PvP Why is combat not accepted as one more tool in this game?

[Dirtbird]

I’m one of those players who likes to travel around and see the sights, meet the people and generally hang about the place. Funnily enough I haven’t felt the need to build trade optimised or exploration focussed or super tough battle wagons. All my ships are equipped to handle a dangerous and unpredictable world, they have reasonable jump ranges for their class, they can carry some cargo, they have mildly engineered G5 modules and decent resistances on defences across the board. To me, “blaze my own trail” means if you want to stop me doing what I do, then you’ll have to do it at the end of your weapons. And I will rise to the challenge if I feel like it - I’ve got enough credits to give gankers their exploding space pixels without combat logging if I’m feeling lazy. I’m no multi billionaire either, only have 300M credits and 700M total assets after a year and two months of having the game. Biggest ship is a Python, which carries 200 tons if I don’t have the car on board. I play the BGS a bit and while I generally avoid PvP, I’m happy to add it though to the arsenal of things I do in the game.

About a month ago, I was set upon whilst in my Dolphin by a wing consisting of a Vulture and a FGS while mooching around in the Sol system. Both were undoubtedly engineered given the number of special effects that showed up when their shots hit my shields. However I decided to have fun and flew between them a few times before leaving while they were demanding over comms that I eject all my passengers, despite the fact that a simple scan would have revealed I’d fitted it for cargo that round. This Dolphin has G5 engineered shields with good resistances, and G5 dirty drives, and I only rolled for them three times each using materials I’d gathered on my travels. Didn’t spend hours grinding or anything like that. However after showing them their futility as neither of them could catch me unless I let them (this ship can exceed 550 m/s), I left. On my own terms. Yeah, PvP to me is another aspect to the game and a tool to use. However with my ships I can engage with it, or not, on my own terms. I say “You want me to be your content? Go ahead and try to make me. You might get lucky.”

 

[amigacooke]

There are those that are interested in PvP.

There are those who are interested in club v baby seal.

I'm not really interested in being the baby seal.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

I'm not going to bother reading all of this.

git gud, the lot of you.

 

[Warm Considering]

I think it's not hard to admit that there is a great gap between PvP lovers and traders or explorers. And I could say that private and solo modes are not only used to get some privacy but to avoid criminal and PvP Players.
But why does this happen? Where's that passion about the story inside Élite: Dangerous and the world it conforms (not only by NPC's but Players too)?

From my point of view the greatest obstacle is engineers.
Carrying an improved ship is mandatory nowadays if you want to fight against players and it requires a lot of time without "getting anything". It is not worthy for all those who just think combat is something occasional and focus on other mechanics of the game.

"Doing engineers" is really tedious and you cannot get money during the process, which is the only thing that seems important to those who do not like combat but doing missions: getting ships, making more money, getting more ships for making more money, for getting more ships ... (I think you got it).
While I do not understand this attitude (that is getting ships to get ships), there is no other choice but to accept reality is what it is.

I understand Frontier's dilemma. They implemented the engineers for a good reason but nowadays it has become a huge obstacle when it comes to play wars (BGS, PP or just facing criminals), mainly between players.
This has caused people to withdraw only creating contradictory actions when playing these conflicts and instead of analyzing why these inconsistencies happen we finally ask that the actions in solo mode should not affect open, etc ...

I usually dream with a day when all the groups of players that have decided to pledge their actions to a Power or to rule a system understood that maybe it is necessary to jump into a combat ship in defense of their interests (on rol).
That lacking of engineered ships was not the excuse for not doing it, and that there were no excuse on the huge farm (or not getting money) for having a combat ship that some situations require.

Of course, people will still decide whether to fight or don't do it. But at least you will not have that trouble. Every one could have a little ship (or a big one) prepared for combat even if you are not prepared for the war... but would you not fight for your family whatever it takes?

I really cannot find any solution ... but I think it's a topic we could discuss.

I'm going to be brutally honest, posts like this pop up all the time, and they all amount to the same thing: PvP players want a target rich environment filled with vulnerable player-piloted ships they can grief.

I love Open, I really do, I love seeing the other players doing their things and I love making new friends, but having my Type-9 blown up by another player flying an FDL that on it's best day couldn't haul a meaningful fraction of my tonnage isn't very fun. Yet, despite this, I was laughing the whole two minutes it took him to bring my hull to zero (FSD was the first module to die). Yes, I timed it. He couldn't carry enough of my cargo to even break even on the bounty he took even if he tried. Of course, we all know PvP ships don't have cargo holds, do they? I took my five million rebuy, switched to Solo, and kept hauling.

So why attack an unarmed cargo ship? Because, it's fun to him. He could attack any of the NPC ships and get the exact same economic result, without a cargo hold it's the same result regardless. So, why attack the player's ship?

Because, he's a griefer.

That word about sums up PvP players clamoring for mechanics that force and/or encourage other players to expose themselves to PvP. They're griefers. They want a target rich environment of multi-role ships flown by players with very real game experiences to ruin with their ships optimized for one thing and one thing only. PvP ships aren't even good pirate ships, you know, because to pirate you actually need extra modules like a cargo scanner, hatch breaker limpets, and a cargo hold. They want Elite to become like EVE. Thankfully the good guys and gals over at FDev see through the facade and provide us all with a way to avoid griefers: Solo and Private Groups.

