Wing Mining: Don't bother...

[Mithrawndo]

Hi all, my first post here!

I finally got around to buying Elite: Dangerous (and Horizons) last week and have been enjoying the universe, despite a few things rankling (like not being able to look behind you whilst reversing - or indeed to the side - as you could in Frontier: Elite and First Encounters, and as you can in many modern cars).

Today I hit my first real stumbling block though, and it was as I attempted to go out mining with my flatmate.

We kitted out one Class 6 with a large cargo hold and collector drones, whilst we used a Viper III with an uprated powergrid to fly around and do the dirty work. All went well, though the discovery that each asteroid is unique to each player - that whilst you can share prospector data, the data it reports is different to each person and can essentially be mined as many times as you have players (exploit much when you find a painite 'roid?) - came as a bit of a surprise.

This was nothing compared to the fact that once we'd used all our drones and headed back to the station, we discovered there really isn't any way to divide the profits. We ended up having to sit down and work out exactly how much we'd taken in, then sit outside the station ejecting painite from the hauler and scooping it up in the viper, docking, selling and repeating.

I'm well aware that money can't be transferred between players - for reasons that make no sense to me, but if that's the way it is then so be it - but given that it's possible to share bounties and to pay dividends to pilots in your wing, how could it be that mining in wings was overlooked?

This has put a serious downer on the game for us; I find it baffling that we lack even the simplest tools to trade amongst players, or if this is considered to be an issue, the tools to be able to share in the proceeds of our labour. We have our PCs set up next to each other and because of this, we might as well go back to doing our own thing - and do it in solo mode.

Am I missing something obvious? Even the dividend payments you would usually get for being in a wing with someone who was trading didn't apply when we sold our mining proceeds.

 

[Mithrawndo]

Update: The dividend system did work, but at a fixed rate for the division of labour. Would it be possible I wonder to allow the person who formed the group to set the rate at which dividends are paid? Allowing for example for up to 75% of their income from trade/mining to be shared with the (up to) 3 members of your wing?

This would allow for wing mining ops to be a real thing, whereas right now the only effective way to do it is to have everyone running mining lasers, a refinery, prospector drones, collector drones and have enough cargo space to be worthwhile.

Is this just an oversight or a deliberate design decision to prevent players from working together?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Why so complicated? I got an easy, practical approach: The winner gets all!

 

[Nerwan]

Hi all, my first post here!

I finally got around to buying Elite: Dangerous (and Horizons) last week and have been enjoying the universe, despite a few things rankling (like not being able to look behind you whilst reversing - or indeed to the side - as you could in Frontier: Elite and First Encounters, and as you can in many modern cars).

Today I hit my first real stumbling block though, and it was as I attempted to go out mining with my flatmate.

We kitted out one Class 6 with a large cargo hold and collector drones, whilst we used a Viper III with an uprated powergrid to fly around and do the dirty work. All went well, though the discovery that each asteroid is unique to each player - that whilst you can share prospector data, the data it reports is different to each person and can essentially be mined as many times as you have players (exploit much when you find a painite 'roid?) - came as a bit of a surprise.

This was nothing compared to the fact that once we'd used all our drones and headed back to the station, we discovered there really isn't any way to divide the profits. We ended up having to sit down and work out exactly how much we'd taken in, then sit outside the station ejecting painite from the hauler and scooping it up in the viper, docking, selling and repeating.

I'm well aware that money can't be transferred between players - for reasons that make no sense to me, but if that's the way it is then so be it - but given that it's possible to share bounties and to pay dividends to pilots in your wing, how could it be that mining in wings was overlooked?

This has put a serious downer on the game for us; I find it baffling that we lack even the simplest tools to trade amongst players, or if this is considered to be an issue, the tools to be able to share in the proceeds of our labour. We have our PCs set up next to each other and because of this, we might as well go back to doing our own thing - and do it in solo mode.

Am I missing something obvious? Even the dividend payments you would usually get for being in a wing with someone who was trading didn't apply when we sold our mining proceeds.

I've done wing mining a bunch of times now and it can be a lot of fun. Tips:

1. Don't worry about trying to split up the profits, just ensure that the mining vessels have roughly the same spec and number of collectors, yes you'll sometimes grab each others fragments but it'll even out.
2. If you want to have ships that are doing a different role (i.e. Scouting/prospecting) you can use combat ships and do it in a RES, that way you'll make more money from the extra framents and those players can get much of their share from bounties. They'll still get the 5% trade divident when you sell your stuff and you can sling them some painite to sweeten the deal.

 

[Boomer Kay]

Update: The dividend system did work, but at a fixed rate for the division of labour. Would it be possible I wonder to allow the person who formed the group to set the rate at which dividends are paid? Allowing for example for up to 75% of their income from trade/mining to be shared with the (up to) 3 members of your wing?

