Why I don't like the 'Everyone Pulling Together' approach for the Thargoid War.

The basic approach that the devs and the storyline seems to have taken so far is basically 'everyone needs to pull together and cooperate or we're all going to die'. Which is great if you're in a single player game, trying to get the Stormcloaks and Imperials to cooperate to take down the World Eater, but is not so great for a multiplayer game.

The problem is basically this: The Thargoid War is an arbitrary objective, one set by the Devs to be not so hard we lose immediately, but not so easy all the dev effort is wasted. This is great for keeping the war going long enough for many people to enjoy it, but it has a problem; it's very obvious that this plotline will conclude exactly when the devs decide to have it end. Most players aren't going to believe that we can win the war early, and they also won't believe that the devs will let the goids overrun the bubble - even IF the rate of expansion wasn't predicted to take something like 20 years.

This being the case, what motivation do players have to fight at all? Why push back a progress bar over and over, just to watch it reset - if not now, in a few weeks? While many players will participate purely for the credit rewards, that only can keep players invested for so long, and then they realize the simple truth; the most effective way to win the Thargoid War, is not to play. If players leave, the devs will gradually adjust the war to be balanced for the remaining players, and ultimately, that player will have achieved exactly the same results with zero personal effort.

But what if there were a better way? Fighting against a progress bar is boring and uninspiring, but something that drives massive participation is player vs player conflict. The best way, in my mind, to encourage participation in the Thargoid War isn't by encouraging teamwork, but rather to encourage competition! Take the Empire and the Federation, for example. They both want to beat the Thargoids and defend their systems, but a big part of that is not becoming weaker than their ancestral enemies. If the Empire is driven back too far, they might be at risk of being conquered by the Federation, 'for their own protection'. And the same feeling works in reverse, too.

By encouraging competition between different Powers and Superpowers, players could be encouraged to protect specific areas, fighting against specific maelstroms to protect their Power or Superpower.
This has various benefits.

For one, it makes the entire fight much more manageable. Every week, there are more systems to defend than can be defended, so it's easy to get overwhelmed and feel like you're making no progress or losing ground. By contrast, a single maelstrom is a much more reasonable and manageable thing, and players could actually envision themselves being able to stop it.

For two, it naturally guides players to where they want to fight. The current system has players running hundreds of light years across the bubble, as one top system is beaten and the next one comes up. Needing to plot a fleet carrier jump for every new system fight, or needing to swap ships and wait for a ship transfer, seriously discourages serial participation.

And also, the current system heavily leans towards the easiest targets to defend. High-g planets, for example, are almost entirely avoided because of their danger, and because there's almost always a better target. By focusing players on smaller areas, it forces them to fight in diverse and interesting places, as well as exploring different ways to locate thargoids to fight, such as if there's no attacked station available.

On the whole, it'd be really nice if the game did more to compare and contrast how different Powers and Superpowers were doing RELATIVE to one another. Ideally, they'd have reworked Powerplay a few months before the Thargoid War kicked off, and used the War as a way to seal the fresh loyalties, but that's water under the bridge now. Still, it'd be nice to see that considered going forward.

Players need fights that feel meaningful, and fighting a progress bar is not a very good long-term strategy to achieve that. The best way to encourage players has always been getting them to fight each other.
 
Well I was think that the other day but slightly differently.. if there was a way to support the thargoids, he’ll yes I would be active.

Having said, implementing that is probably much harder than it sounds.. maybe in pve after a while some thargoid forces would show up like system authority to help finish the battle?

Yes the fact we would be going in circles until frontier was finished with us was apparent from day 1. Remember the Golconda where players would actively make a difference? How frontier was DMing the experience was completely different.
 
This is a problem of their own making. First, way to disenfranchise anyone not in a PMF. Second, they had years to build good, decent galaxy wide war mechanics into the game (we all knew this was coming from day one), they could've called it Powerplay. Had the mechanics be solid, well developed and well understood by all participating so every single person knew how they could contribute to the war effort. And all well understood enough that players wouldn't feel like they were going to get kited or played or jerked around by half-baked on the run game development. Too late now.

