Why is it illegal to grab lost cargo after fights?

[GeneralIdea1964]

The basic rules are if you are NOT registered as 'owning' it or having 'title' to in some way, it is illegal. You should report it to the authorities and let the appropriate department do the 'cleaning up'.
Do not try to to liken it to maritime law. This allows you to salvage a vessel abandoned by the crew.
In the Elite universe, the cargo is almost always the result of violent action or accident, neither of which are covered by the above rule.
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Think more along finding something lost in the street. It is still the property of the original owner. It does not matter if it is lost or has been taken and then dropped. You are obliged to hand it into "lost property" and they will hold it waiting for the owner to reclaim it. When not claimed, I guess they must hold an auction and there is an 'Space Storage Hunter' programme aired showing people bidding for abandoned cargo pods.
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Elite has moved on legally from the versions in 1984 and now has a far stricter legal framework than more primitive universes like that of Eve
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Cheers Cmdrs
fly safe

 

[Demascus]

Yes FD is very proud of their black market system and they are not going to change it anytime soon. Dropped cargo after a fight is going to become one of those things in the game that you will just entirely ignore..... like mining, pirating for profit, Signal Sources and probably the bulletin board.

 

[Quineloe]

I don t get the fact that ALL stuff ejected is immediately illegal
If you transport a legal item and get blown up, that item gets released in space and anybody grabbing it will then be holding illegal goods
I don t get this...why can t we scoop random stuff that is in space and sell it in stations?

I get the idea of smuggling goods, I don t get the idea of making any space item illegal as soon as you scoop it
Coming from EVE this is weird to me

I would love to spend time and clean space for small money instead of not scooping stuff and helping the local black markets

Because there's no way to verify you found it instead of murdered for it and it was simply easier for the authorities to just outlaw the practice completely. There's always Anarchy, btw.

 

[tomalus]

They could implement police cargo ships that come and salvage the canisters in the name of the LAW.
After getting massive fines I never touch the stuff anymore.

 

[Karakhian]

They could implement police cargo ships that come and salvage the canisters in the name of the LAW.
After getting massive fines I never touch the stuff anymore.

Wellll... if you try smuggling them back into stations without getting scanned, you can make quite a bit of money

 

[ChaosCloud]

its a game though,

game balance > real life definition and technicalities of stealing, especially if it gives ppl something else to do rather than boring trading, ppl could then salvage

You mean pirates could just kill you outright instead of "nicely asking" you to get it dropped unmarked.

 

[Elgered]

I'd suggest to rethink the cargo too.

It would offer a lot of options, if not all cargo was illicit. There are legal salvaging, "better" piracy (when a player can tag his load stolen or missing at the next station or to the next security vessel, or within a time frame of 30 minutes. The prate would have time to sell it legally or have bad luck and get hunted by police,...), a smoother PvE experience with some sort of classical looting (salvaging from NPCs at USS, looting WSSs, etc.)

 

[Monsoon]

You guys do know how EVE handles these cargo situations...right? How do you think it would work in ED?
Why not allow cargo lost in space to be reclaimed?

The issue that makes no sense to me is that the cargo is in an instance that the owner if he got blown up or if it was an NPC will NEVER GET BACK
So why exactly stop players from being able to claim that cargo?

In EVE the cargo is tagged with the name of the pilot who dropped it until it is sold or open and dismantled...until then it is illegal
but you could always SALVAGE the ships remains of the content of cargo

This I think would work great in ED. Blow up a NPC or player, salvage metal and stuff from its debris using special drones and voila
You spend a lot of time scanning and salvaging the ships you blew up and frontier is happy because you are spending time playing and not using too much resources as you are in an instance

Every space game sim needs salvage and cargo management

 

[Robert Maynard]

Every space game sim needs salvage and cargo management

There's a design discussion in the DDA regarding salvage - here - it has not yet been added to the game.

 

[Sim Maker]

Because it is not yours . The poor soul that got blown up or whoever they were hauling it for own it .

So how do the cops know that the stuff is stolen? .......You have just had some fight around the dark side of a planet 1000ls from the nearest other "Human"....no one knows what went on besides you and the victim.........what, is your fish cargo sentient? "I am being stolen"......and sends out a message?