This would allow for wing mining ops to be a real thing, whereas right now the only effective way to do it is to have everyone running mining lasers, a refinery, prospector drones, collector drones and have enough cargo space to be worthwhile.

Is this just an oversight or a deliberate design decision to prevent players from working together?

I was under the impression that the dividends are payed ON TOP of the trade transaction profit.
Fix to the splitting issue is swapping roles every now and then.
And wait for multicrew, just like we do - might or might not contain some "one shoots one collects" component.

 

[Mithrawndo]

Competition is at it's most fun when collaboration is a possibility: Yeah, we could compete with one another to see who mines the most. Yeah, one of us could harrass the other (as could other players, but that's another topic). What's not currently possible though is the division of labour to maximise efficiency.

The most efficient way right now is to have everyone in mining ships: Every other way isn't possible or isn't effective. Logically the best method should be to have multiple miners, a refiner and a hauler. Right now we might as well all just jump in type-6's and do it alone!

Isn't this a multiplayer game?

 

[Jmanis]

Just curious; you can't rotate roles? Tonight I mine and you get the result, tomorrow we flip?

 

[Boomer Kay]

Yeah, one of us could harrass the other (as could other players, but that's another topic).

Not "harass the other" - you can go to a high/haz res and one mines while the other hunts for bounties in his combat ship.
The ressource extraction sites yield better results in mining, if I remember correctly, but are near unuseable for a single pilot in anything below a Python/Vette/Cutter due to the constant harassment by NPC pirates.

 

[Mithrawndo]

Thanks you for all the responses and advice!

I've done wing mining a bunch of times now and it can be a lot of fun. Tips:

1. Don't worry about trying to split up the profits, just ensure that the mining vessels have roughly the same spec and number of collectors, yes you'll sometimes grab each others fragments but it'll even out.
2. If you want to have ships that are doing a different role (i.e. Scouting/prospecting) you can use combat ships and do it in a RES, that way you'll make more money from the extra framents and those players can get much of their share from bounties. They'll still get the 5% trade divident when you sell your stuff and you can sling them some painite to sweeten the deal.

This is pretty much what we've resorted to doing. I was posting here to make sure we were "doing it right" and that I wasn't missing some obvious way to easily divide the labour.

I was under the impression that the dividends are payed ON TOP of the trade transaction profit.

I'm not sure - I've only been playing the game for a week I can confirm it did pay out dividends, but I'm puzzled as to why this variable is fixed, rather than being available for the group leader to change, much like many other games do (Eve Online corporation tax rates, any mmo's loot distribution system). I know FD are still working hard on the game, but I couldn't find any concrete information on whether these mechanics were intended to be fleshed out in the coming decade, as per the ten year plan!

Not "harass the other" - you can go to a high/haz res and one mine while the other hunts for bounties in his combat ship.

I was only giving examples of multiplayer scenarios, but yeah: Fighter assist is a perfect valid role in wing mining, but without the mechanics to provide the ability to negotiate with other pilots at what rate they expect to be paid, it feels... vapid?

Just curious; you can't rotate roles? Tonight I mine and you get the result, tomorrow we flip?

Yep, this is currently the best solution. As new players though, we're some way away from being able to have well kitted out ships for every purpose (my net worth is ~3m, my flatmate ~10m): This would mean we deliberately sacrifice efficiency simply because we lack the tools to be able to divide our labour fairly!

And wait for multicrew, just like we do

I'm excited for this too, but I'm not sure it'll actually have an impact on the way multiple ships are used for mining. Unless the mechanic is getting an overhaul to boot, it won't change much in my scenario.

 

[Arithon]

When mining in a Wing you only benefit financially from the normal 5% bonus of Wing Trade dividends.

To maximize profit, you must work apart so your limpets don't collect the other commander's spoils.
When one of you finds a good rock, tell your Wing-mate(s) of it and have them take turns.
With more commanders, each miner depletes the rock then moves on before the next command starts.
Every rock gives out the same ore content to each different commander, so each pilot can mine it until depleted.
A prospector limpet increases the amount of ore the rock offers up and will give you a progress on how mined out the rock has become. It also acts as a marker for your wing-mate to ID the rock you just mined.

The primary advantage of mining in a group is increased prospecting - you pass on your best finds and your wing mate does the same, which increases the number of high-value rocks you mine. The second advantage is numbers. For the most-part, as long as you are in a ring at least 20km from the RES sites, pirates won't find you, much less bother you. But if they do, two ships are better than one. Four are better than two. You get the idea.

CMDR Ranualf has written a very good guide to mining here.

With around 100 limpets you can make well over a million credits in any given mining expedition. Taking a Wing-mate makes it faster.