I'm half tempted just to sit back and watch it all burn for lols.
 
Players need fights that feel meaningful, and fighting a progress bar is not a very good long-term strategy to achieve that. The best way to encourage players has always been getting them to fight each other.
I agree about the first bit, but not about the last one. Before the war, I haven't played for almost 2 years exactly because everything was meaningless, inconsequential. It makes absolutely zero difference whether one particular system is controlled by Feds or Imps or Yuri Grom or whoever. Creating an arbitrary PvP conflict is unlikely to change that.

Remember that Babylon 5 episode about the Drazi "elections" where everyone randomly grabs a green or purple sash and then fights the other side tooth and nails for a year, for no other reason than you got green and they got purple? This is what your proposal feels like.

Secondly, PvP is not the be all, end all for player involvement. In a game like ED, where PvP combat is completely unbalanced for a number of reasons, I stay away from it entirely.
 
I agree about the first bit, but not about the last one. Before the war, I haven't played for almost 2 years exactly because everything was meaningless, inconsequential. It makes absolutely zero difference whether one particular system is controlled by Feds or Imps or Yuri Grom or whoever. Creating an arbitrary PvP conflict is unlikely to change that.

Remember that Babylon 5 episode about the Drazi "elections" where everyone randomly grabs a green or purple sash and then fights the other side tooth and nails for a year, for no other reason than you got green and they got purple? This is what your proposal feels like.

Secondly, PvP is not the be all, end all for player involvement. In a game like ED, where PvP combat is completely unbalanced for a number of reasons, I stay away from it entirely.

Sorry, I didn't say that quite right. I didn't mean pvp as in the actual combat; rather, pvp as in community goals and the like. Player vs player competition.

Where the consequence could come in is how the galnet stories progress. If the Imperials are winning, maybe they start getting more Imperial AX tech, like AX shielding or something. Just by having small amounts of content based around the ingame events controlled by players, you can strongly encourage participation.
 
The basic approach that the devs and the storyline seems to have taken so far is basically 'everyone needs to pull together and cooperate or we're all going to die'. Which is great if you're in a single player game, trying to get the Stormcloaks and Imperials to cooperate to take down the World Eater, but is not so great for a multiplayer game.

Is it? I think it's not
Basically it's something to do for the people that like to get into stuff like BGS and Powerplay. With daily and weekly objectives, quotas to make, etc.
Also something that other people, with a less focused gameplay, can lend a hand when and where they feel like it.
Get into combat here and there, do some missions (evac, cargo, restore, etc). Every bit helps even tho it's not done in an organized way. The Galmap can lead this individual action pretty nicely.

And it's not a pvp war, it's a pve war and we're not imperials or feds or alliance, we're members of the Pilots Federation helping the humanity against the common enemy
 
Basically it's something to do for the people that like to get into stuff like BGS and Powerplay.
The problem is, since BGS factions tend to be so independent and disconnected, and since most BGS factions are incapable of defending themselves without outside support, we've instead seen several long-term factions basically just quit, because their effort and work has been wiped out in a few weeks or months. Powerplay has seen a similar effect, with many long-fought gains being sucked away, multiplied by the fact they don't really have time to haul AND fight.

And it's not a pvp war, it's a pve war and we're not imperials or feds or alliance, we're members of the Pilots Federation helping the humanity against the common enemy

That's basically what I was trying to say. But only to point out how problematic it is. What's the point in fighting a war that can't be won until Fdev flip the right switch?

That's the nice thing about competing against other players; it's inherently balanced, since everyone has the same theoretical amount of time and effort to invest. If your side has 100 people and their side has 100 people, it's just a matter of your side investing a bit more time and effort in order to win.

'Winning' in this case being, surviving better against the thargoids. If the goids take 10 imperial systems but only 5 federal ones, the feds are winning, no matter who's doing the actual destroying.
 
