Why Do Players WANT to Keep Old Ships

[CMDR Voron]

I’ve noticed that while many players want any kind of forward movement on Elite, there seems to be a very opinionated and vocal group that just… really wants everything to stay the same and doesn’t want new ships.

I really do not understand this logic and I am seriously open to hearing about it.

Elite Dangerous is 11 years old. It struck me hard the yesterday when I was ship shopping and compared the design on the Cobra Mk IV and Mk V. The older ship LOOKs its age in design.

So here is my take. I suspect that most people protesting new ships and power creep have probably replaced their actual car in the last 11 years. Probably because their old car started to look dated and now they have a new car that is somehow improved.

I get the appeal of KEEPING old ships in the game, like coming across a retro Dodge Charger and not knowing if it has 80 horsepower or 800. But the current ships can never get that vintage position if new, better stuff doesn’t come out.

Even if you think the FDL is the god of all ships and you are the god of pilots, are you really THAT invested in maintaining that pole position? The life blood of the game is coming up with new builds and designs and then trying them out. Wouldnt you at least want a NEW FDL? I am afraid I just do not understand the logic.

I hear a lot of people say “I don’t want to grind again” … well what do you do then? I am genuinely asking. From what I can tell, this game essentially IS grinding. So what are you doing in your masterwork ship?

Idk, just wanted to collect thoughts on the matter. I am probably the weird one, I also do not, at all, understand the appeal of fleet carriers. It’s like some people got on the mental treadmill of chasing that next bigger badder ship and … just kept on it until they got fleet carries. I am sure they’re good for BGS stuff, but… to play with?

 

[sidereal6]

there seems to be a very opinionated and vocal group that just… really wants everything to stay the same and doesn’t want new ships.

Is that really a thing? I find that hard to believe. If what you say is true, please link me to the thread where people don’t want new ship. If you don’t I’m just going to assume you’re mistaken

 

[thistle]

I’ve noticed that while many players want any kind of forward movement on Elite, there seems to be a very opinionated and vocal group that just… really wants everything to stay the same and doesn’t want new ships.

I really do not understand this logic and I am seriously open to hearing about it.

Elite Dangerous is 11 years old. It struck me hard the yesterday when I was ship shopping and compared the design on the Cobra Mk IV and Mk V. The older ship LOOKs its age in design.

So here is my take. I suspect that most people protesting new ships and power creep have probably replaced their actual car in the last 11 years. Probably because their old car started to look dated and now they have a new car that is somehow improved.

I get the appeal of KEEPING old ships in the game, like coming across a retro Dodge Charger and not knowing if it has 80 horsepower or 800. But the current ships can never get that vintage position if new, better stuff doesn’t come out.

Even if you think the FDL is the god of all ships and you are the god of pilots, are you really THAT invested in maintaining that pole position? The life blood of the game is coming up with new builds and designs and then trying them out. Wouldnt you at least want a NEW FDL? I am afraid I just do not understand the logic.

I hear a lot of people say “I don’t want to grind again” … well what do you do then? I am genuinely asking. From what I can tell, this game essentially IS grinding. So what are you doing in your masterwork ship?

Idk, just wanted to collect thoughts on the matter. I am probably the weird one, I also do not, at all, understand the appeal of fleet carriers. It’s like some people got on the mental treadmill of chasing that next bigger badder ship and … just kept on it until they got fleet carries. I am sure they’re good for BGS stuff, but… to play with?

Why do you care if others like existing ships?

But to answer to your question, each ship is different and different people like different things. I still fly the Cobra mkIII, and the DBX, and the Vulture.

Because I like them.

And no the life blood of the game is not coming up with new builds of ships, not for me.

 

[nemolomen]

I’ve noticed that while many players want any kind of forward movement on Elite, there seems to be a very opinionated and vocal group that just… really wants everything to stay the same and doesn’t want new ships.

Lots of players have varied opinions, competing or otherwise...

I am probably the weird one, I also do not, at all, understand the appeal of fleet carriers. It’s like some people got on the mental treadmill of chasing that next bigger badder ship and … just kept on it until they got fleet carries. I am sure they’re good for BGS stuff, but… to play with?

Carriers are game changing. They make many things more accessible and easier to accomplish. Its not about having the biggest, its about having something useful...

 

[Cmdr Esteban]

My only gripe is I never see NPCs flying the new ships.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I’ve noticed that while many players want any kind of forward movement on Elite, there seems to be a very opinionated and vocal group that just… really wants everything to stay the same and doesn’t want new ships.

Not seen anyone saying they don't want new ships. There might be some people who say they'd prefer FD to spend their resources on other things, which i can understand. We do have over 40 ships and every role is covered many times over, so there is little functional need for more ships, unless those new ships do something better than the existing ones, and that is the road to power creep that happens to some games.

