The Thargoid War: Thoughts and Feelings

[Neilski]

Leaving the word "insult" to the side, it's still pretty bizarre that FD's narrative is now pushing Alert systems.
The resounding reply from the community is "been there, tried that, it sucks; no thanks" and it's not like that shouldn't have been clear already - before this suggestion.

So I think FD need to engineer a little guidance or simply change the way Alert systems work (Orthrus mods, or something else). Right now, I see no reason to try hunting/killing Orthrus myself.

 

[IM2D]

Leaving the word "insult" to the side, it's still pretty bizarre that FD's narrative is now pushing Alert systems.
The resounding reply from the community is "been there, tried that, it sucks; no thanks" and it's not like that shouldn't have been clear already - before this suggestion.

So I think FD need to engineer a little guidance or simply change the way Alert systems work (Orthrus mods, or something else). Right now, I see no reason to try hunting/killing Orthrus myself.

Yeah, perhaps there is still something we have yet to find. We have no evidence in either side; no evidence to prove that there is something out there that we have yet to find and no evidence to prove that there is all we have found about the Orthrus. In this time, the view maybe subjective towards the critical side, but until someone finds something interesting, then perhaps this view will shift.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I always thought of the "narrative" as the story.
What is being mentioned here recently is game balance?

 

[IM2D]

I always thought of the "narrative" as the story.
What is being mentioned here recently is game balance?

So from when Galnet returned in 3306, Frontier's approach to communicating game balances and changes to the community was through a more narrative approach. Narrative can also be inferred as the storyline of Elite Dangerous, but narrative is also the communication gateway between the community and the development team.

Have you noticed how unlinear the narrative has been in Elite Dangerous? Sometimes the narrative tells plot of a character's arc in Elite Dangerous. The current narrative of D-2 and Salvation are great examples of story-driven narratives. While the narrative of Aegis recommending us to change focus from fighting in invasion systems to systems in alert is an attempt by Frontier hinting at a possible clue that we may or may not have missed. Usually an announcement type narrative, explaining the reasoning behind an increase or decrease in balance are something that Frontier has been using to communicate to the community. Its very role-playing oriented but very blunt and meaningless for the more technical players.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

@IM2D
Pretty sure i like curveballs so the story isn't telegraphed as well.
However, when they say "balance", it's probably important. Let's not confuse things too much.
I'm just happy they're bringing the story elements back into it.
I'm sure they can improve the "how to give candy to humanity" thing they did because the story took a bit of a backset there, imo.
I like story fluff, not all do though but consistency, continuity are important, imo.

 

[ariaxum]

While I'm pretty sure the "we" referred to in some of these posts is definitely more than one player, at least I would greatly appreciate it if the word "we" is only used in the argument 1) if the author is a member of the royal family, or 2) if weight of the argument can be demonstrated in practice, e.g. in the form of an address.

 

[IM2D]

While I'm pretty sure the "we" referred to in some of these posts is definitely more than one player, at least I would greatly appreciate it if the word "we" is only used in the argument 1) if the author is a member of the royal family, or 2) if weight of the argument can be demonstrated in practice, e.g. in the form of an address.

"we" also implies a group of people who share a similar interest, a common goal, or an established problem that requires addressing. In your last example, "we" are address this issue, "we" are indicating the problem with the logical approach of low Orthrus spawns, "we" are a group of technical gamers who discuss and learn about the mechanics of the war so that casual players outside know what activities they can do in their available free time to make an impact to the war efforts.

Ian Doncaster, Yttrbio, the likes of the Anti-Xeno Community, CMDRs Grimscrub & Xarionn, the board and researchers of Canonn, the Defense Council of Humanity, and the groups involved in the Thargoid war; "we" have the exact same problem. Aegis proposes a credit balance to the Orthrus, attempting to start an incentive to invite us to investigate Alert systems, however, we all see low spawn rates of the Orthrus, therefore making it not worth the time for most players involving in the war - especially those who don't have the time like some of us do.

 

[IM2D]

I'm sure they can improve the "how to give candy to humanity" thing they did because the story took a bit of a backset there, imo.
I like story fluff, not all do though but consistency, continuity are important, imo.

Possibly, but it doesn't make up for a half-a**** attempt to balancing the Thargoid war either. The problem here is, some of the community wants to divert and start research work on Alert systems, some of the community wants to engage against the Orthrus. We have a big chunk of data to support how the "meta" is working and here comes Aegis or Frontier with a proposal where there's very little data and evidence to back up why this should be significant or preferred over the thing that's working for 5 months.

Regardless of the narrative plotlines and how the balancing actually turned out, I'm not gatekeeping people from exploring and investigating Alert systems, nor I am trying to divert them to stay away from these Alert systems. I'm simply voicing the disappointment and frustrations that the communities felt since Thursday's maintenance tick and holding discussions like how you and I are here talking.

Like you, I am also curious / intrigued why Aegis / Frontier decided to tell us these hints, there were around 3 hints given to us about the importance of the Orthrus. I would be interested to see if someone in the next month or so, before Update 15, finds something in relation to the Orthrus, or should Bruce follow up with this thread, have another re-balance be issued. Do you think maybe rarity has to do with it? Do you think a system where there is a least resistive path, there would be more Orthrus in the next cycle?