Until PvP and engineering has some serious changes working together is good for the game as its bringing players together to do things if they wish. Organised PvP is fine within defined rule sets but I gave up on random PvP a long time ago. Engineering unbalanced it way too much and shut the door on a lot of players. There's little or no reward piracy doesn't work 95% of players combat log so you cannot make money that way. If you're a bad guy there's no career path or reason to be a bad guy other than fun. So so much potential here within this great game.

In my view the multiplayer aspect in Elite beyond organised coop and wing missions needs a lot doing to it. I would love Frontier to create a PvP or coop mission board like "the other space" game not just Wing missions that we have now. I see no reason why we cannot have an instanced multiplayer mission board. Place hub stations with this board around the galaxy players get access to once they achieve a certain combat rank. Refresh missions every 30 minutes. 8 players sign up for search and recovery for example... ie go to a number of systems or planets hunt for cargo or containers. Players who bring back the most get the win... players can either join in a wing work together or go solo and take a risk. Rewards credits, materials and a PvP type rank seperate to combat rank.

You could have a mission where players have to race to destory targets or protect targets. That could be fun! Pirate faction have placed turrets in a mining area one team has to protect the turrets the other has to destory them. So much potential!
 
The basic approach that the devs and the storyline seems to have taken so far is basically 'everyone needs to pull together and cooperate or we're all going to die'. Which is great if you're in a single player game, trying to get the Stormcloaks and Imperials to cooperate to take down the World Eater, but is not so great for a multiplayer game.

The problem is basically this: The Thargoid War is an arbitrary objective, one set by the Devs to be not so hard we lose immediately, but not so easy all the dev effort is wasted. This is great for keeping the war going long enough for many people to enjoy it, but it has a problem; it's very obvious that this plotline will conclude exactly when the devs decide to have it end. Most players aren't going to believe that we can win the war early, and they also won't believe that the devs will let the goids overrun the bubble - even IF the rate of expansion wasn't predicted to take something like 20 years.

This being the case, what motivation do players have to fight at all? Why push back a progress bar over and over, just to watch it reset - if not now, in a few weeks? While many players will participate purely for the credit rewards, that only can keep players invested for so long, and then they realize the simple truth; the most effective way to win the Thargoid War, is not to play. If players leave, the devs will gradually adjust the war to be balanced for the remaining players, and ultimately, that player will have achieved exactly the same results with zero personal effort.

But what if there were a better way? Fighting against a progress bar is boring and uninspiring, but something that drives massive participation is player vs player conflict. The best way, in my mind, to encourage participation in the Thargoid War isn't by encouraging teamwork, but rather to encourage competition! Take the Empire and the Federation, for example. They both want to beat the Thargoids and defend their systems, but a big part of that is not becoming weaker than their ancestral enemies. If the Empire is driven back too far, they might be at risk of being conquered by the Federation, 'for their own protection'. And the same feeling works in reverse, too.

By encouraging competition between different Powers and Superpowers, players could be encouraged to protect specific areas, fighting against specific maelstroms to protect their Power or Superpower.
This has various benefits.

For one, it makes the entire fight much more manageable. Every week, there are more systems to defend than can be defended, so it's easy to get overwhelmed and feel like you're making no progress or losing ground. By contrast, a single maelstrom is a much more reasonable and manageable thing, and players could actually envision themselves being able to stop it.

For two, it naturally guides players to where they want to fight. The current system has players running hundreds of light years across the bubble, as one top system is beaten and the next one comes up. Needing to plot a fleet carrier jump for every new system fight, or needing to swap ships and wait for a ship transfer, seriously discourages serial participation.

And also, the current system heavily leans towards the easiest targets to defend. High-g planets, for example, are almost entirely avoided because of their danger, and because there's almost always a better target. By focusing players on smaller areas, it forces them to fight in diverse and interesting places, as well as exploring different ways to locate thargoids to fight, such as if there's no attacked station available.

