PvP Why is combat not accepted as one more tool in this game?

[Nyra Amarin]

I think it's not hard to admit that there is a great gap between PvP lovers and traders or explorers. And I could say that private and solo modes are not only used to get some privacy but to avoid criminal and PvP Players.
But why does this happen? Where's that passion about the story inside Élite: Dangerous and the world it conforms (not only by NPC's but Players too)?

From my point of view the greatest obstacle is engineers.
Carrying an improved ship is mandatory nowadays if you want to fight against players and it requires a lot of time without "getting anything". It is not worthy for all those who just think combat is something occasional and focus on other mechanics of the game.

"Doing engineers" is really tedious and you cannot get money during the process, which is the only thing that seems important to those who do not like combat but doing missions: getting ships, making more money, getting more ships for making more money, for getting more ships ... (I think you got it).
While I do not understand this attitude (that is getting ships to get ships), there is no other choice but to accept reality is what it is.

I understand Frontier's dilemma. They implemented the engineers for a good reason but nowadays it has become a huge obstacle when it comes to play wars (BGS, PP or just facing criminals), mainly between players.
This has caused people to withdraw only creating contradictory actions when playing these conflicts and instead of analyzing why these inconsistencies happen we finally ask that the actions in solo mode should not affect open, etc ...

I usually dream with a day when all the groups of players that have decided to pledge their actions to a Power or to rule a system understood that maybe it is necessary to jump into a combat ship in defense of their interests (on rol).
That lacking of engineered ships was not the excuse for not doing it, and that there were no excuse on the huge farm (or not getting money) for having a combat ship that some situations require.

Of course, people will still decide whether to fight or don't do it. But at least you will not have that trouble. Every one could have a little ship (or a big one) prepared for combat even if you are not prepared for the war... but would you not fight for your family whatever it takes?

I really cannot find any solution ... but I think it's a topic we could discuss.

 

[Shadowed]

I was super into PvP before 2.1, the days before Engineers. PvP was a lot more accessible back then, but Private groups were popular even then.

I do miss playing this game when engineers didn't exist. It made everything a lot simpler, with player skill far more important than ship loadout.

 

[Frenotx]

It frustrates me. If engineers had been implemented with a specilization / sidegrade sort of mindset, so many problems could have been avoided. That's why I'm so disappointed with FDev regarding the whole grandfathering + buffing all blueprints buisness- this was the perfect opportunity to reign in the crazy power increase engineering provides.

 

[Raumfahrer Spiff]

I think the lack of passion is because the game doesn't showcase well enough the things that should make people feel connected to their corner of the galaxy.

The people that can dive in and sift through the hard to find info, and the people that have better imaginations to fill the gaps they are left with, are the ones that do get passionate.

Everyone else is just trying to grind credits as fast or possible or shoot at as many things as they can put in front of their crosshairs indiscriminately, with no real emotional investment to what they are doing.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Some players have been exercising their freedom of choice to play in Private Groups and Solo to enable them to play without encountering players that prefer PvP as a play-style since long before Engineers was released - simply because they just don't find direct PvP to be "fun".

 

[Herbrand]

I love PvP, but I also love to be immersed in a universe where the rules and lore are consistent and make sense. If this was a Halo in space I would embrace it as such, but if I am trying to role play living in this simulated galaxy, the notion of players attacking others for the fun of it breaks the suspension of disbelief. It is both annoying and inconsistent that there are no simulated rules that prevent them with getting away with murder.

 

[Nyra Amarin]

Some players have been exercising their freedom of choice to play in Private Groups and Solo to enable them to play without encountering players that prefer PvP as a play-style since long before Engineers was released - simply because they just don't find direct PvP to be "fun".

But they decide to play PP or BGS against other factions. That's what I'm asking here.
Why do people choose the multiplayer part of the game without accepting conflicts related with it as part of the game? Or even against NPC?

How can you choose ruling a system (on rol or off rol, whatever) but not fighting the wars?
Why do you understand both are different things?

Even Pvp players understand all mechanics are needed and play it, even when they hate it.

 

[Celosia]

But the decide to play PP or BGS against other factions. That's what I'm asking here.
Why do people choose the multiplayer part of the game without accepting conflicts related with it as part of the game? Or even against NPC?

How can you choose ruling a system (on rol or off rol, whatever) but not fighting the wars?

There are other ways to fight a war other than direct armed conflict, economic battles / wars are a thing.

In the end this is still just a game so it will always boil down to what the individual enjoys be that pvp or something else /shrugs

 

[Brrokk]

What you're not taking into account is that ED is a very versatile game and different people find different things they enjoy in it. I've enjoyed unlocking all the engineers and tinkering with my ships, but I don't want to take part in PvP. That's it, really.

