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Powerplay Zemina Torval didn't get hr 8104 after winning the expansion
- Thread starter GoodGorilla
- Start date
Torval was in turmoil, she had to lose 6 systems to get out of turmoil. So she had no CC to expand in.
It doesn't matter. Based on page #2 of the manual we should have lost all eight.
"Any control systems that started the cycle in turmoil, will revolt at the end of the cycle if the Power is still running a CC deficit. Systems that revolt are no longer controlled by the power."
Turmoil is the way to get rid of systems we do not want. We did the math and knew that based on getting rid of those systems, and our current level of undermining and fortifications, Zemina Torval would have several hundreds in available CC in spare.
These were our expected numbers 5 minutes before the cycle ended.
Systems: 38
CC: 2935
Upkeep: 912
Current upkeep: 1482
Overheads CC:1126.40985
Available CC: 896.5901496
Counting current deficit: 326.5901496
326 CC is more than enough to pay for the expansion.
"Any control systems that started the cycle in turmoil, will revolt at the end of the cycle if the Power is still running a CC deficit. Systems that revolt are no longer controlled by the power."
Turmoil is the way to get rid of systems we do not want. We did the math and knew that based on getting rid of those systems, and our current level of undermining and fortifications, Zemina Torval would have several hundreds in available CC in spare.
These were our expected numbers 5 minutes before the cycle ended.
Systems: 38
CC: 2935
Upkeep: 912
Current upkeep: 1482
Overheads CC:1126.40985
Available CC: 896.5901496
Counting current deficit: 326.5901496
326 CC is more than enough to pay for the expansion.
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Yes you can. Look at the screenshot. We expanded.
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If you look at the Powerplay screen for Torval right now you will see that she has:
Income: 3084
Upkeep:1608
Overheads:1313
Available:+163
That is not a turmoil situation.
If you add her successfully fought expansion you would get:
Income: 3188
Upkeep:1634
Overheads:1415
Available:+139
That is not also not a turmoil situation.
I noticed this item in the 1.4 CQC (beta) change notes:
- Correctly handle losing turmoil systems to revolt if the power in turmoil nearly expanded their way out of turmoil only to be undermined back into it again
Have we been the victim of this bug?
If this cycle would have been post 1.4 release would we have expanded?
Devs can you please look at this as there is clearly something strange going on.
Income: 3084
Upkeep:1608
Overheads:1313
Available:+163
That is not a turmoil situation.
If you add her successfully fought expansion you would get:
Income: 3188
Upkeep:1634
Overheads:1415
Available:+139
That is not also not a turmoil situation.
I noticed this item in the 1.4 CQC (beta) change notes:
- Correctly handle losing turmoil systems to revolt if the power in turmoil nearly expanded their way out of turmoil only to be undermined back into it again
Have we been the victim of this bug?
If this cycle would have been post 1.4 release would we have expanded?
Devs can you please look at this as there is clearly something strange going on.
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Hi John Casey,
You don't pay CC when you expand. You pay for the "expansion attempt" when it is successfully prepared.
HR 8104 was prepared in Cycle 12 for 130 CC, paid for by the reserve from Cycle 11. It was successfully expanded in Cycle 13, but has not made on to our control system list for cycle 14.
That is the bug.
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Incorrect - you cannot prepare systems when you are in deficit. If you have previously paid for an "expansion attempt" and then the expansion beats the opposition then provided the system wouldn't have caused you to have a negative CC balance then the expansion is successful.
Well, I can't speak for your own internal calculations - all I can tell you is that if you use the Galnet numbers I calculated Torval to be at -35 CC, but who knows when that was last updated.
Having run Torval's numbers based on screenshots I took very shortly before the cycle turnover, I get the following results:
Fortified: 1
Default: 16
Cancelled: 8
Undermined: 11
Since I don't know the status of the turmoil systems (due to that bug), I'm assuming they were both successfully fortified and undermined, leaving them cancelled. It's counted in the default score here, though, as that's how my spreadsheet does it.
Income: 3,454 CC
Required upkeep: 1,696 CC
Overheads: 1,871 CC
End result: -113 CC.
