Why do manufacturers hate Yaw?

[umbabrahattasil]

Why is Yaw so much slower than Roll/Pitch? Especially in a vacuum?

If the logic is that the thrusters apply a different amount of thrust for different rotational directions, okay, fine...but then follow me along that train of thought to:

Why would ship manufacturers build them that way in the first place? Wouldn't equal displacement be the goal if you're building a refined machine for use in flipping space? Forgive me if this question is rooted too much "in character" or lore.

How would equal rotational speed on EVERY AXIS not be a great advantage and selling point for a company? You could literally build an amazing marketing campaign off of it. Signs in stations saying "All directions are created equal with Lakon" etc.

It could clearly be done and achievable given the technology, and things like power distribution.

Like the way the ships are now, if a manufacturer released a version of the same ship but the Yaw speed was equal to the roll/rotation speed, try to tell me with a straight face that it wouldn't sell 100x better than the old version...

 

[Ozram]

BecUse we are mammals, not fish!

 

[Bortas]

Get a dropship or a T-7

 

[umbabrahattasil]

I guess it's foolish of me to go against "Planes in space"...I get it..

But unless there's a lore/mechanical/mathematical explanation, the way Yaw behaves now should only happen in actual atmospheric flight with rudders on the tail, etc.

 

[umbabrahattasil]

Get a dropship or a T-7

Y'know what, thanks. I'm not trying to bash or anything - I'll give these a shot, as they're two of the only ships I don't fly frequently.

Still doesn't make sense for all other models, particularly more expensive ones.

 

[da_wae]

Why is Yaw so much slower than Roll/Pitch? Especially in a vacuum?

If the logic is that the thrusters apply a different amount of thrust for different rotational directions, okay, fine...but then follow me along that train of thought to:

Why would ship manufacturers build them that way in the first place? Wouldn't equal displacement be the goal if you're building a refined machine for use in flipping space? Forgive me if this question is rooted too much "in character" or lore.

How would equal rotational speed on EVERY AXIS not be a great advantage and selling point for a company? You could literally build an amazing marketing campaign off of it. Signs in stations saying "All directions are created equal with Lakon" etc.

It could clearly be done and achievable given the technology, and things like power distribution.

Like the way the ships are now, if a manufacturer released a version of the same ship but the Yaw speed was equal to the roll/rotation speed, try to tell me with a straight face that it wouldn't sell 100x better than the old version...

Because folks cried hard enough during the Beta (when yaw was comparable to pitch), that ships flew like "turrets in space" (which is how they're supposed to fly), and it made combat not feel like Star Wars airplanes in space.

Not everyone approves of the "airplanes in space" approach, trust me. But the "airplanes in space" folks were the loudest cry-babies and FDEV capitulated to them.

 

[metatheurgist]

Because folks cried hard enough during the Beta (when yaw was comparable to pitch), that ships flew like "turrets in space" (which is how they're supposed to fly),

Dude, that never happened. The flight model was always how it is, because that was the lesson learned from Frontier.

 

[n4p0l3on]

Because folks cried hard enough during the Beta (when yaw was comparable to pitch), that ships flew like "turrets in space" (which is how they're supposed to fly), and it made combat not feel like Star Wars airplanes in space.

Not everyone approves of the "airplanes in space" approach, trust me. But the "airplanes in space" folks were the loudest cry-babies and FDEV capitulated to them.

If they give me turrets in space then I want space bvr combat too. How many would resist it like they resisted airplane/turrets in space?

 

[da_wae]

Dude, that never happened. The flight model was always how it is, because that was the lesson learned from Frontier.

No, it wasn't. There was a period during the Beta where yaw and pitch were comparable. But people complained about "turrets in space" and they artificially nerfed yaw to force people to roll and pitch in space [haha] [haha]

 

[da_wae]

If they give me turrets in space then I want space bvr combat too. How many would resist it like they resisted airplane/turrets in space?

