X-56 Rhino Thread... You think hitting boost by accident is bad...?

[Arvel Yael]

...Try seeing how you feel when boost hits itself for you!

Yep, I've been struck by the deadly X-56 ghosting issue - I did think this was very much a saitek/logitech issue and not an FD one, but for some reason a google for "Saitek X56 Ghosting" brings up loads of pages, almost all of which seem to have "Elite Dangerous" in the title. I don't - for example - get any issues in DCS World.

It's a weird issue, whereby something to do with the amount of power the HOTAS pulls from the USB port means that it registers ghost button presses on the throttle (never on the stick, for some reason).

How does this manifest itself? Well since I got it, it's regularly in the habit of:

• Deploying a Heat Sink for no reason.
• Deploying Chaff for no reason.
• Turning ship lights on/off for no reason.
• Going into the system/galaxy map for no reason.
• Going into reverse thrust for no reason.
• Lowering/Raising the landing gear for no reason.
• Opening/Closing cargo scoop for no reason.
• Going into external camera mode for no reason.
• Turning planet orbit lines on/off for no reason.

And perhaps the two most pain-in-the-arsey ones?

• Going into Silent Running for no reason, leaving me without shields.
• Hitting Boost for no reason, leaving me to quickly put four pips into systems and to hit reverse thrusters. Especially bad if combined with the boost "trick". I lost 20% on my Beluga's Hull thanks to this little "feature".

It's one of those problems that I've tolerated because it was amusing, but I've always meant to do something about it. I haven't listed it under bug reports as such because apparently there are various hardware fixes out there for it (that generally involve buying other hardware like powered USB hubs or USB cards and the like)...

So what are your memorable stories? Has anyone on here solved this issue?

The X-56 (despite the above) is still well worth having. It is the supreme HOTAS for ED, and I'll stand by that despite these little quirks.

But gee, it gets a bit wobbly from time to time! [haha]

 

[Deep Thought 42]

Hi Warthog owner Here

Dont know about how the X52 is wired inside but i seem to have the same kind of issue as you
My Warthog Throttle has a wiring issue & every so often all the buttons on the Right throttle start fireing randomly & i Have to Throttle Up & Down Like a nutter to get it to work correctly or take it appart & press the connecters back in fully
The Left Throttle & Base Buttons + Stick work correctly when this issue happens

 

[Arvel Yael]

Hi Warthog owner Here

Dont know about how the X52 is wired inside but i seem to have the same kind of issue as you
My Warthog Throttle has a wiring issue & every so often all the buttons on the Right throttle start fireing randomly & i Have to Throttle Up & Down Like a nutter to get it to work correctly or take it appart & press the connecters back in fully
The Left Throttle & Base Buttons + Stick work correctly when this issue happens

Yikes! That sounds even more P-in-the-Arsey than the X56 issue!

 

[Deep Thought 42]

It seems to work its way loose every few weeks & i have to open it up to reconnect the wire 5minuets work to sort but have to exit game & unplug throttle

 

[Luniticisi]

Best idea seems to bind all that goes wrong to the keyboard

 

[Arvel Yael]

Best idea seems to bind all that goes wrong to the keyboard

That would fix it, but only by leaving me with a HOTAS that I can't actually use HO.

 

[Talarin]

For the X-55, behavior like this was a symptom of there not being quite enough power getting to the stick/throttle (hence being fixed by separate powered hub). It's quite possible the X-56 is the same.

 

[Deep Thought 42]

Best idea seems to bind all that goes wrong to the keyboard

Then i would have to move my Co-Cat from his favorate bed

 

[Arvel Yael]

For the X-55, behavior like this was a symptom of there not being quite enough power getting to the stick/throttle (hence being fixed by separate powered hub). It's quite possible the X-56 is the same.

Yes, I've heard speculation along these lines . I think I shall have to get a powered hub at some point.

 

[Jorun]

Sudden ghost boost in station has to be the scariest situation Ive had. Ive also had a ghost full thrust down just as Im touching down in a station. Makes for a jarring landing, haha.

I have an X-55 and I've had ghosting issues seemingly much more in the last month or so. Just as you mention...boost, silent running, cargo hatch...keeps a pilot on their toes! I use a separate powered hub and still having issues. I probably should check drivers. Overall happy with the HOTAS. Mine has held up well for more than a year now. But ghosting issue is a problem.

 

[DaveB]

Perennial problem with all HOTAS rigs.

99% of the time they are built with solid conductor connection wiring internally. This is a BAD THING(tm)

There is a DIFFERENCE between "wire" and "cable"

Solid conductors are mostly copper - as they flex back and forth from you moving your controller, they work-harden. Most metals do this to some extent, the worst ones in common use, the ones that do it fastest with the least number of bends, are copper and silver. They become stiff, then brittle. Then they crack. Most of the time, the two sides of the crack are held in contact by the insulation and volts continue to flow. The cracked conductor then works on the insulation, stretching it or sometimes even piercing it. When it stretches, you get certain positions of the controller where some buttons dont work at all. When it pierces the insulation you get spurious shorts to ground or to potential, and buttons start ghosting on you.