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

@IM2D
Maybe you're not doing it right since they may have changed things while having hinted that such things may have been possible a good while back...
Old info may not be credible, jus' sayin'.
I can say no more...

 

[IM2D]

Maybe you're not doing it right since they may have changed things while having hinted that such things may have been possible a good while back...
Old info may not be credible, jus' sayin'.

Maybe you are right, again, there's no evidence to suggest we have found everything and no evidence to suggest that there are things that still needs to be searching after.

But what is evident is that the amount of Threat 4 Non Human Signal Sources found in Alert Systems, where the Orthrus is known to spawn, has such a low spawning rate. Players that try to get data off of systems in Alert in correlation to the Orthrus, have to spend a lot of hours to get a small return in sample size.

To those who enjoy the game however, its a much different story. You fly around until you find one, you can observe it, sample it or kill it. You did your part. But what does that mean? Do you contribute to the pushback of the Thargoids in that region? Are you adding your resistance to the total resistive path and changing their expansion? How does killing, sampling, collecting probes help make a change to outcome the war?

I can or cannot say you are right about the data. If the update is to rebalance the expansion of the Thargoid War, then I will post about findings later. This is still the first week of the interim update so there is still very little data to back up if the old data is relevant or irrelevant. However this is still recent data, only a few weeks old data since Update 14.02.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

@IM2D
The way i look at it is that FD have set you a problem, so forget what has happened before, look at it for what it is now.
Patches change things... so go fish.

 

[Neilski]

@IM2D
The way i look at it is that FD have set you a problem, so forget what has happened before, look at it for what it is now.
Patches change things... so go fish.

People will consider trying/retrying stuff. I'm sure some of them will do it. Others may perhaps think about the track record of FD and decide not to bother, given the experiences listed above, and given that - frankly - FD are unlikely to have paid attention and actually FIXED the issues described by many players which made them abandon the gameplay that Aegis are now trying to encourage. It's a question of confidence: does one feel confident that FD have tackled the issues?
[edit: for sure, I'm gonna sit this one out and wait for reports from the keen few]

 

[IM2D]

so forget what has happened before, look at it for what it is now.
Patches change things... so go fish.

Allow me to reiterate the fact that all Frontier has done, in this update, was to upp the bond of the Orthrus. Nothing else was done. The amount of Threat 4 NHSS's that spawn in Alert systems are low, with guaranteed Orthrus spawns almost to none.

By ignoring the past, which has a lot of evidence and data, regardless of how many patches there were following Update 14, every patch is an extension to add / balance / remove from the platform it was built on top of. That is by default anything software is built up upon, non argumentative.

Where would you go to find the system of a least resistive path by the Thargoids? You would use historical data. How would one be able to find an Orthrus? In Threat 4 NHSS's through historical data. How frequently do these Orthrus spawn? No so much and how do we know? Through historical data.

Why are you trying to suppress problems supported by these historical data and evidence in an attempt to allow others to be ignorant of a problem? Because the game, in your opinion, is fine, and that is how everyone should look at it.

EDIT: I'm not saying your views are wrong, its totally valid to have a viewpoint like that and its fine that half of the community thinks like this and the other half thinks of another way. That is how this community is built up. I believe everyone should have a fair voice. If you like this game, and you support it in everyway possible, you go right ahead. But if you feel attacked and offended that your beloved game is being trampled by others who disagree and think the game is a garbage game, you are as equal as they are in voice their opinions about a game.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

@Neilski
They said very early on that the thargoids would become weaker the more they expanded.
It's that human expectation that one should always win easily, borne out of "feed me" MMO's, that is the problem these days.
This game, not so much. Effort is required.

This is your chance, fail at your own peril.
I will just watch... for funsies.
Humanity is divided on the issue anyway and that wasn't hard, just expected.
There will probably be consequences when/if you fail as well.
Well, hopefully....

 

[IM2D]

They said very early on that the thargoids would become weaker the more they expanded.
It's that human expectation that one should always win easily, borne out of "feed me" MMO's, that is the problem these days.
This game, not so much. Effort is required.

Effort is required, but until the acknowledgement of having said Orthrus spawn rate be intentional or not, then we will see where the path is headed.
I agree that the effort is needed, and that there should be more of the theme of space is dangerous, and humanity is losing to an alien domination. That part I agree with you that people should be more persistent into diving to doing more for the gameplay.

But a game can only be so fun when the amount of hours to put turns from gameplay to an occupation, and doing that in a game is not fun. Just like for some people, they are fighting back the Thargoids on a 24/7 basis. I personally have nothing against it nor do I have any reason to support it either, that's the player's choice and that's their decision if they want to stick playing a space game for their entire day.

Which is why there are people who are voicing their frustration both in here and in the Discovery Scanner news forums, we're expect to fight everyday, or fight for however long that the player's free time is willing to give them. And yet somehow Frontier decides it would be fun for the community to torture themselves to find a single Orthrus, collect its data and put that data on a spreadsheet for others to see and use.