 

[Nyra Amarin]

There are other ways to fight a war other than direct armed conflict, economic battles / wars are a thing.

In the end this is still just a game so it will always boil down to what the individual enjoys be that pvp or something else /shrugs

I didn't ask other game mechanics.
My question still the same: why PvP is not accepted as one more tool in this game? (Mainly in onrol conflicts against other players).

What you're not taking into account is that ED is a very versatile game and different people find different things they enjoy in it. I've enjoyed unlocking all the engineers and tinkering with my ships, but I don't want to take part in PvP. That's it, really.

And I'm not talking about people who love engineering their ships
My question still the same: why PvP is not accepted as one more tool in this game? (Mainly in onrol conflicts agasint other players.

 

[Nyra Amarin]

(Sorry. Double post)

 

[JohnRoberts]

Elite has a lot to offer - yes, PVP is one of those things, but inevitably, there will be plenty of people for whom PVP is everything they want to do. They will put all their game time into learning the meta, learning the skills, and becoming competitive. In short, they will be working to get every legitimate advantage over their opponents (that is the essence of PVP, after all). So, when a player who doesn't focus on PVP meets said PVPers, they find themselves at some considerable disadvantage in the fight, and no doubt they'll be the ones looking at the re-buy screen.

Ultimately, I don't really engage in PVP (although I'm generally in Open), because I love the diversity of the game, and I feel that to be even half way competitive in PVP, I'd have to invest almost all my game time into it.

Oh, and maybe I'm the only person who does, but I really enjoying engineering ships (but never for a PVP focus).

 

[Brrokk]

...And I'm not talking about people who love engineering their ships
My question still the same: why PvP is not accepted as one more tool in this game? (Mainly in onrol conflicts agasint other players.

Because we don't all want to do it. Some like it, and they do accept it as a tool. Others don't. There isn't a unanimous consensus. Quite a common situation really.

 

[B1rdy]

I think it's not hard to admit that there is a great gap between PvP lovers and traders or explorers. And I could say that private and solo modes are not only used to get some privacy but to avoid criminal and PvP Players.
But why does this happen? Where's that passion about the story inside Élite: Dangerous and the world it conforms (not only by NPC's but Players too)?

I think not using open mode was and will be a safe haven for players, regardless of engineers. Remember when you could fly and trade shieldless, because NPCs were so easy to avoid? People will always find excuses not to play in open, even if FDev would crank up the AI to PvP-player-level. But that would at least somewhat force player to fly reasonable durable ships instead of paper planes.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I usually dream with a day when all the groups of players that have decided to pledge their actions to a Power or to rule a system understood that maybe it is necessary to jump into a combat ship in defense of their interests (on rol).
That lacking of engineered ships was not the excuse for not doing it, and that there were no excuse on the huge farm (or not getting money) for having a combat ship that some situations require.

Of course, people will still decide whether to fight or don't do it. But at least you will not have that trouble. Every one could have a little ship (or a big one) prepared for combat even if you are not prepared for the war... but would you not fight for your family whatever it takes?

I really cannot find any solution ... but I think it's a topic we could discuss.

Ok.

I don't like combat. You could give me the most overpowered combat ship that even a combat noob like me could use to hold his own in a fight, and I still wouldn't like combat. Get it though your head that some people do not like combat.

Some people don't like exploring. Therefor I will not argue to make scanning x number of Eartlike worlds a requirement for someone to be able to participate PP or influencing a system.

Your thread title states: Why is combat not accepted as one more tool in this game? And it seems it's you who does not want to accept this. You seem to want combat to be the end all, be all tool in this game. Combat is indeed just one more tool among many other tools.

But they decide to play PP or BGS against other factions. That's what I'm asking here.
Why do people choose the multiplayer part of the game without accepting conflicts related with it as part of the game? Or even against NPC?

You realise this works both ways right?

So, someone who is into PvP should be into influencing the BGS? Piracy has no place in the game. Why do people choose the multiplayer part of the game without accepting conflicts related with it as part of the game?

 

[Winterwalker]

I wonder if the C&P changes for Beyond One will lead to PvP being more viably part of Powerplay. They might.

As for Engineering being 'necessary' I still have the most High CZ fun in my iEagle. Though yes she happens to have some engineering mods, she's still a total titch compared to the Anaconda's and Pythons in the zone. Had a great CZ session yesterday anyway though, against railguns and the like that strip shields in moments. People seem to forget (maybe too easily done?) that escape and evade is equal part of any martial art - probably even more important - than the actual shooting bit.

 

[Nick Sticks]

Ok.

I don't like combat. You could give me the most overpowered combat ship that even a combat noob like me could use to hold his own in a fight, and I still wouldn't like combat. Get it though your head that some people do not like combat.