 

[Boomer Kay]

I think the dividends are handled differently, because they're actually supposed to provide a bonus to cooperation, rather than splitting the profit ->

I'm excited for this too, but I'm not sure it'll actually have an impact on the way multiple ships are used for mining. Unless the mechanic is getting an overhaul to boot, it won't change much in my scenario.

-> at the moment that game is focused on "self reliance" quite a lot. There's very little where cooperation adds any real gamplay advantage.
Even splitting the bounties f.ex. is not helping all that much, since in a decent combat ship you can keep up with the waves of pirates all by yourself most of the time and if you don't have more ships to kill, killing them faster with 2 ships is not increasing your overall gains.

Once they tackle the multicrew thing, they will have to come up with new mechanics that focus on cooperation and crew-interaction.

 

[rootsrat]

Update: The dividend system did work, but at a fixed rate for the division of labour. Would it be possible I wonder to allow the person who formed the group to set the rate at which dividends are paid? Allowing for example for up to 75% of their income from trade/mining to be shared with the (up to) 3 members of your wing?

This would allow for wing mining ops to be a real thing, whereas right now the only effective way to do it is to have everyone running mining lasers, a refinery, prospector drones, collector drones and have enough cargo space to be worthwhile.

Is this just an oversight or a deliberate design decision to prevent players from working together?

Hey there. Please have a look at my suggestion thread and post in there in regards to asking for players to be able to determine the dividend value > https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=157110

Hopefully if enough people will want it, FDEV will look at it... Here's hoping!

 

[Mithrawndo]

Hey there. Please have a look at my suggestion thread and post in there in regards to asking for players to be able to determine the dividend value > https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=157110

Hopefully if enough people will want it, FDEV will look at it... Here's hoping!

Done. It seems like the simplest solution to the problem, other than simply allowing direct trade between players. I get the impression that the latter is off the cards (which I think is absurd; see my comments in your suggestion thread), but right now there is simply no reason to play this game with my friends - and other than it being shinier, it means there is no reason why I would choose to play in Open over Solo, or worse yet means there's no reason why I bought this game rather than playing my copies of Frontier: Elite II and Frontier: First Encounters!

Suffice to say I'm feeling very disheartened.

The primary advantage of mining in a group is increased prospecting - you pass on your best finds and your wing mate does the same, which increases the number of high-value rocks you mine.

I find this quite depressing, as it's not exactly difficult in any ship larger than a Cobra Mk III to pack enough limpets into your ship to prospect for only the best asteroids, meaning this teamwork reward is negligible. Similarly the idea that we can all mine the same asteroid - that the resource collection is multiplicative, not cumulative - is surely an unintended and exploitative mechanic.

With around 100 limpets you can make well over a million credits in any given mining expedition. Taking a Wing-mate makes it faster.

I'm not worried about the rewards of individual mining. Even in something like a type 6 with 30/40 drones on board you'll easily make 500k per trip even when you're not being particularly selective. If only one person prospects, each miner will make exactly the same - and that's just fine. What I see as wrong here is that it's impossible to share in the roles, instead requiring each pilot fits a collector, prospector, refinery and cargo racks. Surely a better way would be to allow this labour to be divided, having instead one person in a big, slow "mother" ship handle the refining and hauling, whilst smaller, more nimble craft dive into the belts and find/extract the resources?

at the moment that game is focused on "self reliance" quite a lot. There's very little where cooperation adds any real gamplay advantage.
...
Once they tackle the multicrew thing, they will have to come up with new mechanics that focus on cooperation and crew-interaction.

That's my experience too - having met up with several friends in game, we quickly found there was little reason to work together and went our seperate ways. Such a shame...

I hope that they do focus on the teamwork aspect of the game, because as it stands it's an area that is seriously lacking. It'd be a boon for newer players too if they were able to seek out older, more experienced players and learn from them - in return, the older players could seriously increase the amount of credits they generate, allowing everyone to benefit. By providing avenues for the community to benefit by tutoring new players in such professions, in turn it could help sell more copies of the game.

Not only then does each individual benefit from such systems, but so does the community as it grows and as do FD themselves!

 

[Tanith Low]

I have frequently done wing mining. My suggestion is to do it in a Haz Res. 1x Hunter/Escort - 2x Pure Miners - 1x Hybrid like a Python. Hunter role is fairly obvious, as is the minors. When the miners holds start getting full, they jettison for the Hybrid to collect. One decent Escort is all you really need, and the pythn can help out with wings and larger ships to bring them own quickly.

Not an entirely fair division of labour or money, but it is fun.

 

[Mithrawndo]

I have frequently done wing mining. My suggestion is to do it in a Haz Res. 1x Hunter/Escort - 2x Pure Miners - 1x Hybrid like a Python. Hunter role is fairly obvious, as is the minors. When the miners holds start getting full, they jettison for the Hybrid to collect. One decent Escort is all you really need, and the pythn can help out with wings and larger ships to bring them own quickly.

