Will Frontier ever cave to the 'majority' if...

[Obsidian Ant]

EDIT 3 (22 Dec): So here we are at release. And it seems that Frontier might be caving, at least to specific requests and gameplay mechanics. Reading through many of the earlier posts in this thread it's clear that the majority of posters felt this would never happen, as Frontier again and again stated that they were making the game for themselves according to their own vision.

Whilst Frontier still have a long way to go to fully backtrack on their original vision...and it is still far too early to question what they are doing in this regards, it is nonetheless clear that the game is being changed. Some seemingly small changes have indeed had significant impact. Is this going to be an ongoing trend? If so where will it stop. The curious thing that some of these changes beta and alpha players requested to be made months and months ago - but Frontier refused, stating that they would stick to their vision. Yet they backtrack on this within days of release.

I have seen people talking about sitting in a station waiting for commodities to restock. They are not playing the game...merely waiting for a timer to expire. There was even a post the other day from someone asking for autopilot in combat so that their ship always automatically faced the target. Frontier went as far as implementing the first change (though they took it away). I'm sure they will never go as far as implementing auto-pilot combat, but there does seem to be a trend appearing here from Frontier. Hopefully that isn't the case, and they are merely balancing the game for whatever they have planned in the future.



EDIT 2 (13 Nov.): As we get closer to release, this question may have more relevance. The question still stands; if enough people demand Frontier to change their vision of Elite - do you think they will give in a make the changes?

EDIT (July): So, it's just over a month since I made this thread originally, and over the past few days / week or so, there has been a sharp increase in threads from people commenting on how complex / unfair they feel this game is. As we move into standard beta, the forums will probably eventually be swamped with such posts.

To be perfectly honest with you guys, I'm a little doubtful whether or not Frontier will hold their ground against this tide. Do you all still feel that Frontier will stick to their guns, or are the increasing threads / comments giving you any cause for concern?


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June: Original (now edited) Post
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Will Frontier ever cave to the 'majority' if...the majority ask for the game to be changed?

Many of the following points are regularly made o

1) Elite Dangerous can be difficult.
2) The flight system and combat takes time and skill to learn.
3) The game can be very unforgiving.
4) It is in many ways all about long term goals.
5) There is little in the way of 'instant gratification'.

Yet, most here will agree it is exactly these reasons that make Elite a great game.

With the advent of Premium Beta there have been numerous posts here 'complaining' or expressing concerning about any number of the above elements and in some cases asking for change.

When Standard Beta starts the number of such posts and requests will no doubt increase. It is not inconceivable that when Gamma arrives such complaints could form a 'majority' of the community.

Whilst that may, or may not happen it is still a possibility. In such an imagined future where during Gamma or Standard Beta a majority took to these forums and asked for Elite to be changed - do you think Frontier would give in to such demands...or do you feel Frontier would stick to their guns?

 

[Smugallo]

I hope Frontier doesn't listen to an of the whining, I really don't. Frontier are making a game that they also want to play, and while some of the implemented systems are in their early stages, they can only get better.

 

[Adept]

I'm confident in the vision they have for Elite after what we've seen so far

 

[Memnoch]

I hope not as the majority might be a bunch of people that have no clue what they are talking about as far as space sims and game development are concerned.

I trust that ED is in a safe pair of hands.

 

[Joe nose]

They have listened to the DDF re super cruise...much to the games benefit IMO. Hopefully they will continue to do so (not a DDF member BTW).

 

[Mace71]

Will Frontier ever cave to the 'majority' if...the majority ask for the game to be changed?

Although this posted was prompted by what has gone on with Arena Commander (Star Citizen) this topic itself is not about that game. Today a developer from CIG posted the following in regards to Star Citizen:



Whilst I can understand what the developer is saying, and from a certain point of view (pleasing your fans, and creating a successful business) it makes sense, it is nonetheless a topic that is of concern.

We all know the following:

1) Elite Dangerous can be difficult.
2) The flight system and combat takes time and skill to learn.
3) The game can be very unforgiving.
4) It is in many ways all about long term goals.
5) There is little in the way of 'instant gratification'.

Yet, most here will agree it is exactly these reasons that make Elite a great game.

With the advent of Premium Beta there have been numerous posts here 'complaining' or expressing concerning about any number of the above elements and in some cases asking for change.

When Standard Beta starts the number of such posts and requests will no doubt increase. It is not inconceivable that when Gamma arrives such complaints could form a 'majority' of the community.

Whilst that may, or may not happen it is still a possibility. In such an imagined future where during Gamma or Standard Beta a majority took to these forums and asked for Elite to be changed - do you think Frontier would cave and hold a similar attitude to the one posted by CIG...or do you feel Frontier would stick to their guns?

I really hope not. I don't think David Braben would compromise his dream of what a modern Elite can be because the kids want HAWX in Space or cry that they can't hyperspace in 2 seconds or that *sigh* it's too hard...

