Yet another AI question: ammo ?

I don't mind the infinite ammo so much, other than frag cannons....I like to get in close and those things HURT. And it seems like every other large ship I take on is loaded with em.
I would mind it even less if we could carry spare ammo drums in a cargo hold...Ahem...Hint hint :rolleyes:
 
I think I've seen NPCs run out of ammo, but this was long before 1.3.

Honestly, I think that realistic ammunition consumption would make the whole AI programming overly complicated and the resulting game-play value wouldn't be worth the effort.

I completely disagree.

AI should play by the same rules as players and everything should be done to make more skilled AI capable against players within those rules. AI having blatant advantages that players do not cheapens any improvements that are actually made to them.

Usually, the ammunition lasts for more than one single fight and this is single fight is all that does matter for the player.

The first time I defeated Big Mama in the tutorial, I did so by forcing her to expend all of her multiicannon turret ammo (or at least making her fire till she overheated) before I moved in for the kill.

Likewise, I have shot down upwards of a dozen CMDRs I otherwise would not have been able to by forcing them to complete exhaust their ammo, and have prevailed over countless others because they had to take ammo limitations into account while fighting me.

Who cares, that this or that Anaconda did fight for hours in a combat zone?

I do.

Ammo should be tracked, and ammo levels should influence the AI behavior. With full or nearly full ammo, they should be more willing to expend it. As magazine reserves dwindle, they should become more evasive, more conservative with shots from ammo based weapons. When they are exhausted, they should jump out an head for the nearest allied station to resupply, and players should be able to follow, and take advantage of this.

Fuel should be similarly tracked. It should be possible wage a battle of attrition against anyone, not just CMDRs, by forcing them to expend consumables faster, or by attacking when they are already depleted.

Combat should violent and short

Combat should take however long it takes, but everyone should be playing by the same basic rules.
 
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I was wondering the exact same thing for a while, they seemed to have quite a lot of ammo for my understanding

NPC Ships with frag cannons are really annoying in conflict zones in particular. Almost every other turret of Annies and Pythons is a frag cannon with infinite ammo.

As SJC said, it is 'by design' and i understand that, but then it is double unfair that human players can only have 30 confettis. This weapon is fun, but the max ammo is very impractical and i never equip it because it just runs out too quick. I would like to have fun with it for more than 3 ships in battle sessions. I usually use a cannon instead when i deal with unshielded ships

Rail guns have kinda same issue too but they feel much more efficient to me so i care a bit less and use them more often
 
I've definitely been in combats where I have been hit by more than 31 railgun volleys, and I've seen wingmates take continual rail fire from an AI Asp for the better part of 15 minutes while we were focused on fighting CMDRs.

I understand that ammo being relevant is often the exception, rather than the rule, but if the ultimate goal of NPC AI is to provide a credible facsimile of player action and capabilities (even in scenarios of more limited scope), there will soon come a time when they can no longer play by different rules.
 
Having fought in many combat zones, especially since v1.3, it seems that most of the ships using projectile weapons use either frag cannons or railguns, with the railguns mostly being used by Asps. It is really annoying that the AI can infinitely use the frag cannons and can be seen using the frag cannons on both player and npc ships for lengths of time that a player ship would have long run out of ammo. What is worse is that by being able to spam frag cannon rounds with abandon, the NPC ships are using this weapon to take down shields when frag cannons would not be used by players as a primary weapon to take down shields due to ammo limitations. I believe that if you have imposed ammo limitations on a weapon to in part dictate how and when a weapon is used by players, then you should also have the AI coded to take those limitations in mind when using those weapons, otherwise weapons that are geared to work best in specific situations become overpower when used by the AI compared to when used by players.

Example: The Fragment cannon
The fragment cannon has the limitations of small ammunition total, shot spread increasing with range and short effective range to offset its high damage, high hit probability (even when using turrets or gimbal mounts, the frag cannon is less affected by chaff than other weapons due to its large area of effect shotgun like spread), and relatively fast projectile speed. The small ammunition total is the largest of its limitations that dictate how and when the weapon is used by players, as by the time it has taken down the shields of a comparable enemy ship, there will be few rounds remaining to damage the hull. This becomes more pronounced when there are multiple opponents and will generally cause players to only fire this weapon after their current target has lost its shielding. As it currently stands, the AI are able to use this weapon to engage multiple targets with continuous fire and can be more effective against shields than many AI laser weapon loadouts (especially those that are mixed lasers and projectile weapons) as those due conform to the same limitations of energy drain and heat generation that players encounter. Additionally, the ability of the AI to endlessly fire fragment cannons is more immersion breaking than endless railgun usage, as railguns will rapidly deplete weapons capacitors and generate heat which will limit their observed firing to short bursts instead of the more continuous firing of the frag cannon and multicannons. With a total of 33 ammo (3 in cannon, 30 in reserve), the fragment cannon has 11 clips of 3 rounds. This means an AI opponent can only fire 11 volleys (3 rounds fired rapidly followed by longer pause to change clips) before an observant player will notice that the AI is not conforming to ammunition limitations. For battles between large heavy ships (python, imperial clipper, Fer-Der-Lance, Anaconda), those 11 volleys can easily be used in the time until one of the two ships is destroyed if the AI is using nothing but fragment cannons. This makes the AI not being affected by ammunition limitations apparent, especially so when the AI ship was previously engaging other targets.

I can understand the reasons for giving the AI unlimited ammunition (from above discussions in this thread), but I feel the AI needs to in some way be confined in its usage of ammunition using weapons to give the weapons similar usage and utility to that of what a player is constrained to. An AI controlled ship that uses a weapon in a way that a player cannot due to having unlimited ammo is just as frustrating to a player as an enemy never having to pause their firing to change magazines/clips when the player must pause their firing to change their magazine/clip.
 