Not an entirely fair division of labour or money, but it is fun.

Thanks for the advice, but my issue isn't with the rewards of the various areas available to mine, nor with the actual mechanics of mining - I feel they are both fine. What's lacking is the ability to share the rewards; the real winner in the scenario you outline is the Python pilot, who'll get a share of some of the bounties and the vast majority of the ore mined. Sure, he can sit outside the station and jettison ore to try and equal things out... but doesn't this seem absurd to you?

I understand we'll never get direct player trade, and whilst I disagree with the conclusions that lead to that decision I'm not interested in beating a dead horse. However I can't help but wonder why, whilst bounty hunting and trading do have mechanics that allow for a "fair" distribution of the rewards (arguments on what the percentage should be aside), I cannot fathom why there exist no systems to enable miners to truly cooperate.

 

[Itaki]

Isn't this a multiplayer game?

It claims to be multiplayer. It just lacks some of the multiplayer tools you would expect to have in a multiplayer game. And, at the moment there really isn't any live-action multiplayer specific game content, anyway. You can wing up and do single player content together, but it's the same content you can do by yourself.

Multicrew, in the future will (I assume) be a nice step in the direction of multiplayer specific content, though I don't know if they plan to introduce some new things to do that requires a multicrew. I hope they do introduce some epic battles (like a mission) that REQUIRE a group to do. Maybe ship-launched fighters and multicrew would be required for a group mining mission in some dangerous area.

 

[Mithrawndo]

Some? I find it mind-boggling that we have integrated voice chat, yet no means to trade with another player. I absolutely adore the elite universe, I've come to terms with the atmospheric-esque flight mechanics and I worship the complete lack of inbuilt narrative - however we have absolutely no tools with which to make playing with others worthwhile. I really might as well be playing the DX9 modified Frontier: First Encounters.

I think the main reason for my saltiness is that despite being a huge fan of previous titles, I got the fear when features were discussed about E. It was only after a friend persuaded my flatmate to purchase the game, a headtracker and yoke/throttle combination that I finally submitted and paid my dues to the great Mr Braben and his surely exceptionally talented colleagues. I can only now hope that they're aware of what a giant, gaping hole this leaves in the game that should have been their magnum opus!

 

[vbwyrde]

I'm a new player to Elite Dangerous. Brand new. My initial reaction to the idea that we can't easily transfer credits to other players, and in particular wing-mates, is that it's a frustrating design decision. My buddy and are are on ED to team up. But if sharing credits is matter of having to buy stuff, jump to space, dump it, and the other guy pick it up, and then dock and sell ... um ... yeah, that's frustrating. We wanted to work together to build a team, but with it this hard to actually share profits it makes the idea far less compelling. So I'm also of the opinion that there needs to be a more sensible means by which to share profits in the game, among co-joined parties at least. But ultimately, I want to go so far as to say I think I should be able to transfer credits to any party in the game I wish. I'm really not clear on why that isn't part of the game system, though I understand from what I've read here that it's a dead horse issue, not worth beating our heads against. But ... why?

 

[Caliber_az]

But ultimately, I want to go so far as to say I think I should be able to transfer credits to any party in the game I wish. I'm really not clear on why that isn't part of the game system, though I understand from what I've read here that it's a dead horse issue, not worth beating our heads against. But ... why?

Gold/farmers credit/farmers, spam, spam, spam and more spam.

Open economies tend to bring out the individuals and groups who will grind out credits and then sell them for real cash. I remember WOW and Everquest when I played then many many years ago and it was UGLY. Imagine if 40 percent of the texts and ingame chat and 80 percent of your ingame inbox was filled with spammers selling credits? Talk about breaking your immersion...

It happened here a few years ago with bounty hunting. FD had to change it so the bounty was turned to a fined and not forgiven to stop the sale of credits for cash.

If FD had move 30 percent of it budget from coding to policing, I would suspect the players would riot. It's not impossible to create some form of credit sharing/transfer but it has to be done in way not to easy to exploit. I for one do not want loads of credit//cash spamming in my game environment. Devise a way of it not to be exploited and it will probably get put in.

Caliber_az

 

[DNA-Decay]

I always enjoyed wing mining.

There's a lot of push in this thread for players being able to change the dividend, but I think you've missed the point.

Wing mining is more profitable when you all have similar ships and all mine the same 'roids.
The thing that OP complains is an exploit (that the roid has the same amount of minerals for each player) is actually the feature that makes wing mining worthwhile.
Everyone slurms along together prospecting and calling out good finds.
"40% painite here" everyone moseys on over to suck it dry.

The trade bonus is just the icing on the cake.
The real value is the speed at which the wing finds valuable 'roids, and the sharing of "everyone gets a full allocation of its minerals".