On the whole, it'd be really nice if the game did more to compare and contrast how different Powers and Superpowers were doing RELATIVE to one another. Ideally, they'd have reworked Powerplay a few months before the Thargoid War kicked off, and used the War as a way to seal the fresh loyalties, but that's water under the bridge now. Still, it'd be nice to see that considered going forward.

Players need fights that feel meaningful, and fighting a progress bar is not a very good long-term strategy to achieve that. The best way to encourage players has always been getting them to fight each other.
I disagree. I much prefer cooperative place rather than competitive. also I would like to believe realistically if there was a force intent on wiping ALL of us out we would actually pull together (probably naive but I like to be positive) so this works well for me. it could be better. the thargoid attack patterns in an instance are a bit too predictable with rare variations but in general I am enjoying it and other than the rare 4th wall breaking player Meta killer ship trying to pick us off, I have enjoyed the coop play Vs thargoids.

I would be totally happy with kill Pilots Federation member missions which would direct player to attack each other so long as not directed to players who have not taken on such a mission , and would love the game to make actual coop play a little easier (sometimes it's a slog playing with specific friends in anything other than a defined RES or CZ area) but the thargoid stuff for me broadly speaking is ok
 
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What's the point in fighting a war that can't be won until Fdev flip the right switch?

Why do you play any games then?
You do realize that playing any game means going on the path set by the developer.
ED is no different except a normal game is set in stone at release, while in ED the narrative is an ongoing event.

ED has also the advantage that is pure optional to engage in the current narrative.
However, one can chime in whenever they want or they feel like it
 
For one, it makes the entire fight much more manageable. Every week, there are more systems to defend than can be defended, so it's easy to get overwhelmed and feel like you're making no progress or losing ground. By contrast, a single maelstrom is a much more reasonable and manageable thing, and players could actually envision themselves being able to stop it.

For two, it naturally guides players to where they want to fight. The current system has players running hundreds of light years across the bubble, as one top system is beaten and the next one comes up. Needing to plot a fleet carrier jump for every new system fight, or needing to swap ships and wait for a ship transfer, seriously discourages serial participation.

And also, the current system heavily leans towards the easiest targets to defend. High-g planets, for example, are almost entirely avoided because of their danger, and because there's almost always a better target. By focusing players on smaller areas, it forces them to fight in diverse and interesting places, as well as exploring different ways to locate thargoids to fight, such as if there's no attacked station available.
I think to a large extent you're arguing for something which is already happening here

Some Maelstroms (Oya and Taranis especially) have had a lot more focus than others (especially Thor). There are plenty of groups focusing on the fight at a single maelstrom and using various different strategies to do so, putting effort into containing that Maelstrom while other Maelstroms have been allowed to spread mostly freely. Strategic opportunities to contain the Thargoids more effectively on a bubble-wide scale have been missed as a result.

There are Imperial (mostly near Hadad and Leigong) and Federal (very active near Cocijo, and also in defence of their Powerplay ally LYR's space) groups largely concerned with the defence of their superpower's territory. A bit from the Alliance, too, though not much Alliance territory is directly threatened right now or there'd probably be more.

On a smaller scale, there are PMFs whose territory is being threatened or captured who are either fighting solely in that area, or fighting a bit more generally because building alliances is nevertheless efficient (if two groups have the capacity to take half a system each week, they make progress much better by teaming up to do 1 a week), but which are only "interested" in the Thargoid War in so far as it's a direct threat to their space, and if they'd happened to pick a starter system on the other side of the bubble would probably be largely ignoring it.

Yes, a lot of the big groups specifically built around AX fighting or wartime activities - AXI, PDES, IDA, etc. etc. - don't have that attachment to a particular system, region or superpower and are just hopping around from flashpoint to flashpoint (it's not as if a FC jump every few days is a massive inconvenience), a lot of independent pilots are following those groups around as well ... but those groups are the ones whose motivation is much less of an issue anyway. AXI aren't going to get bored of shooting Thargoids now.