You're also conflating some people who might not care about new ships with those people not wanting forward momentum on Elite. I've never seen anyone say they don't want more stuff in ED.

See these kinds of strawmen posts in topics about ship interiors all the time.

"I'd rather FD not do ship interiors, I'd prefer them to put their efforts elsewhere"
"Why don't you want FD to improve the game?"

In short, it seems like most people are happy to have new ships, but some people probably would like to see FD spend those resources on other things to improve the game.

Thing is, as Store Citizen has shown us, ships generate money.

The question might be, when should FD stop adding new ships? At 50? At 100? At 500? When is enough, enough?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

My only gripe is I never see NPCs flying the new ships.

They are out there. Saw an NPC in a CM5 the other day.

 

[Aratac]

When the new panther clipper comes out, it might be worth rethinking the function of the obsolete freighters. I would like to see the cutter and T9 reimagined as planetary surface freighter dive bombers. You fly at the surface port from directly above, and then scream down to the surface from orbital cruise at 130km/sec before the brakes are auto applied, screaming out like a stuka with sirens, before coming to a stop a few seconds later 7km from the port. That would sound pretty cool and let the inhabitants know the next pickup for CMM's has arrived.

 

[Screemonster]

I never see people saying they don't want new ships.

The most I tend to see is people being upset that the new ships are so good that they render their existing ships obsolete - the cobra mk5 for instance is a direct upgrade in literally every metric from the trusty viper mk4 I've been flying as my main ship since shortly after Odyssey dropped.

 

[Cosmo]

The old ship models don't look great anymore. It needs a graphics upgrade (more polygons, smooth curves and higher resolution textures). This became more noticeable with first person view in Odyssey.

 

[Morbad]

So here is my take. I suspect that most people protesting new ships and power creep have probably replaced their actual car in the last 11 years. Probably because their old car started to look dated and now they have a new car that is somehow improved.

I'm not sure what such analogies have to do with the game.

I find some degree of 'power creep' inevitable in reality, but that doesn't mean it needs to be inevitable in my games.

Even if one was trying to emulate the trajectory of progress that contemporary reality is experiencing across various fields (which is not guaranteed to continue on it's hyperbolic course forever), purely inflationary progress would still be implausible. I will personally never buy another automobile made after 1980 because planned obsolescence, increased complexity, a reduction in personal control, and rapidly increasing attack surface, are all downsides that significantly outweigh increased fuel economy and lower insurance premiums, from my particular perspective.

Even if you think the FDL is the god of all ships and you are the god of pilots, are you really THAT invested in maintaining that pole position? The life blood of the game is coming up with new builds and designs and then trying them out. Wouldnt you at least want a NEW FDL? I am afraid I just do not understand the logic.

I want the old FDL back because I think the buff it was given in 1.5 was bad for game balance and bad for my enjoyment of piloting the FDL. It significantly degraded the unique character of the vessel as well as making it far more common than it should have been.

I'm also not eager for the FDL to be replaced. I'm fine with new ships, even a large number of new ships, but I do not think they should be depreciating old ships.

Inflationary releases are naked money grabs that tend to reduce the number of actually viable vessels. I want more options as well as more ships.

I hear a lot of people say “I don’t want to grind again” … well what do you do then? I am genuinely asking. From what I can tell, this game essentially IS grinding.

Ship acquisition and outfitting hasn't really been a grind in a very long time.

Regardless, I don't like grindy gameplay and there is a lot of senseless busywork I would excise from the game, were it up to me. I do like expenses, risk, upkeep, and attrition, but only as vehicles to control inflation and depict a credible setting, for the purpose of setting the stage for more meaningful gameplay.

So what are you doing in your masterwork ship?

Flying them.

 

[metatheurgist]

I never see people saying they don't want new ships.

The most I tend to see is people being upset that the new ships are so good that they render their existing ships obsolete - the cobra mk5 for instance is a direct upgrade in literally every metric from the trusty viper mk4 I've been flying as my main ship since shortly after Odyssey dropped.

irl vehicles serve purposes. They serve a price range - rendered completely nonsensical by the blown-out economy. They serve a purpose - which ED ships don't do because there is no real tie between ships and function/gameplay. So what purpose do new ships serve? Powercreep.

 

[Greasetrap42]

So here is my take. I suspect that most people protesting new ships and power creep have probably replaced their actual car in the last 11 years. Probably because their old car started to look dated and now they have a new car that is somehow improved.

Bad comparison and I don't see relevance. IRL cars degrade with time. Most people don't replace their car because "it looks dated". It gets replaced because it works like crap, it has become a rust bucket, too expensive to fix, or got written off by insurance. Whereas ED spaceships are 100% good-as-new every time we dock.

