So I checked out Elite after ditching it for Star Citizen

[Northpin]

Source? We have next to no info on that and I'm sure Frontier didn't use the word 'promise'.

Edit: I didnt said they used the word promise and i didnt used it either
"looks promising" is completely different than "i promise you stuff"


This announcement thread

(emphasis mine)

Update 15
Update 15 is set to build upon the narrative and unlock the next major stage of the Thargoid War. This will be among the biggest moments in the game to date and we’re excited to see how you react.

 

[Jack Winter]

On the other hand, Elite Dangerous is about twice as popular, if not more, than X4 Foundations (hissss!), yet X4 feels more "invested in" by its developers than Elite. X4 also doesn't have Arx or the requirement to buy alts to run multiple different saves, so I feel Frontier makes way more money off of Elite than Egosoft does from X4.

Of course "feel" is the operative word. Meanwhile, No Man's Sky is kicking both our butts when it comes to active and total players, yet HG doesn't make any money from any of their updates or cosmetics. I'm not sure how the economics of that works..

It's probably also determined by the size of the studio and it's expenses, how many copies of games and DLCs gets sold, and how many other IPs the studio has that needs nurturing and development. Still my point was look at what they've accomplished with far less money that SC has brought in, I wonder what they would have accomplished with the funding that SC has received.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

LOL, you're right! I sometimes "mix my metaphors" - if a third person is immersive enough, I see the world in a first person sort of way, at least in my mind's eye when it's a fond but distant memory. But to keep it pure, I'm now not sure what my favorite space-based FPS would be. Perhaps Overwatch (moonbase map is space-based). Though I'm sure Overwatch isn't a pure "COD-like" FPS either, despite being in the first person shooting at other players.

Overwatch, from what I gather, is a MOBA (Massive Online Battle Arena) FPS. But I never played the game, so the details of what category it belongs to, elude me.

I suppose the closest FPS to Odyssey that I last enjoyed would be the earlier Battlefield games. IIRC Battlefield 3 was a favorite of mine. Star Wars Battlefront is probably closer to Elite being space-based, but while beautiful, I grew bored with the actual gameplay quicker than expected, not sure exactly why.

Both of those would classify as FPSs, but Elite Dangerous is, IMHO, due to its "philosophy", for better and for worse, a quite unique endeavour that has little comparison possible among existing games.

I was also a HUGE fan of a game called MAG, which is kinda like Battlefield but better IMO. I also greatly enjoyed a game called Enemy Territory. If Odyssey emulated any of these games, I'd be sucked right in, but it doesn't come close.

Never played Enemy Territory and don't know what MAG is. Both would classify as FPS from your description.

 

[Neilski]

The GTX 970 is a huge problem with EDO, it's sufficient for running Horizons acceptably, but as you say certainly not EDO.

Yup, I would call it barely usable. However my PC is well above the recommended system requirements for the base ED (!!), and is between minimum and recommended requirements for EDO. Given that base ED in Live is now 4.0, this is a scandalous misrepresentation of the true requirements and I'm sure is leading to regular refunds.

There's two major problems with the Kickstarter model:
1) You're asking people to pay up front for highly uncertain returns. On the whole, if someone's going to be doing that I'd rather it be the one with the 8-figure bank balance (Frontier) rather than me.
2) The amount of money raised is - a few bizarre outliers aside - mostly irrelevant on the scales ED now operates. Frontier raised a bit over £1M from the original Elite Kickstarter, which was considered almost unachievable for the time ("you're asking for how much?!") and even with inflation is I think still in the top 50 Kickstarters ever.

Based on their recent accounts, £1M would fund Elite Dangerous - operations and current "not as fast as we'd like" development pace combined - for about 3 months.
The highest ever computer game Kickstarter was still under £5M in today's money, or less than a third of the cost of developing Odyssey.

