Why the Vulture Price Reduction is a Good Thing

I see a lot of people talking about the Vulture's price, and how a reduction in price would make the ship 'overpowered'. I'll go out and say that this shows a lack of insight into game design, and here's why:

When considering the impact of credit cost on player behavior, there are 2 primary effects. I will go into detail on why each of these aren't great choices for balance tuning parameters.

1. High initial cost limits ship access to only players who have enough to cover the buy-in.

You can argue that as long as only a players who have worked really hard for it are able to access the ship, then it isn't a problem if the ship is very strong. Let's consider this.

There are 2 very negative effects of this strategy.

The first is that PvP interactions between veteran players and new players are made very one sided. If the ship is truly completely outclasses less expensive ships, then not only are these new players going to be at a disadvantage because of skill, they will also be at a fundamental disadvantage due to ship disparity. Some people might argue that this is a good thing. But PvP interactions are intended to be about interesting interactions with another player. Setting up one-sided situations undermines these interesting interactions, and puts players in situations where they feel like they can't control the outcome.

The second is that this has poor repercussions on the end-game outlook for veteran players. If the Vulture truly completely outclasses other similar ships, then there isn't any incentive to use any of these other ships. This means that the end-game ship choice lacks variety.

This is not what you want for your end-game.

Your end-game needs to have the most variety. The end-game player needs an abundance of competitive choices and playstyles in order to sustain long-term interest in the game. Limiting the competitive fighter choices to Vulture, Vulture or Vulture does not make for an interesting end-game experience.

2. High re-buy cost creates an incentive to be risk averse with the ship.

There's a certain amount of validity to this point. Having a variety of risk/reward ratios among your ship options can make for some interesting choices.

One huge problem with this is that the implied 'risk' is drastically different for different players. For a player who just got enough credits to afford his shiny new Vulture, losing one is going to be a gigantic deal. For a veteran player with an Anaconda, Python, and 100m in the bank, this risk will be a drop in the bucket. Even worse, with Trading being the dominant money-making strategy at the moment, the 'risk' for Traders is much smaller than it is for people who specialize in combat, since it takes them significantly less time to recoup the lost credits.

This 'risk'-value distortion is also compounded by players who have alpha or beta insurance (to give you an idea, an alpha player pays about 1/2 the re-buy cost on a stock Vulture as a regular player).

This distortion makes re-buy cost a poor balancing parameter - not one you want to emphasize in your design.

But let's assume we still want to use re-buy cost as a balancing parameter. The only way re-buy cost can even factor into balance if it is a practical and active deterrent to people using it PvP situations. This means that people actually use the ship less in practice.

What you get in this situation are several negative effects.

One is that even if it is very expensive to replace, you will still come across opponent players who use this ship. When the battle starts, the fact of the matter is that you're at a disadvantage. Sure, if you did manage to kill them, they would have to pay more to replace it. But the satisfaction gained by that knowledge is significantly less than the satisfaction gained by a more even fight - whether you win or lose.

The second is that you've created anxiety over the ship's use. If the risk and cost of replacement is actually an issue, then this will hang on player's minds. Imagine borrowing a Bugatti that you can afford, and taking it around a race track. Not going to be much fun, is it? This anxiety will exist any time there is real and practical cost and risk.

The last thing is that the Vulture is a fighter. As a designer, you want this ship to be prevalent in combat. It shouldn't stifle the other options, but you want it to be a go-to solution for a fighter. Limiting access to usage of this ship with either buy-in or re-buy is counter productive to this goal.

Progression should be about opening up new playstyles and more options, not invalidating existing choices with strictly superior ones.

If the Vulture would be 'overpowered' by reducing its cost, then it's already a balance problem. The solution isn't to keep the unreasonable price - the solution is to nerf the ship. As far as I can tell from having tested it on the BETA, my most likely candidate would be a nerf to its shields. It's other out-standing trait is its firepower, but the 2 large hardpoints are pretty core to its identity. I also think that extreme defensive capabilities are better reserved for the 'gunboat' style ships.
 
So nerf a 22milc ship to be more or less no better than a 150kc ship? Then what is the incentive to get a more expensive ship if there isn't a noticeable advantage? I'm tired of people here complaining that the much more expensive ships, are much better. This game is NOT about balancing the quality or usefulness of the ships.
 
The one thing that tends to get glossed over is the fact that players that joined after the big trading exploits were removed/nerfed (e.g. limitless supply, luxury goods traders, etc) are at a huge disadvantage when trying to equip or even buy ships. The majority of people complaining about the suggested reduction in prices are those Golden Tower types that got to their position by flying type 7's full of limitless performance enhancers 30km to drop off for big $$$. In comparison newer players have to spend hours with a damn spread sheet open logging supply and demand at numerous hoping to make 100k before 1000 other players exhaust both. (Or in my case writing a forum post while I wait for rare commodities to refresh....2t again....damnit...)
Having "PE Billionaires" complain that other people may soon be able to compete with them on an equal footing makes me a bit worried about where the game community is headed at this point. :S
I bought the game early but did not get around to installing it until a couple days before the trade nerfs. I learned about them on patch day. Sucks for me.

I have stayed with the game (even though I had been growing allot more bored with it on a daily basis) on the promise of the wings patch introducing something to do other than the docking/frameshifting simulator it appeared to be. Having one of the things I was looking forward to the most was grouping which is awesome, and the vulture since I always found the Viper far too limited due to power issues. Having it priced at a point where even if I could afford it I couldnt afford to actually fight with it made me nerd rage. This change will keep me playing and buying pointless paint kits for awhile at least.

cazual out
 
The one thing that tends to get glossed over is the fact that players that joined after the big trading exploits were removed/nerfed (e.g. limitless supply, luxury goods traders, etc) are at a huge disadvantage when trying to equip or even buy ships.

