Ship Builds & Load Outs Why doesn't the (Pre-Engineered) Guardian Shard Cannon get more love ?

[Matt71]

Right now, I'm using this build to hunt cyclops.

There's no RRFL, since I don't care much about the swarm.
This would probably be a fatal mistake against a basikisk, medusa or hydra but, as a matter of fact, the swarm doesn't do much damage to me. Possibly because it is going most of the time against my SLFs.

That being said...

I used to have 2 Guardian Gauss Cannons on the medium hardpoints and recently replaced them with the 2 Pre-Engineered Guardian Shard Cannon.
The difference is HUGE !
Let me explain :
I really had trouble destroying the hearts with the Gauss Cannons, mostly because they don't fire instantly, and it's hard to maintain something on target with the cutter (or at least I find it hard).
On the contrary, the Shard Cannons fire instantly, their projectiles go at 6+ km/s (which is close to being hitscan), and they seem to deal more damage (at least vs a Cyclops, dunno against the others since they may have more amour, and the Gauss has better armour penetration). They also have more ammo...

To me, this is superior in all regards to the Gauss Cannons. And really, the instant fire makes a huge difference, making it much easier to destroy those hearts.

(and when it comes to destoying the hull, the 2 large Shard Cannons shred it in no time)

Am I missing something ?

 

[Matt71]

Seems this thread isn't getting much love too !

Maybe this has been discussed again and again, and this is the reason, but I find it a bit surprising nonetheless, considering how much better the SHARD cannons are, at least for the average pilot.

So, I'll try to elaborate a bit more. I'll consider 2 cases :

1) For someone who cannot reliably keep aim on a heart

For this scenario, we're considering an "average" pilot, who has difficulties maintaining aim on a heart for a few seconds (maybe I should call that pilot a "bad" pilot, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one in this category). In this case, what matters most is to be capable of hitting the heart when you have aim on it. Here, SHARD has a clear advantage over GAUSS : better hitscan abilities (because of instant fire + phenomenal speed > 1.2s charging time + speed of light). Also, the fact that you can fire 5 times in a row favors the SHARD. The spread of the bullets shouldn't be too much of a problem : with 1.5° jitter, you're hitting within a circle of radius 26m when target is 1 km away. I'm not so sure about the size of the hearts, but I'd guess they're larger than that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Here are some figures as well as some comments. I didn't factor in Armour Piercing in this section : although it favors GAUSS, the fact that SHARD vastly outperforms GAUSS in terms of burst damage makes it so that GAUSS will still be behind SHARD if you consider Armour Piercing.

2) For someone who can reliably keep aim on a heart

Now we're considering an "adept" pilot who can maintain aim on a heart. Burst damage isn't relevant anymore, what matters now is sustained DPS (as well as sustained heat and power draw).

First, some considerations on Armor Piercing (AP) : if HULL > AP then damage is multiplied by AP/HULL. Since HULL values seem to be 103, 140, 174 and 228 (Cyclops, Basilisk, Medusa, Hydra respectively), this means that SHARD suffers -13% compared to GAUSS when fighting a Cyclops, and -35% ( = -50/140) when fighting the other variants. We can now compute some sustained values (R stands for AP or the GAUSS/HULL when fighting Basilisks+, and its precise value is irrelevant) :

As one can see, even in terms of sustained DPS, the SHARD seems to be superior to the GAUSS : slightly higher sustained DPS and significantly less power draw, at the cost of slightly higher heat generation.

So, I'm asking the same question again : Am I missing something ?
You're welcome to prove me wrong

 

[Surprize960]

I love the pre-engineered Shards, especially that from the last year‘s CG with 8500 range. I usually use it on a Krait or a Chieftain/Challenger against NPC.

Today I was Scout-hunting in Novas and met a Cyclops in a Threat 5 NHSS in my Krait

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with 2 engineered Shards and 2 AXMC. It was so easy to take out the hearts and finish it.

The „gun-play“ with the Shards feels much better with the PS4 Controller than with the Gauss‘, because you don‘t have to hold the trigger that long.