I understand what everyone's saying about the Frag Cannon, but personally it's not a big deal to me. I think the last time an NPC killed me with a Frag Cannon was back in December, and I was flying an Eagle. (Nasty head-on shot, that woke me up.) The frag cloud itself is slow enough that a good pilot can often avoid alot of the spread anyway; a frag cloud isn't that effective in a turning battle.

An NPC is simply a different challenge than another Cmdr. They fly differently, they attack and retreat differently... so be it.
 
Oh... Well what I mean is I'm now programming them to use missiles much smarter. Before they seldom tried to use them. Now, whenever it's tactically viable, they'll use 'em. :) Oh boy, I'm having way too much fun! :D

does this include that the ai is not using them against larger ships? or just that they wont use them against shields?
or overall not using them when the target has point defense? shooting missile after missile against a target that can simply destroy them is not that viable.
also it would be pretty weird if they would use a "small" missile (racks have the same size anyway) at long range against a conda...thats like shooting with peas^^

btw...can NPC ships use the Powerplay weapons? NPC with a Pack would be pure horror...
 
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I think I've seen NPCs run out of ammo, but this was long before 1.3.



I completely disagree.

AI should play by the same rules as players and everything should be done to make more skilled AI capable against players within those rules. AI having blatant advantages that players do not cheapens any improvements that are actually made to them.



The first time I defeated Big Mama in the tutorial, I did so by forcing her to expend all of her multiicannon turret ammo (or at least making her fire till she overheated) before I moved in for the kill.

Likewise, I have shot down upwards of a dozen CMDRs I otherwise would not have been able to by forcing them to complete exhaust their ammo, and have prevailed over countless others because they had to take ammo limitations into account while fighting me.



I do.

Ammo should be tracked, and ammo levels should influence the AI behavior. With full or nearly full ammo, they should be more willing to expend it. As magazine reserves dwindle, they should become more evasive, more conservative with shots from ammo based weapons. When they are exhausted, they should jump out an head for the nearest allied station to resupply, and players should be able to follow, and take advantage of this.

Fuel should be similarly tracked. It should be possible wage a battle of attrition against anyone, not just CMDRs, by forcing them to expend consumables faster, or by attacking when they are already depleted.



Combat should take however long it takes, but everyone should be playing by the same basic rules.

Well put. This is the direction I thought the game was going in. Otherwise, where is the depth going to actually come from?
 
Honestly, an ammo limit for ai would be a game changer, whatever those small ships with huge shields user say... Being able to wait two minutes for a Conda in a Cz to burn through its ammo and then engage it more safely would be something I'd do as much as I can. Either don't make the ai reckless with its ammo, or limit it !

Love your work SJA, but THIS is an issue :(
 
It is a bit unfair that the AI enjoy infinite frag cannon ammo at CZ since players are limited to 30.
 
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That's a pity - but I suppose unless AI made a run for it, headed for station, docked and came back - which would require a level of persistence that would end up being tied to your "instance" with them, I can't see a sensible rule for them. Fix it for your island in the game, and as soon as they enter supercruise to escape they'd recharge...

Do they follow the same recharge rates over time as we do - for instance if we follow them into supercruise or via a jump, do they recharge at the same slow rate?
 
Oh... Well what I mean is I'm now programming them to use missiles much smarter. Before they seldom tried to use them. Now, whenever it's tactically viable, they'll use 'em. :) Oh boy, I'm having way too much fun! :D

Great to hear that. Speaking of which: is it me or missiles now actually deal damages?
I have been destroyed/finished a couple of times by missiles, I don't laugh anymore when I see one incoming.
 
Great to hear that. Speaking of which: is it me or missiles now actually deal damages?
I have been destroyed/finished a couple of times by missiles, I don't laugh anymore when I see one incoming.

mhh just rewatched a video i made a few days ago, tried how the Prisma Shield looks like on a friend.
Shot down his shields and just for fun i shot his Anaconda with 2 Missiles (from medium racks, but that should not make a difference)
They dealt around 6% Damage (so 3% each), thats not that bad. I remember that they dealt such a small amount of damage against a cobra not long ago...and that was a much larger salvo and not just two of them.
 
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mhh just rewatched a video i made a few days ago, tried how the Prisma Shield looks like on a friend.
Shot down his shields and just for fun i shot his Anaconda with 2 Missiles (from medium racks, but that should not make a difference)
They dealt around 6% Damage (so 3% each), thats not that bad. I remember that they dealt such a small amount of damage against a cobra not long ago...and that was a much larger salvo and not just two of them.

3% each sounds really low though, they WERE OP before the nerf, but I really believe they've been overnerfed. The fact that they dealt any shield damage was kind of the problem, and the problem was big, but a missile should tear through hull a it used to do. Now if we could just reduce the RoF of those dumbfires, I think we might be able to achieve something good
 
3% each sounds really low though, they WERE OP before the nerf, but I really believe they've been overnerfed. The fact that they dealt any shield damage was kind of the problem, and the problem was big, but a missile should tear through hull a it used to do. Now if we could just reduce the RoF of those dumbfires, I think we might be able to achieve something good

3% for a small missile (small and medium racks are the same, just with different ammo cap)...that doesnt sound that bad
i still believe that someday there will be a large multicannon, large and huge missile racks and torps and all those things.
 
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3% for a small missile (small and medium racks are the same, just with different ammo cap)...that doesnt sound that bad
i still believe that someday there will be a large multicannon, large and huge missile racks and torps and all those things.

Here's hoping this concept art wasn't done in vain
Torpedo_MissileEvolution.jpg
 
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