Some people don't like exploring. Therefor I will not argue to make scanning x number of Eartlike worlds a requirement for someone to be able to participate PP or influencing a system.

Your thread title states: Why is combat not accepted as one more tool in this game? And it seems it's you who does not want to accept this. You seem to want combat to be the end all, be all tool in this game. Combat is indeed just one more tool among many other tools.

You realise this works both ways right?

So, someone who is into PvP should be into influencing the BGS? Piracy has no place in the game. Why do people choose the multiplayer part of the game without accepting conflicts related with it as part of the game?

This ^^^^
Nothing more to say.

 

[V'larr]

I think it's not hard to admit that there is a great gap between PvP lovers and traders or explorers. And I could say that private and solo modes are not only used to get some privacy but to avoid criminal and PvP Players.
But why does this happen?

Well, you're on the right track when you point out that Engineers is the greatest obstacle. But it's not the only one.

In a nutshell, this game has a terrifically awful lack of combat balance. Ganky-gimmicks abound in the form of special effects, hitpoint inflation exists in exponential forms galore, you're *penalized* for having *any* wing/crew members whatsoever....

It's a big mess. Engineers takes that mess and makes it worse. So it should be easy to see why many choose to stay in solo/PG and avoid stepping in it as much as possible, since anything to do with competitive play against other players hinges directly upon these aspects of the game.

 

[danteuk]

"Carrying an improved ship is mandatory nowadays if you want to fight against players" - Agree, but a LOT of players don't want to fight other players, they are exploring or doing a trade CG or running a passenger mission or just out site seeing or looking for USS to get some engineering required material. That is why they play in a PG.

"...you cannot get money during the process, which is the only thing that seems important to those who do not like combat" - It seems to me a lot of people do combat - just to get money ( hence all the whining about the changes to the KWS ) - It's not valid to moan that people not interested in combat are only really interested in money - and it's definitely not why a lot players don't do the 'engineers'.

Powerplay seems like a rather dull and pointless addition to the game that a few people played purely to get better weapons for PvP.

If PvP'ers actually wanted to just do combat with other players to see who is the best pilot then CQC would have been a success - but most PvP'ers seem more interested to just engineer the hell out of their ships, then attack any hollow square they see, regardless of what is. Hence my only times playing in Open have ended with me at a rebuy screen because a PvPer in an engineered ship has destroyed me, even though wasn't in a combat ship and I wasn't 'wanted' or carrying any cargo worth dropping.
If most PvP'ers are happy to attack anything that moves regardless of if it's even close to a fair fight then the only reason to pick on other players is to be anti-social.

The really sad part is this is the reason FDev have to spend so much valuable time and effort on CnP changes, instead of adding actual useful features to the game

The problem would have been solved years ago if they had simply changed the game ot have two modes:
PvP - tiny bubble of systems with lots of station with repair and combat ships and all the combat focused engineers ( which is most of them ).
PvE - 400 billion systems and all the other other features of Elite Dangerous that PvP'ers ignore. ( and just make the 'Report Crimes' option almost instantly spawn ATR ships if a human player attacks another human ).

 

[Arguendo]

I think it's not hard to admit that there is a great gap between PvP lovers and traders or explorers. And I could say that private and solo modes are not only used to get some privacy but to avoid criminal and PvP Players.
But why does this happen? Where's that passion about the story inside Élite: Dangerous and the world it conforms (not only by NPC's but Players too)?

But they decide to play PP or BGS against other factions. That's what I'm asking here.
Why do people choose the multiplayer part of the game without accepting conflicts related with it as part of the game? Or even against NPC?

How can you choose ruling a system (on rol or off rol, whatever) but not fighting the wars?
Why do you understand both are different things?

Even Pvp players understand all mechanics are needed and play it, even when they hate it.

The bolded part in your OP is the relevant point that you are missing.
A lot of players avoid the criminal part and PvP players, because their actions are 100% unrelated to the "story inside ED". There is no storyline, no BGS or PP reason, or roleplay behind most PvP you'll find in Open. The vast majority of PvP that finds you in ED is for "winning" or lulz, nothing more nothing less. For anyone involved in the game's storyline, the BGS or Powerplay, those interactions completely pulls them out of their own game, and pushes them into a game they are not interested in.

Note: Sure, a lot of PvPers will come in and say "there can be a million reasons for someone killing you in the game, you just don't know them". And this is true on the face of it, but it's not true when you actually spend some time in the PvP community. There's a reason why the same players will always be hanging out at every CG, pulling and killing non-combattants, and that reason isn't roleplay, BGS or PP. If it was, then they would "swap sides" depending on the CG. They don't