I wouldn't call that gameplay.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

@IM2D
Keyword was "change". That's all i'm suggesting.
And worry not, i'm not offended in any way as there was no cause be.. It's just a discussion but they can change things in a patch.
Do, do not... matters not to me.
Historical data is old data though... using that to win a war will likely be your undoing... as human history has proven.

 

[Jack Winter]

Perhaps the community is divided between those who are looking for improvements from the game and those who are experiencing the game in its current phase. Nothing is utopian in the community that is Elite Dangerous.

Attitude is what sets those who feel insulted and those who enjoy the game. You and I are players with that different prespective. I can't speak on behalf of those who enjoy the game, but I can at least speak on behalf of the latter.

Frontier Developments is notorious for acknowledging player-input feedback when most of their time is respectably developing the sandbox in which we play in. Some people from this company do play this game, but not to the levels of where players who bought the game has. Inherently, it is assumed by us (and us is not in reference to all people) that players are the ones who play-test and help with the development of the game.

The core belief of this demanding group is, "we hope for the better of this game that we're passionate about, we're willing to break the game to improve and enrich the experience of others".

The issue that's brought forth between this community that views it in a critical perspective, is that we have found the bugs and the problems, and therefore the assumption arises that any bugs that are found should be recognized by the development team to a degree. We didn't get that response, and because of how technical and in depth players are willing to dive in, and yet get ignored by the developement team in the end because they have their own story to tell, we feel they've insulted our devotion to this game.

Personally I think that the bug issues is the absolutely biggest problem the game has. There is close to no interaction with players over bugs, and there are pretty big ones that seem to stay around forever. The tissue racker also seems completely useless, and cumbersome to use. I can understand if Frontier stays quiet about future developments, but it seem inacceptable to be so callous about bug reports, communication, and fixes. Though I also have to say that each update has hundreds of bug fixes that aren't in the patch notes, so it's not as they don't fix any bugs at all.

I can understand if someone is upset about bugs, so am I at times. Though I've never ever considered to be insulted by a program. I suppose I could be insulted by MS for all the crap they have in Windows, or the HP printing and scanning software for the new printer I just bought, the Corsair keyboard, mouse, and headset and the Icue software that came with it, the heat spreader on my Intel CPU, etc... Though personally I just get somewhat grumpy and irritated and find way to work around the problems.

I find ED enjoyable so I like to play it, seeing how it is I just get on with it. If something's so bugged that I can't get around it, then I simply do something else. To be honest, I don't think that any amount of outrage on the forum will change things one single iota.

I'm still wondering if we aren't missing something...

 

[Jack Winter]

FWIW, I'm hearing rumours that you get a lot more orthrus if you fly in a wing.

I'm going to have to check that out!

 

[IM2D]

Keyword was "change". That's all i'm suggesting.

That's fine. Maybe I should see a different side to this but right now I'm unable to.

Historical data is old data though... using that to win a war will likely be your undoing... as human history has proven.

That's valid and I agree with that. I do want to engage in Orthrus research for the communities that are involved in the Thargoid war, but until Frontier has acknowledged this feedback as intentional design or as an unintended bug, its fair say between the path that is generally accepted by the overall community versus something that is better but has yet to be found and researched upon.

I can understand if someone is upset about bugs, so am I at times. Though I've never ever considered to be insulted by a program. I suppose I could be insulted by MS for all the crap they have in Windows, or the HP printing and scanning software for the new printer I just bought, the Corsair keyboard, mouse, and headset and the Icue software that came with it, the heat spreader on my Intel CPU, etc... Though personally I just get somewhat grumpy and irritated and find way to work around the problems.

I feel like I should restate my point in other words. It feels insulting that Frontier decided to add a Galnet article about recommending players to find Orthrus vessels. I was never insulted at the game or else I'd be demanding a refund right now despite playing the game for about 12,000 hours.

Just like when the Anti-Xeno Intiaitive discovered how badly they implemented ship kits causing additional damage, and it wasn't a small amount, but a multiplier, that of 2-4x of its original damage! Frontier... please... do better.

 

[Jack Winter]

That's fine. Maybe I should see a different side to this but right now I'm unable to.

That's valid and I agree with that. I do want to engage in Orthrus research for the communities that are involved in the Thargoid war, but until Frontier has acknowledged this feedback as intentional design or as an unintended bug, its fair say between the path that is generally accepted by the overall community versus something that is better but has yet to be found and researched upon.

I feel like I should restate my point in other words. It feels insulting that Frontier decided to add a Galnet article about recommending players to find Orthrus vessels. I was never insulted at the game or else I'd be demanding a refund right now despite playing the game for about 12,000 hours.

Just like when the Anti-Xeno Intiaitive discovered how badly they implemented ship kits causing additional damage, and it wasn't a small amount, but a multiplier, that of 2-4x of its original damage! Frontier... please... do better.

They've tried to tell us for a long time that alert systems are important and we haven't figured out how or why. Or yes, alternatively Frontier has bollocksed it in a big way! But if we don't listen, isn't a Galnet a good way? And after all not all players are on discords or on the forum..