On the other hand, the existing Elite player base brings in about £6M a year - new account purchases and ARX - which is down on previous levels, but still essentially the same income rate as the original Kickstarter was. Frontier's current approach of trying to add more free content in the hope of improving player numbers isn't ideal for pace but is probably the only option that might get it back up to "could have a go at another Odyssey-sized project" eventually.


It can still run out of money so that the ongoing income doesn't even support operations - though I think it would require player activity to drop to well under half of the previously-seen "floor" before that happened, which there's been no sign of - but, yes, CQC is the only bit which can (and did) die through lack of concurrent players.

Thanks. That's both sobering and reassuring, in parts. Clearly I'm dreaming about a kickstarter-type approach ever being useful for ED again. I will infer from the numbers that the FD team have fundamentally lost the capability of delivering "a lot" from a small and dedicated team. Maybe this is because the team has changed and is no longer the bunch of enthusiasts that I believe it was at the start, or maybe the management structure is part of the problem.
For sure though, their current spend rate on the game doesn't seem commensurate with their output. Feels like they've lost their way a bit.
If they were to refocus their efforts maybe things could change, but I guess that must have occurred to them too.
Ultimately though, the numbers don't seem to give the management a compelling reason to withdraw support from the game - and this is of course great - but that then leaves me bewildered about how they can't seem to fix the simple QOL bugs that plague us. Maybe it's just that the codebase has become too unwieldy for the team to be on top of it.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

EDO was a huge step for FDEV, introducing walking, new types of atmospheric planets, station interiors and ground combat, that's almost an entire new game for them and I am not surprised it took a long time and there were a lot of problems and I still think they are in recovery mode from that effort, but I also think that are actually working on new stuff for the game in the background, I'll hang around for a few more thousand hours myself at least. Have fun all!

Let's not forget that the game engine has been, most probably, largely rewritten to accommodate the on-foot and the reworked graphics. And that is a huge undertaking since graphics programming is very complex.

 

[varonica]

Yup, I would call it barely usable. However my PC is well above the recommended system requirements for the base ED (!!), and is between minimum and recommended requirements for EDO. Given that base ED in Live is now 4.0, this is a scandalous misrepresentation of the true requirements and I'm sure is leading to regular refunds.

Yeah I wouldn't give those specs to much credit, shaders and planetary tech has been changed several times and lots more is now happening in the game that those specs are years out of date, I mean we didn't even have vulcanism when they were valid. I played on a laptop with a 970m in original Horizons for a few years and at the time it worked fine, but the addition of more features and changes in the lighting and shaders make those specs....well let's say suspect at the very best. I think FDEV need to take a really hard look at those specs and adjust them, but of course that might push away some potential customers.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Welcome back, which will happen first elite dangerous dying or SC coming out of alpha?

Scam Citizen, by Chris Robber, from Clown Imperium Games, will NEVER leave Alpha stage.

There is too much money to be made scalping deluded gullible people for that to happen.

Besides, technically, they have no skill to solve the miriad problems caused by using a FPS engine for a solar system scale game.

They have a great number of wonderfully skilled and imaginative artists and are great at marketing and advertising, with those beautiful adverts, but not much else...

 

[zimms]

Scam Citizen, by Chris Robber, from Clown Imperium Games, [...]

Oof, show me on this chart where he hurt your wallet.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I will infer from the numbers that the FD team have fundamentally lost the capability of delivering "a lot" from a small and dedicated team.

Ah. There's probably a few more numbers before you make that inference: the Kickstarter raised ~£1.3 million, but ED 1.0 cost about £6 million to develop total. Even pre-release the team was quite a bit larger.

For sure though, their current spend rate on the game doesn't seem commensurate with their output. Feels like they've lost their way a bit.