That would be a smack in the face to the original backers who backed it because of its original promises. If RSI do a 360 on what they promised that is so wrong.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

They have listened to the DDF re super cruise...much to the games benefit IMO. Hopefully they will continue to do so (not a DDF member BTW).

Yes that was a good change, and shows Frontier listen to reason.

However the DDF is a select community formed of people that have an avid and deep interest in space games.

What is happened with CIG is different...they are talking about the majority of the community as a whole, which includes casual gamers, Call of Duty gamers, and old and young gamers both.

The developer said that if the community asks for Kerbal Space Program combined with World of Tanks, that is what they will make. If the community asks for Arcade Commander that is what will get made.

What if in the future the community asks for Elite Dangerous to be made into a more straight forward game, with more instant gratification and more arcade like combat. Will Frontier have the same attitude as CIG?

 

[mattyboy1509]

So far they have been very good at saying no to things that aren't in their vision phew...
I do have to say it must be an age thing re type of games. To be homest i tried eve and i thought it was incredibly complex with all the skill trees etc more like playing civilization or something than a space adventure game.
However elites ui i dont feel is complex at all especially considering there are not turorials or anything.
Try playing lockon with an a10 or something.
To be honest not been able to play it all week but settling back into that cockpit for an hour or 2 this afternoon has been a real joy.
Waffle waffle waffle
Anyway ive always had the impression that frontier expressed a vision and asked for funding for it and steered clear of both promising too much and becoming a crowd controlled rather than crowd funded project.
Pre kickstarter people presented their idea and asked people to pay for it.
Post though its an interesting way to pay people to make your idea in practice it would seem peoples ideas of the perfect game are wildly divergent !

 

[Olrik]

We all know the following:

1) Elite Dangerous can be difficult.
2) The flight system and combat takes time and skill to learn.
3) The game can be very unforgiving.
4) It is in many ways all about long term goals.
5) There is little in the way of 'instant gratification'.

Yet, most here will agree it is exactly these reasons that make Elite a great game.

Exactly, these are the reasons that make Elite a great game. I particularly like the number 5. :smilie:


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I don't think David Braben would compromise his dream of what a modern Elite can be because the kids want...That would be a smack in the face to the original backers who backed it because of its original promises.

Agreed.

 

[Mazhurg]

My opinion on this is that CIG did not follow on their vision. Initially they were very much about a return to a Wing Commander environment, with more realistic flight models and all (visit their early writing on KS). What probably happened is as is typically North American, the increasing popularity and revenues led to adopt the vision to fit the lowest common denominator.

Unfortunately the crowd (or majority) of this is casual, and will quickly tire of the game as CIG is now caught between a rock and a hard place. Make the game more difficult and they lose the casual players; keep it on the current (flight model) level and the casual players will tire of it fairly quickly - so a lose lose for a long duration. And before one brings up freelancer, whilst popular it is very much a niche product.

FD is also initiating this game on the vision of his founder - just as CR did - and while I understand that we, the hardy supporters, have taken to David's vision and would very much play in it FD might also fall victim under the result of its success. Hopefully the lure of quick gains $$(££) will not change the vision for the longer term.

 

[MonochromeChaos]

Ultimately it's going to be about what the most backers like. We will never make everyone happy, as much as we'd like to. But we definitely will try to make this game what the majority want it to be.

Well, if you weren't worried about scope-creep before, you certainly should be now...crowd funding is one thing, but they're practically proposing crowd-design.

If they think they will ever get any clear consensus about what 'the majority' want...then they're daft.

I think they've raised so much money from the backers, they feel they are beholden to them, morally if not strictly legally. Which misses the point that what people backed was the vision of the game that Chris Roberts initially proposed.

The E: D kickstarter and subsequent backer's offerings have been a lot more modest in scope, and really aimed at gauging whether or not the interest was there for 'an Elite-type game'. Since we've all shown that it is, I'm sure FD will deliver an 'Elite type game', and being nintendo-hard will be part and parcel of that.

 

[DraigUK]

The day DB caves in to the whining is the day this will no longer be Elite.

As such, it will never happen.

 

[Joe nose]

The day DB caves in to the whining is the day this will no longer be Elite.

As such, it will never happen.

Agreed

 

[Gelbrock]

ELITE


That says it all.....

You need to train, practise, search, learn, and spend hours, weeks, months to be a real 'Elite' player.



Whining kids and instant gratification seekers..... go play space invaders....


'But what about making the game a financial success....?' I hear you cry.....

Mr B will do just fine even if he just kept the elite faithful happy and more importantly stays true to his vision of what is a good game.