 

[SergMx]

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs1J8OfFxzs

I, too, am interested in fighting Targoids on large ships rather than the trivial circling of medium-sized ships in fa-off mode

Armor penetration ? I read on the anti-xeno wiki that you have to hit the hull at 4 gauss and as the heart appears switch to 2 gauss.
Maybe armor penetration is about the heart and the hull? Maybe you should hit the hull with gauss and then the heart itself Modification Shard Cannons ?

And I don't quite understand why you're using hull enhancers from guardian 5. They give worse protection.
And at least the interceptor cannon gives phase damage and for some reason you have no protection modules.

 

[Sedum]

This is a really interesting idea. I've never fancied the "FA-off and tap dance around" method, but I'm quite tempted to just go in with four Salvation Shards and see what happens.

 

[Matt71]

@Surprize960 : I'm using a "basic" joystick that has kind of a "dead" zone : if you move the stick just a bit, it has no impact on ship movement. This makes it quite hard to aim precisely. I guess the best solution is either a good joystick or using the mouse (both not on PS4, obviously).

@SergMx : Very interesting video indeed. I was able to reproduce it twice (after a few failed tries). On one of those successful tries, I even managed to end up with 97% hull (but only 50% shields). If I understand it correctly, this trick relies on 2 ideas :

1) After a heart is destroyed and before the shield pops up, you can damage the hull and if you manage to reach 0% then the Thargoïd is down.
2) When the Thargoïd is using its lightning attack, it wont pop a new shield.

So, basically, the sequence is :

• Fire 5 shots to exert and destroy 1st heart.
• Fire 5 shots to bring the shield down (with a bit of help from the laser(s)).
• Fire 5 shots to exert and destroy 2nd heart (while tanking the lightning).
• Fire a few more shots to bring hull to 0% (while still tanking the lightning).

I'm a bit surprised that the video uploader isn't using Large Shard Cannons : All 4 weapons are fitted on the Large Hardpoints, and Large Shard > Engineered Medium Shard.
Also, shield is 2400 MJ, which can be easily taken down with 4 Large (9.5x4x12x5=2280) but not with 4 Medium (6.77x4x12x5=1625).

Funnily, this makes the T10 an excellent ship to fight Cyclops since the ship has 4 Large Hardpoints.
I also wonder if it would be possible, with a wing of 2, to have one person exert the 1st heart and the 2nd person bring hull to 0% before the 1st shield pops up.

As to answer your questions :

The Hull and the Hearts have the same armor rating (103 for a Cyclops). Hull integrity is roughly 800 and Heart Integrity is 42+/-1. See here.
Shard Cannons work well for both the Hull and the Hearts.

I'm using Gardian Hull Reinforcements because they provide Caustic Resistance and all Thargoïd damage is Caustic. Overall, that's a little gain compared to G5 standard Hull Reinforcements, if you already have some good Hull (so you need to have some G5 standard Hull Reinforcements).

As long as shields are up, modules suffer very little damage/malfunction. So Module Reinforcements are not really needed.

That was an interesting side-track, but my initial question remains : I'm under the firm impression that Engineered Shard Cannons outperform Gauss Cannons (both Medium Size), even when it comes to sustained DPS. I provided some solid argument (or at least I tried to). Is there a flaw in that argument ?

Edit : Just noticed that Pre-Engineered Medium Shard Cannons are, surprisingly, superior to Large Shard Cannons (except vs shields), due to higher Armour Piercing (90.9 vs 60).

 

[SergMx]

@Surprize960 : I'm using a "basic" joystick that has kind of a "dead" zone : if you move the stick just a bit, it has no impact on ship movement. This makes it quite hard to aim precisely. I guess the best solution is either a good joystick or using the mouse (both not on PS4, obviously).

@SergMx : Very interesting video indeed. I was able to reproduce it twice (after a few failed tries). On one of those successful tries, I even managed to end up with 97% hull (but only 50% shields). If I understand it correctly, this trick relies on 2 ideas :

1) After a heart is destroyed and before the shield pops up, you can damage the hull and if you manage to reach 0% then the Thargoïd is down.
2) When the Thargoïd is using its lightning attack, it wont pop a new shield.