Stranded conductors are less vulnerable to this - because the strands can slide past each other, each strand suffers less bending stress, hardens less severely. If one strand should harden and crack, the odds are that the other strands will remain intact at this point and there will still be an intact conductor across the whole length of the run. However, if the cable run is cut too short for the full range of movement it can still get kinked with repetitive motion and set up the same kind of failure commonly seen in solid connectors.

Use stranded connectors and keep them long enough that they keep a large enough radius not to kink at the full range of the controllers movement.. Seems like a no-brainer doesn't it? Yeah, it is. It's engineering 101. Even high-end controllers like the warthog, though, fail on it. Stranded connectors are more complicated to assemble on a production line - takes more manual dexterity to do it clean. Longer cable runs require more internal management and more precise assembly - End result from doing it right is that the unit costs more to produce.

So no matter how much you pay for your HOTAS, sooner or later it will start failing and ghosting. That's when you do exactly what the manufacturer wants and buy a new one.

 

[Sylow]

[...]

.
All of that is true, but for the X-55/X-56 there's another frequently seen problem. On this system ghostpresses are very likely a power issue.
.
As background info: the X-55/56 draws power close to the maximum of what's specified for USB. Unfortunately many mainboards (even of expencive brands) often are a bit below the specifications. It also doesn't help that all USB ports on a mainboard feed from the same input from the power supply, which means that the more devices you have connected, the less power is available for each of them. (Yea, the technical truth is a bit more complicated, but i try to keep it simple enough to be understandable. )
.
The usual solution for the X-55/56 problem is to get a powered USB hub. That one reliably fixes this source of problems.
.
That being said, i unfortunately also have to say that all the reports of quality issues with the X-55/56 line are true. Within a bit over a year after buying my X-55, it had a cable break, resulting in buttons on the throttle only still working when the throttle was pushed forward. (When it was pulled back, the cables were bent differently and didn't transmit the signal any more. ) That actually cost me my ship twice. I first thought i must've been too clumsy or stupid to use defensive equipment on time, till i realized that it actually was a hardware problem. My replacement X-56 (X-55 was not available any more) lasted for less than a year, then a button on the joystick stopped working. The replacement i got when reporting that failure included a throttle where one of the two-way switches always reported to be pushed forward. (You could even push it back, then it reported to be pushed forward and back at the same time. ) Luckily i didn't sent the old system back yet, so i contacted the support of Amazon and they allowed me to keep the new Joystick and the old (and still working) throttle, while sending back both defective devices.
.
So all in all, i currently have a working system. I even also agree, in terms of layout and handling, the X-56 for me is better than the Warthog. (A friend of mine has the Warthog, but i actually prefer the X-56. ) Wouldn't it have so massive quality issues, i'd consider it to be the best HOTAS on the market. But with these quality issues present, i unfortunately have to say that people are well advised to look for something else.
.

 

[Arvel Yael]

Perennial problem with all HOTAS rigs.

99% of the time they are built with solid conductor connection wiring internally. This is a BAD THING(tm)

There is a DIFFERENCE between "wire" and "cable"

Solid conductors are mostly copper - as they flex back and forth from you moving your controller, they work-harden. Most metals do this to some extent, the worst ones in common use, the ones that do it fastest with the least number of bends, are copper and silver. They become stiff, then brittle. Then they crack. Most of the time, the two sides of the crack are held in contact by the insulation and volts continue to flow. The cracked conductor then works on the insulation, stretching it or sometimes even piercing it. When it stretches, you get certain positions of the controller where some buttons dont work at all. When it pierces the insulation you get spurious shorts to ground or to potential, and buttons start ghosting on you.

Stranded conductors are less vulnerable to this - because the strands can slide past each other, each strand suffers less bending stress, hardens less severely. If one strand should harden and crack, the odds are that the other strands will remain intact at this point and there will still be an intact conductor across the whole length of the run. However, if the cable run is cut too short for the full range of movement it can still get kinked with repetitive motion and set up the same kind of failure commonly seen in solid connectors.

Use stranded connectors and keep them long enough that they keep a large enough radius not to kink at the full range of the controllers movement.. Seems like a no-brainer doesn't it? Yeah, it is. It's engineering 101. Even high-end controllers like the warthog, though, fail on it. Stranded connectors are more complicated to assemble on a production line - takes more manual dexterity to do it clean. Longer cable runs require more internal management and more precise assembly - End result from doing it right is that the unit costs more to produce.

So no matter how much you pay for your HOTAS, sooner or later it will start failing and ghosting. That's when you do exactly what the manufacturer wants and buy a new one.

Very informative, have some rep.
Though I should point out that this HOTAS is about three weeks old .

 

[Doolittle]

Jesssh, what happened to the forum? Nothing seems to work properly now. Can't quote without losing what you type, can't edit and then decide you didn't need to without loosing your reply. Bad design. Didn't used to do that.