Let's run that with HR 8104. Since the upkeep is taken into account in the potential value, I'll only increase the income and not the required upkeep.
Income: 3,532 CC
Required upkeep: 1,696 CC
Overheads: 1,998 CC
End result: -162 CC.
Since Torval has less than 54 systems, her overheads keep growing at an exponential rate when adding systems, which results in the increase of 127 CC to her overheads. This is why adding HR 8104 to the equation results in a worsening of 49 CC
(162 CC - 113 CC) = 49 CC = (127 CC - 78 CC)
Now, obviously my data is imperfect, because the game never tells you how old the information you see in the powerplay data is, so I'd honestly be very interested in seeing what your internal bookkeeping has in terms of fortification and undermining merits for your systems.
Martin you are missing the point here.
The actual calculation by frontier is correct as displayed in game right now you can check out the power play screen for Zemina Torval.
Income: 3084
Upkeep:1608
Overheads for 40 systems:1313
Available:+163
WE HAVE A CC SURPLUS
Next adjust for the expansion system HR 8104 which has an income of +104 and an upkeep of -26. Overheads will also increase by 1 system.
Hence:
Income: 3084 + 104 = 3188
Upkeep:1608 + 26 = 1634
Overheads for 41 system: 1415
Available:+139 CC
LOOK EVERYBODY! WE STILL HAVE A CC SURPLUS
You can get all these numbers from the game right now.
No need to take screenshots before cycle end - Have a few more ZZZZZZZZZZ!!!
The actual calculation by frontier is correct as displayed in game right now you can check out the power play screen for Zemina Torval.
Income: 3084
Upkeep:1608
Overheads for 40 systems:1313
Available:+163
WE HAVE A CC SURPLUS
Next adjust for the expansion system HR 8104 which has an income of +104 and an upkeep of -26. Overheads will also increase by 1 system.
Hence:
Income: 3084 + 104 = 3188
Upkeep:1608 + 26 = 1634
Overheads for 41 system: 1415
Available:+139 CC
LOOK EVERYBODY! WE STILL HAVE A CC SURPLUS
You can get all these numbers from the game right now.
No need to take screenshots before cycle end - Have a few more ZZZZZZZZZZ!!!
If it helps I have all info from cycle 7 forth, taken 5-10 minutes before cycle restart.
You are correct. You are, however, also assuming that someone didn't manage to do a snipe on your expansion before the end of the cycle.
The game is notoriously slow at updating numbers, and there is no way of knowing if the data you have is 10 seconds old or 10 hours old. All you can do is hope and pray that it's 10 seconds old.
Maybe try asking the Hudson players if they have screenshots of handing in merits for it?
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Cycle 13 would be fine as long as it has the merit numbers rather than percentages. I'm working on a spreadsheet to do very detailed analysis of cycle 13, and annoyingly there's no way of getting the numbers that the game actually uses for end of cycle calculations.
Which is annoying, because if we had that, then this discussion would be rather moot, because we could see immediately if Torval actually won the expansion fight or if it was sniped at the last minute.
You make a very good point Martin.
If we didn't win the expansion then fair enough. Only frontier can confirm that for us now.
But I hope that I have proven at least that the expansion was not cancelled due to a CC deficit.
If we didn't win the expansion then fair enough. Only frontier can confirm that for us now.
But I hope that I have proven at least that the expansion was not cancelled due to a CC deficit.
The screenshot in op was taken by me right after dropping my last haul directly into HR 8104 right before the cycle restarted. The last numbers were equal to the ones you see in the shot. A coordinated drop of +25k-30k within the last minutes is possible, but very far fetched.
Great job!
Hi Ben,
The link in the OP shows the expansion minutes before cycle end. As you can see Torval is winning. We believe that as we started cycle 14 with a CC surplus, and providing that there wasn't a massive swing in the last few seconds then Torval should have expanded.
I think we have established above that the only valid reasons for not getting the expansion are either a bugged expansion result screen with Hudson winning the opposition or a bug in calculating if the expansion should succeed due to last cycles turmoil.
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