So, basically, the sequence is :

• Fire 5 shots to exert and destroy 1st heart.
• Fire 5 shots to bring the shield down (with a bit of help from the laser(s)).
• Fire 5 shots to exert and destroy 2nd heart (while tanking the lightning).
• Fire a few more shots to bring hull to 0% (while still tanking the lightning).

I'm a bit surprised that the video uploader isn't using Large Shard Cannons : All 4 weapons are fitted on the Large Hardpoints, and Large Shard > Engineered Medium Shard.
Also, shield is 2400 MJ, which can be easily taken down with 4 Large (9.5x4x12x5=2280) but not with 4 Medium (6.77x4x12x5=1625).

Funnily, this makes the T10 an excellent ship to fight Cyclops since the ship has 4 Large Hardpoints.
I also wonder if it would be possible, with a wing of 2, to have one person exert the 1st heart and the 2nd person bring hull to 0% before the 1st shield pops up.

As to answer your questions :

The Hull and the Hearts have the same armor rating (103 for a Cyclops). Hull integrity is roughly 800 and Heart Integrity is 42+/-1. See here.
Shard Cannons work well for both the Hull and the Hearts.

I'm using Gardian Hull Reinforcements because they provide Caustic Resistance and all Thargoïd damage is Caustic. Overall, that's a little gain compared to G5 standard Hull Reinforcements, if you already have some good Hull (so you need to have some G5 standard Hull Reinforcements).

As long as shields are up, modules suffer very little damage/malfunction. So Module Reinforcements are not really needed.

That was an interesting side-track, but my initial question remains : I'm under the firm impression that Engineered Shard Cannons outperform Gauss Cannons (both Medium Size), even when it comes to sustained DPS. I provided some solid argument (or at least I tried to). Is there a flaw in that argument ?

Edit : Just noticed that Pre-Engineered Medium Shard Cannons are, surprisingly, superior to Large Shard Cannons (except vs shields), due to higher Armour Piercing (90.9 vs 60).

+1
About the joystick. Although I play on the computer, I have repeatedly written to do something about it. In FA-OFF mode you can not play if the joystick is not perfect. But the developers are ignoring it for some reason, but made the mouse auto-centering, but I do not want to use the mouse as this is not real control of the spacecraft.

I think the T10 is first of all a very large and most importantly durable body and as I understand it is very difficult to overheat.

I don't understand about the case booster.
5D HRP (ing) = 738 > 5D GHRP = 488
It's almost twice as good as regular.

I strongly dislike the reloading of shrapnel guns. I fly a Corvette and its maneuverability is enough to shoot a precise gauss, but when I want to shoot and it says reload I get mad.

 

[Matt71]

I don't understand about the case booster.
5D HRP (ing) = 738 > 5D GHRP = 488
It's almost twice as good as regular.

5D HRP (ing) = 738 // 5D GHRP = 488 + 5% Caustic Resistance.
So, adding a 5D HRP will add 738 Hull // adding a 5D GHRP will add 488 Hull +5% (approx) of total Hull value, which will be greater than 738 is total Hull value is already high enough.

What matters is the figure here :

 

[Matt71]

Also :

+1
About the joystick. Although I play on the computer, I have repeatedly written to do something about it. In FA-OFF mode you can not play if the joystick is not perfect. But the developers are ignoring it for some reason, but made the mouse auto-centering, but I do not want to use the mouse as this is not real control of the spacecraft.

If a joystick is imprecise then nothing can be done, at software level, to change that. It will remain imprecise no matter what you do...

 

[Surprize960]

(…)

Edit : Just noticed that Pre-Engineered Medium Shard Cannons are, surprisingly, superior to Large Shard Cannons (except vs shields), due to higher Armour Piercing (90.9 vs 60).

Yes, they are great. I just bought and fitted out an Anti-Interceptor-Vette with 4 Shards, 2 class 2 and 2 class 1, all are pre engineered CG-rewards.