Glad to know I'll need to stay away from those HOTAS. Always thought they were probably cheapo depots. You got to go CH or Thrustmaster if you want to be able to repair and have some life out of your hotas without all the bugs Logitech seems to have.

Perennial problem with all HOTAS rigs.

99% of the time they are built with solid conductor connection wiring internally. This is a BAD THING(tm)

There is a DIFFERENCE between "wire" and "cable"

Solid conductors are mostly copper - as they flex back and forth from you moving your controller, they work-harden. Most metals do this to some extent, the worst ones in common use, the ones that do it fastest with the least number of bends, are copper and silver. They become stiff, then brittle. Then they crack. Most of the time, the two sides of the crack are held in contact by the insulation and volts continue to flow. The cracked conductor then works on the insulation, stretching it or sometimes even piercing it. When it stretches, you get certain positions of the controller where some buttons dont work at all. When it pierces the insulation you get spurious shorts to ground or to potential, and buttons start ghosting on you.

Stranded conductors are less vulnerable to this - because the strands can slide past each other, each strand suffers less bending stress, hardens less severely. If one strand should harden and crack, the odds are that the other strands will remain intact at this point and there will still be an intact conductor across the whole length of the run. However, if the cable run is cut too short for the full range of movement it can still get kinked with repetitive motion and set up the same kind of failure commonly seen in solid connectors.

Use stranded connectors and keep them long enough that they keep a large enough radius not to kink at the full range of the controllers movement.. Seems like a no-brainer doesn't it? Yeah, it is. It's engineering 101. Even high-end controllers like the warthog, though, fail on it. Stranded connectors are more complicated to assemble on a production line - takes more manual dexterity to do it clean. Longer cable runs require more internal management and more precise assembly - End result from doing it right is that the unit costs more to produce.

So no matter how much you pay for your HOTAS, sooner or later it will start failing and ghosting. That's when you do exactly what the manufacturer wants and buy a new one.

There you go..... Someone who has tinkered enough with the tech to understand how badly manufactured and designed it usually is. Usually only as long as the warranty period.

CH doesn't have this issue..... unless they've changed since I purchased my last one 10 years ago. And I'd imagine Thrustmaster is just as reliable. Saitech just looks cool. Mostly bling and no go.

 

[Crash1099]

Wait till the twist rudder breaks. I got plenty of junk x-56.

 

[CMDR Ofan]

Wait till the twist rudder breaks. I got plenty of junk x-56.

Ignoring the ana mini joy internals the x-56 is identical internally to the x-55 and therefore has all the same shonky internal issues.

I'm on my 7th RMA, trying to get an 8th I can't get one to work long enough to enjoy mundane issues like the power related button ghosting. Waiting on Logi to (re)build a support site to deal with Saitek issues so I can get the next RMA sent to me......

It was my worst ever hardware investment.

 

[dognosh]

X52 pro owner, it died on me after 12 or 13 years about 2 months ago. No ghosting or other issues,loved it.

X55 owner now, never seen ghosting, as I bought a powered usb hub for it. But then only had it for a short while.

 

[DaveB]

Very informative, have some rep.
Though I should point out that this HOTAS is about three weeks old .

Well, as other folks have said - low voltage is another cause. In fact the two can work synergistically - a cracked conductor that is making a "good enough" contact might result in a high enough resistance that "good enough" voltage isn't quite enough... But yeah, on a controller that young it's way more likely you're dealing with a marginal shortfall in USB power. That's a real squirrely thing to prove though, There's an engineering version of "Murphy's Law" that says "Tolerances accumulate unidirectionally" - If the device you're plugging in is good with X volts +/- 2%, and the socket you're plugging in to can supply X volts +/- 2%, you just know that THIS device will require +2% and the socket will supply -2%, a differential of 4% so it breaks - EVEN THOUGH BOTH SIDES PASSED QA!

Rep back atcha for putting up with my geekery

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

Looks like a great HOTAS too bad about the cheap build.

I like my CH Throttle and 16M stick. My throttle has a ministick but my joystick doesn't. I only have 4 dof + throttle forwards/backwards.

 

[Han Zulu]

...
Yep, I've been struck by the deadly X-56 ghosting issue - I did think this was very much a saitek/logitech issue and not an FD one, but for some reason a google for "Saitek X56 Ghosting" brings up loads of pages, almost all of which seem to have "Elite Dangerous" in the title. I don't - for example - get any issues in DCS World.

This is one reason I now use Thrustmaster. I got the cheap PS version that's compatible with PC. Works great, except there's quite a limited number of buttons, so you have to create "shift" keys, but it works. Haven't had the problem of ghost pushes of the buttons anymore.

What bugged me was that I had to spend 10% extra of my brain focusing on whatever the ghost would do during a combat. Turning on silent running and losing shield while being shot at, and boosting into some asteroid, and so on. Apparently it has something to do with Intel's USB drivers or such. Don't know. I will follow this thread and see if someone has an answer so I can go back to the Saitek (really liked the quality and feel of them).