..or tools like me, who deliberately avoided playing the game while they were rampant, despite having beta access, preferring to do it honestly. I'm not sure what to think when random dudebros brag about having a Python for each day of the week and bore us all with their bank balance.. am I supposed to be envious or smug? Genuinely confused here :)
 
Injecting some facts into this thread:

So far only the FDL has been confirmed for price reduction.
Everything else has just been speculation based on mention of "combat ships" in a galnet news article. "Combat ships" could mean all Fer de Lances in circulation, or it could mean all Fer de Lances, Vultures, Pythons, Clippers, Asps, Vipers, and Anacondas. We don't know, hence --> speculation.

Just saying, don't count your eggs.
 
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Not to take the air out of your sail, but i just checked the Vulture on ED Shipyard and it has also some power issues. So even with that one you will play with energy settings, at least a bit. As for the rest, sorry - but limitless supply is rather a bad implementation than exploit. Especially as it is difficult to avoid, as that would mean not to trade at all ;)

As for the rest, tired of discussing that topic over and over again - so i will leave it as it is. We will see what FD thinks about that topic. I guess the Vulture will become a bit cheaper according to what they said, and most probably income for the other professions beside trade will increase to make it more competetive - meaning better but not equal. But as said, we will see :)
 
Injecting some facts into this thread:

So far only the FDL has been confirmed for price reduction.
Everything else has just been speculation based on mention of "combat ships" in a galnet news article. "Combat ships" could mean all Fer de Lances in circulation, or it could mean all Fer de Lances, Vultures, Pythons, Clippers, Asps, Vipers, and Anacondas. We don't know, hence --> speculation.

Just saying, don't count your eggs.

I predict a massive flamewar on the forums if they don't reduce the prices of ALL combat ships as the ingame message states, but only the FDL.

Combat ships as in: Every type of ship you can encounter in a conflict (aka combat) zone: Eagles, Vipers, Cobras, Asps, Pythons, Clippers and Anacondas, along with the new Vulture and FDL.
 
So nerf a 22milc ship to be more or less no better than a 150kc ship? Then what is the incentive to get a more expensive ship if there isn't a noticeable advantage? I'm tired of people here complaining that the much more expensive ships, are much better. This game is NOT about balancing the quality or usefulness of the ships.

I think you missed the point.

The incentive is primarily an increase in options among ships and playstyles, with a moderate increase in capabilities.

As someone who can't afford the Vulture, I can tell you I would definitely be motivated to go for a 10m 'balanced' Vulture.


You can be tired of people critiquing the current ship progression all you want. You are ignorant of the game design implications of the current system, and your opinion is next to useless until you start thinking about them.

The 'more expensive ships are better' mentality leads to a game where the most-expensive ship is best. This makes end-game ship choice extremely limited and boring.
 
I predict a massive flamewar on the forums if they don't reduce the prices of ALL combat ships as the ingame message states, but only the FDL.

Combat ships as in: Every type of ship you can encounter in a conflict (aka combat) zone: Eagles, Vipers, Cobras, Asps, Pythons, Clippers and Anacondas, along with the new Vulture and FDL.

Massive flamewars are the steady state of every gaming forum ever. No matter what they change, some people will still whine that the Asp is too expensive, that FDev are only catering to jobless no-lifers, etc. etc.

The threat of flamewars or angry posts is not an incentive or justification for anything. Regardless of what they change, I promise you this - the vast majority that are in cobras and vipers won't be happy a month from now because there will still be ships far, far out of reach for them. And that's because - if they're still in a viper or cobra 3 months after release - reducing the cost of all ships by a factor of 2 won't actually let them get upgrade to anything above an asp anyway.
 
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Massive flamewars are the steady state of every gaming forum ever. No matter what they change, some people will still whine that the Asp is too expensive, that FDev are only catering to jobless no-lifers, etc. etc.

The threat of flamewars or angry posts is not an incentive or justification for anything. Regardless of what they change, I promise you this - the vast majority that are in cobras and vipers won't be happy a month from now because there will still be ships far, far out of reach for them. And that's because - if they're still in a viper or cobra 3 months after release - reducing the cost of all ships by a factor of 2 won't actually let them get upgrade to anything above an asp anyway.

Could hug you Potato. But most probably that would look plain stupid :D But jokes aside, exactly that. Even IF they reduce the Vulture to.. lets say 10million as was said in one of the previous posts. I wouldn't really care to much to be honest. Still, there is another 15+ bill waiting in terms of upgrades. So according to the rage war regarding those prices, that will be the next topic that people brag about. After that, it will be insurance that even with 10 mil base price will remain at arround 1 million with proper upgrades. Then FD increases money gain towards the non trade profession to some reasonable degree (and no, for reasonable is not equal to trade), which would be fine for me. But i promise, then you will have people brag about still not earning enough to get the traders toys. At least not as fast as a trader does. Not they would need those...
 
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No, I got the point just fine, thank you.



This quote right here is a keeper! I think this needs to go down as my signature. Quality stuff here.

Clearly you missed the point. You cant even understand that such reasoning makes for a BAD game.

At first I thought you were just ignorant. Now I know you're actually stupid.
 
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