I wouldn't know, since we're discussing yaw nerfing, not BVR combat. Please don't try to derail the thread.

 

[Bortas]

No, it wasn't. There was a period during the Beta where yaw and pitch were comparable. But people complained about "turrets in space" and they artificially nerfed yaw to force people to roll and pitch in space [haha] [haha]

Don't know if you played the original Elite from 1984, but there was no yaw at all. Elite's flight model was always based on pitch and roll. You should be grateful that our ships can yaw at all

 

[da_wae]

Don't know if you played the original Elite from 1984, but there was no yaw at all. Elite's flight model was always based on pitch and roll. You should be grateful that our ships can yaw at all

Tons of things changed from the original Elite. FDEV was initially going to implement the ED flight model more realistically until people complained that a 2012 game wasn't enough like a game from 1984.

Edit: Also don't forget there's already games in the franchise with realistic yaw models, like Frontier: Elite 2. There would be no internal inconsistency by having it in ED.

 

[Asp Explorer]

No, it wasn't. There was a period during the Beta where yaw and pitch were comparable. But people complained about "turrets in space" and they artificially nerfed yaw to force people to roll and pitch in space [haha] [haha]

You wouldn't happen to know which build that was, do you? Because I recall no such thing since Alpha unless, of course, it was during the SOSOD times.

 

[Ozram]

I wouldn't know, since we're discussing yaw nerfing, not BVR combat. Please don't try to derail the thread.

I recal something about trying to simulate dogfights and that if full rotation were possible at speed then fights would end up (yes, turrets in space) as simple circle strafe interactions where it would not be possible to outmaneuver an opponent, but rather who could keep on target the longest. This is also why reverse top speed is lower than forward (why we have current max speeds etc). That’s how I remember it anyway. I’m not endorsing nor condemning this.
On a side note, the human body can handle pitch better than it can yaw. Not that realism is really at play here (hence my statement on mammals vs fish).

 

[da_wae]

You wouldn't happen to know which build that was, do you? Because I recall no such thing since Alpha unless, of course, it was during the SOSOD times.

Alpha, Beta - it's irrelevant. All it matters is that it was pre-release.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

It doesn’t matter really. What’s actually the problem is binding yaw to the twist axis instead of old school video game x axis. If you set it up like the 90s the lack of response doesn’t effect you.

First thing I did when starting elite actually.

 

[da_wae]

I recal something about trying to simulate dogfights and that if full rotation were possible at speed then fights would end up (yes, turrets in space) as simple circle strafe interactions where it would not be possible to outmaneuver an opponent, but rather who could keep on target the longest. This is also why reverse top speed is lower than forward (why we have current max speeds etc). That’s how I remember it anyway. I’m not endorsing nor condemning this.
On a side note, the human body can handle pitch better than it can yaw. Not that realism is really at play here (hence my statement on mammals vs fish).

Tons of concessions were made to appease people who wanted airplanes in space, instead of space ships. There's no inherent superior or inferior model - it's all subjective.

However, one is realistic for the zero-G / vacuum conditions of space, the other one is not.

 

[da_wae]

It doesn’t matter really. What’s actually the problem is binding yaw to the twist axis instead of old school video game x axis. If you set it up like the 90s the lack of response doesn’t effect you.

First thing I did when starting elite actually.

That definitely helps. My yaw is in the "X" axis, and my rotation / roll is in the twist axis. Makes a world of difference.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

If they give me turrets in space then I want space bvr combat too. How many would resist it like they resisted airplane/turrets in space?

You would hear the scream in Andromeda...

 

[Valorin]

My guess is, it's because of the way Frontier wanted combat to be. It's again the balance of the pew pew... I'd love to have an accurate flight model.

Apart from that: thrusters to the side are weaker because most ships are build roughly disc like. Not really a satisfying explanation, but well... In the end you will get used to it and it works very well.