Conversely, you can't make someone who doesn't already care about which of the Federation and Empire comes out on top start doing so now. If they want to help out with an easy Imperial target at Leigong, then once that's done hop in their carrier for a quick jump because there's a good fight in a Federal system by Taranis, they'll do that. I'm very interested in the Thargoid War as a general system of interactions, but I've no interest at all in whether one system or another gets saved.

What's the point in fighting a war that can't be won until Fdev flip the right switch?
People still fight in Powerplay and have done for years and that can't be won at all. Likewise the many long-standing Political BGS groups who again don't have any actual "win" condition in a global sense, and no permanent victories in the local sense either, except for any they define for themselves.

For some people, the "instant" activity - fighting Thargoids, hauling passengers, getting research samples, repowering settlements, whatever - is already fun. That it happens to also move a global progress bar and save a system or two adds some motivation, sure, and maybe has them moving around a bit, but it's not primarily why they do it. So also, the Political BGS: people like trading, combat, missions, etc. but some people find it more fun if it also lets them move around a faction or three on that layer and add some more strategic elements to it.

For the people where the instant activity isn't fun, but they feel it's necessary to move a progress bar towards some greater goal ... well, they're going to burn out sooner rather than later anyway, whether that progress bar is the Thargoid War, the influence level of the HIP 1234 Green Party, or their CQC ranking. The solution to that is not to reformat the progress bars; either Frontier can add a wider range of activities to the war so that there is something fun for them to do in it, or to accept that they'll probably be doing something other than fighting in the war and that's fine.

That's the nice thing about competing against other players; it's inherently balanced, since everyone has the same theoretical amount of time and effort to invest. If your side has 100 people and their side has 100 people, it's just a matter of your side investing a bit more time and effort in order to win.
That's true, but in practice the number of people on a particular side is rarely anywhere near that balanced. Most BGS conflicts are 10:1 or 100:1 walkovers (because the 1:1 groups are generally disinclined to fight each other and even the 3:1 groups are usually wary about encouraging an alliance against them). The Feds almost always win Fed vs Imp CGs, and there's not much which can be done about that unless Frontier accidentally or deliberately makes the CGs asymmetric by the required amount. The number of competitions of this sort where the result is in doubt at the start is tiny - and sure, when fights between evenly balanced groups do come up, they can be very interesting, but they're not the normal sort.
 
It's not so hard. They have a story to tell. This is more or less fixed, so players won't have much agency. We get conflicts to resolve to make it seem there is an impact. The incentive is rewards for participation.
It's really not rocket science. Linear story telling has been a staple for long and it's the safe bet for a game spawling with multiplayer and "inventive" players who always find ways to cheese the system.
 
I would say elite has more player agency than most. how many games can truly say that the outcome of an in-game event affected the ending of a book?
yes it was not the ending most hoped for - largely thanks to janky networking and a known cheat using god mods - and in that sense personally I wish the outcome had not been honoured..... but it was.

so there is genuine players altering something right there.
 
I would say elite has more player agency than most. how many games can truly say that the outcome of an in-game event affected the ending of a book?
yes it was not the ending most hoped for - largely thanks to janky networking and a known cheat using god mods - and in that sense personally I wish the outcome had not been honoured..... but it was.

so there is genuine players altering something right there.
Didn't really alter anything in the game though. A ship went bang after some very dubious shenanigans and the galaxy carried on unpeturbed.
 
I would say elite has more player agency than most. how many games can truly say that the outcome of an in-game event affected the ending of a book?
yes it was not the ending most hoped for - largely thanks to janky networking and a known cheat using god mods - and in that sense personally I wish the outcome had not been honoured..... but it was.

so there is genuine players altering something right there.
Nothing like that happened. The book was private fanfic and the author has no clue of game design. You can easily tell by looking at him giggling incoherently playing a 10 year old broken early access game.
 
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