I wasn't aware that people don't want new spaceships. New ships are good. But regarding the thread title, yeah, I certainly want to keep my old ships. I don't want my old ships removed from the game. Yes, I WANT to keep my old ships.

 

[GraXXoR]

First up, I feel that there are several straw men in this post that have been mixed in with some personal views before being presented as fact rather than opinion...

I’ve noticed that while many players want any kind of forward movement on Elite, there seems to be a very opinionated and vocal group that just… really wants everything to stay the same and doesn’t want new ships.

I, personally, have been reading this forum for years and usually > 5 times a week but I have not yet seen a person write what you've just stated above.

"I want everything to stay the same" <-- This is a quote I have not seen...
"I don't want new ships" <-- This is another quote that I have not seen...

Elite Dangerous is 11 years old. It struck me hard the yesterday when I was ship shopping and compared the design on the Cobra Mk IV and Mk V. The older ship LOOKs its age in design.

"looks its age in design" .... ok... so the looks of the new ships are liked. That is good.

So here is my take. I suspect that most people protesting new ships and power creep have probably replaced their actual car in the last 11 years.

Now, after setting up the clear premise, the goalposts suddenly move to: "I suspect people protesting new ships and power creep"...

Classic bait and switch. Make a bold claim then move the argument from the opening barrage to a far less controversial point. This is a much more nuanced topic... and one which has some merit. But then a sudden Car Analogy... Second only to "Sporting Analogies", car analogies are one of the best ways to lose an argument...

Probably because their old car started to look dated and now they have a new car that is somehow improved.

Or probably because the old car is now actually old and starting to creak or rust or have bad mornings where it doesn't start first time...
And now there is increasingly expensive maintenance and insurance to contend with.
But often it's just because the driver themselves have grown up (or older) and matured to the point where they want something more commensurate with their age or current status (families, promotions, lottery win, job loss, health issues, disposable income adjustments)...

Digital ships on the other hand do not age, rust or need more and more expensive maintenance.

I get the appeal of KEEPING old ships in the game, like coming across a retro Dodge Charger and not knowing if it has 80 horsepower or 800. But the current ships can never get that vintage position if new, better stuff doesn’t come out.

Again with the cars? Somehow desire for vintage slid into the argument... everyone wants vintage... but can't have vintage unless... change...

Anyway, here's my rebuttal.

IMO the posts I've generally seen are often saying something along the lines of... The new ships invalidate many of the older ships entirely leaving no niche for them.
Up until recently, most ships had something that they could do better than most other ships (Alec Turner's best of the Web thread used to link to a post which erm... posted... where and in what role each ship excelled) but now, most are obsolete. It's indeed the power creep that seems to have some posters (me included) rankled somewhat.

---

FWIW, here are my personal views on the matter, feel free to ignore it since it's tangential to the argument above:

Spoiler: opinion/rant

I would argue it's not new ships that is the spice of life, but the sheer diversity of how ships are used (and abused) that makes this game so much fun... There's always that spicy build that does something completely unexpected, brilliant or outright ridiculous.

Now, though, you have a small number of ships that don't just have a slight edge but remarkably excel at nearly everything. Since credits are basically limitless in this game, cost performance ratio is similarly meaningless. This leaves dozens of older ships without any role to play other than for completionists or people with nostalgia.

There were already a few outlier, borderline WTH??? ships out there (Asp Scout and the Diamonback Scout spring to mind) but with the new ships, a whole raft of game content becomes irrelevant.

My hope is that FDEV will somehow provide future buffs to the older ships to partially address the huge deficit they now have, but since they never fixed the T7's loss of M sized landing capabilities back in 2014, I'm not holding my breath.

It's sad to me that many new players arriving in the game with have no idea why anyone uses anything other than the new ships... consigning 11 years of history to the dustbin.

Cheers.

Even if you think the FDL is the god of all ships and you are the god of pilots, are you really THAT invested in maintaining that pole position? The life blood of the game is coming up with new builds and designs and then trying them out. Wouldnt you at least want a NEW FDL? I am afraid I just do not understand the logic.

I hear a lot of people say “I don’t want to grind again” … well what do you do then? I am genuinely asking. From what I can tell, this game essentially IS grinding. So what are you doing in your masterwork ship?

Idk, just wanted to collect thoughts on the matter. I am probably the weird one, I also do not, at all, understand the appeal of fleet carriers. It’s like some people got on the mental treadmill of chasing that next bigger badder ship and … just kept on it until they got fleet carries. I am sure they’re good for BGS stuff, but… to play with?

 

[Narfiam]

I didn't hear about that vocal group, I've never seen literally anyone not wanting new ships, mostly considering that before the Python Mk2 the last released ship was Mamba in 2018 if I remember correctly. The game desperately needed new ships imo, and I like the new politic os releasing new ships frequently and I want them to keep doing so, ships are the main feature of the game so made no sense not releasing new ships for years. I'm looking forward for a new large combat ship!