Spend rate on Elite Dangerous in 2022 (latest figures) was £4M/year
Spend rate in the run-up to Odyssey was £9M/year at its height

There's some operating costs to take out of both of those (which are tough to infer directly), and the numbers aren't inflation adjusted so £6 million now only gets about 3/4 as much as £6 million in 2013, but essentially there seem to be two "paces" for ED development:
- fast (pre-release, Horizons, Odyssey): costs £9M/year+ at current prices including operating costs
- slower (Beyond, 2022 Odyssey Updates): costs £4-6M/year on the same basis

When the game is only bringing in £6M/year then yes, they have very definitely lost the financial capability to move faster ...unless, of course, they were to go for the Odyssey approach, invest some of their stockpile of cash in up-front development, to improve the game to the point where it brings in income at a higher rate in future (during Odyssey development, ED's profit was basically zero).

In that respect their choices are "keep a slow development rate, probably bring in a consistent £2M/year profit for the foreseeable future" or "set a fast development rate, taking at least £3M/year loss in the short term, to try to double long-term ED player numbers [1] and so generate a higher profit overall" (plus some intermediate options for mid-paced development and a lower player increase target).

Whatever it was, that "fast" plan would have to be ridiculously successful to avoid being "throw money down a hole" - especially since Odyssey may have sobered up their projections a bit - so I think we're stuck with "slow" for now.

[1] (or double long-term income from the existing players, or some combination)

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Oof, show me on this chart where he hurt your wallet.

LOL

There isn't one and he never did.

I NEVER support crowdfunding games, I NEVER preorder games and only buy them at discount after all DLCs are included and discounted too.

Back in 2012, I was more interested in SC (specially Squadron 42) than Elite. It was much more my kind of game. Or so I thought, always preferring single player games with a good story and gameplay.

But I started to get suspicious at all the vague promises, stupid suggestions included in the patches, the total lack of knowledge of how technical areas (such as how RL physics works) and programming works nowadays, and the huge number of sycophants taking control of leadership positions in the project.

Than I saw the huge salaries and the rich holidays that the used car salesman and his gold digger wife were earning.

That confirmed to me the Ponzi scheme that was that "project"...

 

[Pville_Piper]

With so many good space games out there, why does Star Citizen get ALL the attention?

Have you ever tried it? Nowadays there is quite a bit to do. It really has some very nice design and gameplay. Beyond the glitches and bugs, the two things I hate about star citizen is the changing of the game. For instance, I really liked the flight model and combat around the 3.11 time frame, then they completely changed it, made it so that kinetic weapons run out of ammunition with no reload in space. You get used to something and then it's something else, and what's worse is theat you know it will change again... And again... Ect...

The other thing I hate is the addition of medical gameplay, in a game that will (not can) kill you for riding the train, or the elevator... or walking in a cave...

The game really demands you play with others and the resets are a real pain. But beyond that, for me, it is like having a second life/career, very detailed and so much so that I just can't keep up with it. That and the key binds... There are so many and it's so detailed... You think Elite Dangerous is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet!

 

[Old Duck]

Have you ever tried it?

I tried to try it, but the installer broke on me, LOL.

Not the best first impression...

 

[Pville_Piper]

I tried to try it, but the installer broke on me, LOL.

Not the best first impression...

Yeah, I hear that.

 

[avow555]

What's the current drama in SC?

The punters have figured out it's never going to be released!













Nah they haven't, lol.
Keep paying Chris your money...

 

[Ian Phillips]

Please keep the discussion in here to Elite Dangerous.

Star Citizen has it's own thread where it can be discussed: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/star-citizen-discussion-thread-v12.548510/

 

[Old Duck]

It's probably also determined by the size of the studio and it's expenses, how many copies of games and DLCs gets sold, and how many other IPs the studio has that needs nurturing and development. Still my point was look at what they've accomplished with far less money that SC has brought in, I wonder what they would have accomplished with the funding that SC has received.

That's a valid point, I agree, but on the flip-side, what has SC accomplished with the funding SC has received?