This game is not PvP focused. It never was, it never will be (hopefully). Everyone (even PvPers) has access to Solo and PG modes. Ergo, the risk of PvP is completely voluntary, and so no, you don't get anything extra. You don't get rewarded for taking unnecessary risks. Why? Because, they are unnecessary.

I'd rather be flung somewhere between Sagittarius A* and Beagle Point than feel like I needed to engage another player to get something. That's why I play Elite: Dangerous and not EVE.

 

[Raumfahrer Spiff]

I'm not convinced by the "I don't want to fight" argument. Because the possibility of being attacked is innate and ingrained in the game, as is the possibility of running out of fuel or getting crushed by high gravity. The only activity that doesn't potentially prompt NPC aggressors is exploration--though even that is kinda changing with the Thargoids. You don't have to like getting attacked, but logging into the game means accepting that you might get attacked if you do the wrong thing or go to the wrong place. The biggest issue in Open being the disparity between the strongest NPCs and the strongest players.

I'm all for tailoring you experience and having your own style of gameplay, but just pretending that combat is not a part of the cannon of the world presented to us--that we are all potentially subject to--is just putting your head in the sand.

The game should provide clearer "lines" that you can choose to cross or stay behind (i.e. shipping lanes should be a lot more visible, and effective at shielding you from unwarrented aggression--same with system security level) so that leaving those areas is an active choice that one makes, showing a willingness to accept the consequences of having less security back-up, etc..

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm not convinced by the "I don't want to fight" argument.

It's not an argument, it's a sentiment. You don't have to be convinced by it.

And by the way, I've been quite successful staying out of combat as my 2 years of gunless flight proves. Combat is very much optional.

 

[Tosan James]

I was super into PvP before 2.1, the days before Engineers. PvP was a lot more accessible back then, but Private groups were popular even then.

I do miss playing this game when engineers didn't exist. It made everything a lot simpler, with player skill far more important than ship loadout.[/QUOTE

I agree, I think the game was more fun then. Also back then the interdiction mini game was almost unbeatable, so you would either submit and run, or submit and fight. Also you got interdicted every 5 or so jumps, whether you had cargo or not. Now, at least in PVE, I almost never get interdicted. The interdictions back then were what made the Elite universe so dangerous. I guess now, if you want danger, you have to play in PVP mode.

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Because this new generation of gamers is lazy. Rather than put in the work to make their ship better, they'd rather force all players to have the same insta-options.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Sometimes I struggle to have a clear opinion on this sort of optionalism (is this even a word? if not it would have to be invented exclusively for ED). On the one hand I love it exactly for all the freedom it provides mainly to avoid all what I don't like, on the other hand I think at the same time it's what the game suffers the most from: Where optionalism turns into arbitrariness. Not a signature feature of good game design that usually lives from strong and well set limitations. This is what you get if you want to please all and everyone.

In other words, it's apparently good for me and you but not so much for the future of the game: Feels like the game is losing its face (if it ever had some). If seen as a huge 'project' it's still fantastic, but as a 'game' it's pretty much meh at best. [where is it]

I admit that's also just a sentiment... even how you look at it is totally optional.

Avoiding combat isn't unique to this game I think.

And there's more game than combat.

Because this new generation of gamers is lazy. Rather than put in the work to make their ship better, they'd rather force all players to have the same insta-options.

Or that.

 

[Raumfahrer Spiff]

I guess my point is that it doesn't really matter if you want​ to fight or not. It's absolutely valid to say you don't like to fight, and to avoid it as best you can, but just because you don't want to fight doesn't mean you are exempt from dealing with aggressive hostiles (whether they are NPC or player) if you put yourself in the wrong situation.

Though the game could benefit from making the "wrong situations" more clear before the fact.

 

[Raumfahrer Spiff]

Well if you can avoid it, you should be able to, just the caveat being, you can't really be upset or surprised if you do end up in a fight because you failed at avoiding it.

 

[Raumfahrer Spiff]

I'm just thinking about the mindset of some CMDRs that fly in Open who are anti-Combat (as opposed to just not liking it), and who almost feel affronted as a player when they find themselves in a hostile situation (even if it was technically thier own fault).

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Why is combat not accepted as one more tool in this game?

Huh? Combat is a core component of the game. No idea why you would think otherwise.

Not everyone is into it, nor is everyone into PvP. Game provides a lot of ways to play.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Sorry but that's not exactly what I seem to extract from the OP. May I suggest to read the text and not just the bottom line? I don't think he's generally against combat in ED. His point is not quite easy to understand though as he's obviously not a native speaker. You'll need to read between the lines, something I probably did too much... LOL

I guess we extracted something different from it.

Of course, half of it was a complaint about engineers and its effect on the game, which is fair enough.

PvP is a tool that can be used in the game. Not a great one, but its a cool. But he said combat in the title, not PvP.

If the question is why why isn't PvP not accepted as a tool... again, it is. Just not a very powerful one.

I think the devs like it like that. Whether that is a good or bad thing is a different discussion.

I don't see why FD couldn't spend a bit of effort on creating a territorial game for PvP players (i once suggested they change PP to be PvP only... didn't go down too well), so another game on top, just as long as i can keep my PvE territorial game (the BGS).

Or they could add a PvP component to the BGS, but unless carefully implemented i could see lots of room for exploits, such as friends blowing each other up over and over again to make influence move quickly.

 

[amigacooke]

I feel there's enough tools already in Elite: Dangerous.