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Killed 3 Cyclops in less than 20 minutes, never lost shields (with SCBs), ended with 77% hull without “orbiting“ or flying much around. 6-10 salvos for each heart from up to 2 km away. Just so easy

 

[SergMx]

5D HRP (ing) = 738 // 5D GHRP = 488 + 5% Caustic Resistance.
So, adding a 5D HRP will add 738 Hull // adding a 5D GHRP will add 488 Hull +5% (approx) of total Hull value, which will be greater than 738 is total Hull value is already high enough.

What matters is the figure here :

View attachment 305338

As far as I understand this 5 percent is not for the entire case, but only for 1 case amplifier.

All HRP

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Absolute == Caustic == 10436

Change 1HRP to 1GHRP

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Absolute == 10186 and Caustic == 10722

 

[Matt71]

So, you do get more HP vs Caustic with 1 GHRP, don't you ?

 

[SergMx]

So, you do get more HP vs Caustic with 1 GHRP, don't you ?

As far as I know not all damage is caustic from Thargoids.

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[Matt71]

As far as I know not all damage is caustic from Thargoids.

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You've got a point. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that all interceptor's damage was Caustic, but this seems to be wrong.
Thanks for pointing that .

 

[SergMx]

You've got a point. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that all interceptor's damage was Caustic, but this seems to be wrong.
Thanks for pointing that .

I carefully read the article again and saw. Phase damage is damage from the shield. That is, if the assembly without a shield, you need to put all the hull enhancers from the guards. Since the damage from the swarm and cannon will only be acid, and lightning has too little penetration and can not damage the hull ...

 

[Kissamies]

It's the obnoxious reload time. I'd love to run salvation plasma/shard combo because all plasma would be unconfortable for the distro and I dislike boating all of the same weapon anyway. The weapon spends too much time out of action. It's also bit on the weak side. No issue for slowly wearing out the hearts, but I'l like to have bit more oomph when shooting down the clay pigeons that are scouts.

 

[Matt71]

It's the obnoxious reload time. I'd love to run salvation plasma/shard combo because all plasma would be unconfortable for the distro and I dislike boating all of the same weapon anyway. The weapon spends too much time out of action. It's also bit on the weak side. No issue for slowly wearing out the hearts, but I'l like to have bit more oomph when shooting down the clay pigeons that are scouts.

It's true that 5s is a long reload time, nonetheless the modified Shard has better burst and sustained DPS than the Gauss (see above).

Also, there's an easy way to circumvant the 5s reload time : Just have 2 sets of 2 Shards in 2 different weapon groups (plus a 3rd weapon group with all 4, of course).

 

[SergMx]

It's true that 5s is a long reload time, nonetheless the modified Shard has better burst and sustained DPS than the Gauss (see above).

Also, there's an easy way to circumvant the 5s reload time : Just have 2 sets of 2 Shards in 2 different weapon groups (plus a 3rd weapon group with all 4, of course).

2 set, it may reduce the temperature (if it is not linear) but in any case will reduce dps, because instead of 4 we shoot only 2.
I did a no shield Corvette yesterday entirely on the hull amps on guardian.
The hull of the ship damaged very little but a lot of damage to other modules despite the fact that I installed 3 guardian module amplifiers and not one of them completely broke.

 

[Kissamies]

It's true that 5s is a long reload time, nonetheless the modified Shard has better burst and sustained DPS than the Gauss (see above).

Also, there's an easy way to circumvant the 5s reload time : Just have 2 sets of 2 Shards in 2 different weapon groups (plus a 3rd weapon group with all 4, of course).

When I have used the shards, I do this with plasma chargers. The speed difference is neglible, so they have the same lead. However, plasmas are only good for nimble ships that can zip in and out the 1 km effective range. For a big ship the shards may well be better. If our squadron's AX wing ever again grows big enough to have use for a support ship, I'll get my Clipper out of mothballs and try all Salvation shard loadout.

 

[Surprize960]

For those who have not yet noticed: The preengineered Guardian weapons (class 1 and 2) are significantly reduced in terms of the materials required. Class 2 shards only need 5 Guardian technology components instead of 18!