 

[Karakhian]

So how do the cops know that the stuff is stolen? .......You have just had some fight around the dark side of a planet 1000ls from the nearest other "Human"....no one knows what went on besides you and the victim.........what, is your fish cargo sentient? "I am being stolen"......and sends out a message?

As many people have already stated:

1. When cargo is legally bought or sold on the normal commodity markets, it is legally 'bonded' with a marker to show new ownership.
2. If you are scanned and have cargo in your hold that is 'bonded' to anyone else, or shows no ownership mark at all, then it is assumed you stole it. This isn't all that different to how things work today. Remember the crime isn't theft, it's being in possession of stolen goods, or illegal salvage (select a black box from a USS when you find it, before scooping it - you'll see it says illegal salvage). There's no message to be sent. The assumption is that unless a canister is explicitly 'marked' as yours, it isn't yours.
3. You get fined for being in possession of such canisters.
4. International waters are more like Anarchy space. If you want to not get fined, go somewhere where there's no authority. Of course if you then enter a jurisdiction with cops, they'll still fine you if they see you're carrying stuff that isn't yours.
5. The intention at some point has been to introduce both salvaging and also a cargo 'launderer' where you can remove 'stolen' tags and forge your ownership of it for a small fee so you can sell it on the open markets.

This makes sense, seems logical and has lots of parallels in real life. At least to me.

 

[Sim Maker]

"it is legally 'bonded' with a marker to show new ownership."???
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I have not RTFM.....but does it say this anywhere?........I have seen no "Bonded" message when I load my cargo hold???.....Or is this made up lore to cover for a poor game mechanic?

 

[Parmo]

There's a design discussion in the DDA regarding salvage - here - it has not yet been added to the game.

Thank you for the link. Most frustrating that the detailed proposals on salvaging presented in the link have not been implemented in the game. It would greatly increase the feeling of immersion for players.
It is interesting to note that Powerplay is not mentioned so one can only presume that PP is a more recent idea and that it post-dates all of the DDA.
In the link it does say 'Hopefully this is a refreshing return to good old game mechanics'.
I dare say that many in this forum and players of ED in general would feel that this hope has been dashed.

 

[Karakhian]

"it is legally 'bonded' with a marker to show new ownership."???
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I have not RTFM.....but does it say this anywhere?........I have seen no "Bonded" message when I load my cargo hold???.....Or is this made up lore to cover for a poor game mechanic?

Er, since it's exactly what happens today with cargo containers on ships, it's pretty fair just assuming the same thing happens here.

As for you stating it's a poor game mechanic - if that's your opinion, fine, but it seems pretty good as a game mechanic to me. Unless you bought it legally, it isn't yours. Nice and simple. If you want to sell stuff that isn't yours, find a black market and learn to smuggle.

 

[callahan44]

In real life we have "Fences" who pay a fraction of the stolen item's value, and it becomes sell-able-ish again (basically what the black market does)

I think the current mechanic works reasonably well.
However, I think there should be an option to officially salvage for factions, or return military plans to their rightful owners.

Edit: Something like a 24hr permit to salvage in a particular system.

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

I reckon Wanted CMDRs and NPC's alike should forgo the right to keep their cargo tagged. This allows someone else to scoop your cargo if you turn wanted.

If you blow up (too close to star, wanted pilots blow you up but you're clean etc, the cargo should still be tagged to you. Thus it should be illegal to scoop and sell it.

Aggression tag rules/dynamics need to be more complex so that salvage can be had, smuggling in illegally scooped cargo can be done and of course, you should be able to find and return to your lost cargo should it erm... escape your hold.

Salvagers could also turn in cargo back to the owner, for a modest fee - the pilot who lost it would get his/her money back (or most of it), or sell it on the black market for profit (Owner gets nothing).
Reputation could be made, "Salvage Rats" would be born overnight.

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Or, add a scanner module for 're-tagging'/clearing cargo tags... oops tens seconds and that dropped cargo isn't yours any more.

Higher class modules allows more lucrative cargoes to be re-assigned...