 

[PilotB]

I tried a lot of ships to find ones with flight models and hardpoint layouts that are actually fun to fly. They can upgrade the ships. They can add new ships. Not all of them are fun or nice to fly. The python 2 isn't a replacement for the FDL or Mamba. I dislike the artificial scarcity of the paid pre release periods and making old ships obnoxious in SCO to encourage payment but one of the charm factors of ED is that you have many viable ships for a role and can pick what fits you. The new ships don't yet provide that flexibility. Maybe they will but I suspect we'll never get that many so getting the old ships upgraded to SCO standard is going to be important for having a healthy array of options.

 

[Shadowsnog]

you almost make it sound like old ships were being removed from the game.
in regards to the powercreep, thats almost never a good thing for any game but my aversion is in the case of elite more principled than practical. they seem to have a pretty good knack at keeping it somewhat tame.
new gen ships are better, but arent really that much of a powercreep (at least so far). with the exception of godcobra. but as its a small ship and its cultural, historical and sentimental importance, there couldnt be better one to be risen to godhood.
though i can for sure tell you that unless there is a ship in a special position of any kind, it will get replaced. terms and conditions apply.
for example py2 is considered the fdl2, yet both (from what ive heard) have their strengths and weaknesses. so its more like a competitor rather than replacement.
large ships have their own position in the fleet, yet seems like that might soon be contested as well. in those terms we will see what the future brings. until then, corvette is still a corvette.
eagle is still great fun to fly. dbs still has the lowest thermal signature and when im not in the mood for a ship that flails at the simplest touch of controls, i fly dbx as a jumper over manda. fully engineered vulture is still a beast of a combat ship and in the right hands it is an absolute menace. when i want to practice fa-off only combat i usually take out the slugrail chally and when i need large module mule, i dust off the conda.
though with the corsair i have pretty much definitely retired kr2 and py1 in almost all their roles, thats without a doubt. i think i still preffer fully combat focused python over corsair as a dedicated czs runner.

 

[Alone Wulff]

I haven't seen any complaining about FDev giving us new ships. Complaints about how we have to pay real money to get them 'first', yes (I understand and appreciate that paid content supports the devs). Complaints that they're not that great, yes.

I've purchased two new ships so far with ARX. The Mandalay has replaced my DBX for exploring/exobiology and the Corsair has replaced my Python as a multi-role. BUT - I don't like them very much and the only reason I use them is because of the stabilised SCO. For me, given the technological advancements within the game-world, the worst thing about the game is how long it takes to travel in SC and even now, STILL how long it takes to travel the last 30ls. I'd rather do it stabilised though, I hate the bobbing and weaving of the SCO FSD.

I still prefer my Krait for combat and my Type-9 for hauling. I don't like the cockpit view or handling of the Mandalay. I don't like the SC handling or actual looks of the Corsair (too Imperial for me...). But I use them because it takes some of the grind out of travelling - stabilised.

I, like some others, would've been happy with the SCO FSD being stabilised from the beginning so I can keep using my preferred ships and not get seasick.

As for Carriers - mine proved its worth on my most recent exploration trip. I didn't have to worry about forgetting to check gravity and blowing myself up and having to restart back in the bubble. I can also store all my ships and modules in one place and jump my carrier to the system I need to be in for concentrated BGS stuff but also for hauling thousands of tons of goods (colonisation).

 

[Jinx Chrome]

When the new panther clipper comes out, it might be worth rethinking the function of the obsolete freighters. I would like to see the cutter and T9 reimagined as planetary surface freighter dive bombers. You fly at the surface port from directly above, and then scream down to the surface from orbital cruise at 130km/sec before the brakes are auto applied, screaming out like a stuka with sirens, before coming to a stop a few seconds later 7km from the port. That would sound pretty cool and let the inhabitants know the next pickup for CMM's has arrived.

Particularly, as sound travels so well in a near vacuum.. What a great experience.
And given the thrusters/mass ratio of a T9, you would only impress the inhabitants by making the next big crater near their settlement.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I think there are very strong reasons for keeping a ship you developed for a practical purpose since you know exactly how it flies because of potentially years of playing with it.

The FdL was mentioned which I think highlights the point exactly. I'm keeping the various builds I've made because these haven't stopped being fun to use and the way they're built means the Python mk2 simply can't replace them. Since we're talking combat ships, SCO is a sideshow to what I'm actually going to do with it as well, so in these situations comes down to what ship I prefer to fly. Would I like a better version of the FdL, well yes. Is there one in the works? No*, so I carry on with what I've got.

The Mandalay is another prime example. Great ship, but for me that cockpit view is not as good as my Krait Phantom for looking for plants.

(*Last I heard was that FDev are done with medium SCO ships- for now at least.)