 

[Commander Dave]

As far as I'm aware FD reserve the right to not pay attention to anyone who backed or will back the game.
The thing is that when you pledge money and pay up you're not actually buying anything. You're contributing to a fund that the creator uses to generate the thing that you decided you like and thereby backed.
That gives the backer precisely zero rights in terms of what the creator does with their money outside that stated in the pledge criteria. I'm pretty sure that in the small print it says something along the lines of; pledging does not endow the backer with any control over the company or individual or projects backed.
So, I think, legally, FD can do whatever they like and there's buggér all any of us can do about it.

That said, there is this:

The development of ED is run by people who have, seemingly miraculously, the same vision for Elite that I share with many others also. Actually it's no miracle or even very surprising. One of the original creators of Elite is heading up the organisation. I can't imagine that person putting together a team of people who would wish to do anything that wasn't in the spirit of Elite, however you choose to define it precisely, the broad concept is the same as the original BBC Elite.

Personally I have complete trust in the FD team and the ED devs.
They're doing this right. They have the right people, they are doing it at the right time, and they're doing it in the right way. One may quibble over minutiae but the process rumbles on.
Barring personal disasters and/or global catastrophe, I'm not sure that there's anything that could go wrong from this point. The vision has been there from the outset and it's been moving along to culmination of that vision into our reality ever since.

 

[Schnittertm]

From my little experience since with the game from the beginning of beta, while there are a few things that could be improved upon (let's face it, that is always the case even in a finished game), I did not find it very difficult per se. I didn't look at the forums or any other source for help the first few times and was able to figure out how the interface works, set up my keys fine and was able to get to know the rules for when I can and can't frame shift and why and what the symbology shown during frame shift means (blue circle for gravity wells that are close enough to slow you down and brown circles that will drop you out of frame shift if you cross the line, for example). Landing in the dock was also quite doable, though I have yet the fly one of the real big ships, although the main difficulty there lies in threading the needle through the starport entrance, the landing shouldn't be much different from any other ship.

Combat takes a bit of practice, but if you want to, you can easily avoid combat even now, by bugging out right away and once single player comes around, then everybody that does not like facing real humans can effectively play in a way that suits their loner style.

Even the complexity, while a bit higher than a FPS, is still nothing near the complexity you'd have in a full on study type aircraft simulator. Just thinking about frooglesims videos on the PMDG 777 or even starting up the A-10C in DCS: World (not to speak of handling all the in flight systems) far outstrips any complexity in ED.

So, in my opinion, no, it is just right complexity wise to feel authentic and to not overburden anyone with at least half a brain. Anyone with less than half a brain need not apply and should stick with 'simpler' games.

I do think that even Frontier does see it in a somewhat similar light and will not listen to people that are overburdened by the 'complexity' of ED.

As for CIG, it is nice what they say and maybe it will be more arcady and I won't mind that when it is released and on my drive, though I may not play it as much then. I am currently even loathe to download the 10GB of Arena Commander, since you are a) unable to rebind controls, which is a must have for PC games and b) the UI is overdone, which just shows that someone that makes movie special effects (the Iron Man suit UI) may not be suited to created a HUD/UI that is suitable to combat. I find the SC:AC UI to be a bit too flashy and intrusive and distracting. Maybe they should hire someone that worked on HUD symbology for a military fighter jet, that might produce more useable and useful results.

 

[Adam Lusardi]

I would be happy if no one else play ED as long as they stay with the vision.

 

[Dante80]

Well...in the end its the product that speaks.

FD are focused and eager to make a good game. Scratch that, a great game. They have the funding and manpower, they know what they want the player experience and the feature set to be and they are working to achieve that.

If the end product is good, people will buy it, use it, love it. If its not, FD will fail. Hard.

Thats life and business really. Now, the important part is that the definition of "good" varies from one person to the other. And in the end, I think that DB wants to make a product that he would actually like to play.

Lets hope others do too..

 

[Alric]

There's always an element of player feedback affecting things in any game that has ongoing development. What I think is important with Elite is that it's pretty clear what they are building. It's clearly another step along the same path that the other games started. Those of us who played them knew what to expect and Elite : Dangerous seems to be going about delivering it.

I think SC is in Kickstarter mode in someways.. the "it could be anything you want" sort of vibe that you have in the very early stages of a project. At some point it will have to make firm decisions - no matter how great the engine it can't be everything at once. That's when people start to complain - when the practicalities of being a real game come in to conflict with each individuals idealised vision.

No doubt both games will continue to have these issues. Being so open ended and ambitious it goes with the territory. But I think Elite is in a better place as far as having managed expectations.

 

[Maruun]

I see it that way.

I didnt pay them money to make me MY game.

I payed them money to make their game, and i already concluded i would like that game.

Feedback, suggestion all fine aslong that is in the same interest they envisioned for THEIR game.

Planetary Annhilation goes the same route. They make THEIR game, and take suggestion into considerations. But block them one way or another if it isnt going the way they envisioned for THEIR game.

Everything is else PUBLISHER-SHACKELS and i am not one of the Axis of Evil!

YES! I always wanted to say that as a German....Axis of Evil MUHAHAHA..