There's the mythical man-month and then there's the mythical SC funding. Though I do agree that Frontier would have likely kept a team of 100+ devs working on Elite if Odyssey hit it out of the park sales-wise, rather than shuffle those team members to other projects like F1. But even with those 100+ developers and Frontier's focus, Odyssey did not hit it out of the park, so I strongly believe it's just as much about WHO you hire (wink) as is it about how many you hire. It reminds me of the stereotypical highway maintenance crews here in America - one guy digs while five guys stand around and watch. Or a kinder example, where the other day I saw two guys struggling to load a heavy artifact onto the back of their pickup truck - I wanted to help, but there was no room for me to squeeze in to lend a hand.

 

[Leadfoot]

In that respect their choices are "keep a slow development rate, probably bring in a consistent £2M/year profit for the foreseeable future" or "set a fast development rate, taking at least £3M/year loss in the short term, to try to double long-term ED player numbers [1] and so generate a higher profit overall" (plus some intermediate options for mid-paced development and a lower player increase target).

So like traveling from star to star, you would want the efficient route rather than the one that gobbles up fuel really fast. Essentially, that seems to be exactly what they're doing at a snail's pace.

Whatever it was, that "fast" plan would have to be ridiculously successful to avoid being "throw money down a hole" - especially since Odyssey may have sobered up their projections a bit - so I think we're stuck with "slow" for now.

And as many have suggested before, there are a number of things that some players like myself would actually pay money for in the form of DLCs, such as ship interiors for instance. Not everybody wants them but some of us want a place to sit back put her feet up on the desk and take it easy for a bit. It obviously wouldn't have to be the entire ship; just a personal cabin would be fine.

Maybe a cat, or some small fuzzy creature from alpha centauri.

Looking at some of the views of their games with animals, such as planet zoo and Jurassic world, they know how to make things that move. Even if they just stick with the . 1 atmosphere type planets, they could very easily offer a DLC that adds small insect type creatures crawling around eating the plants. Imagine what they would pay for the DNA samples of those things. And imagine the people who would pay for the DLC to add that to the game.

There's ways to get money without using a Kickstarter. They just have to want to do it.

 

[Old Duck]

Overwatch, from what I gather, is a MOBA (Massive Online Battle Arena) FPS. But I never played the game, so the details of what category it belongs to, elude me.

Both of those would classify as FPSs, but Elite Dangerous is, IMHO, due to its "philosophy", for better and for worse, a quite unique endeavour that has little comparison possible among existing games.

Never played Enemy Territory and don't know what MAG is. Both would classify as FPS from your description.

Let's simplify this - I don't like the [insert academically correct acronym] gameplay that Odyssey offers, and I'd much rather play one of other aforementioned games instead. Nor am I a fan of Odyssey's new lighting system, UI, planet tech (though it does have its moments), exploration mechanisms, and its contribution to the destruction of planet earth through global warming (ie - its terrible performance). Hence I really have no reason to buy it, especially when I have other games in every category that scratch the same itches, of which Mass Effect is one (well, two), however you wish to identify it.

And for clarity, it's not about what Odyssey does (I was excited as everyone else when I saw the first trailer), but rather how it does it.

 

[Old Duck]

Which ultimately proves that most people have no idea what they are talking about when they claim Odyssey to be "tacked on FPS" . Hashtag #NotAnFPS .

Sorry for the sting @Old Duck , had to be done .

You're right, it's a Psychological Horror

 

[marx]

As for the RIP/doom stuff, I know people have been saying it for ages and been wrong. I wasn't around in 2018 but I've not personally felt like the game was doomed until the last 12 months or so, and it's the attitude from FD that makes me feel it now. Time will tell and I fervently hope that I'm wrong.

2018 was fine (well, aside from numerous delays, and the final hyped-up update of Beyond Chapter Four falling far short of expectations), but the entirety of 2019 saw only two minor updates, and an announcement from Frontier in October that there'll be no new content added until 2020 Q2. Mind you, the only thing left on the "roadmap" then were fleet carriers, which had been delayed repeatedly by this point. Oh, and an announced icy planet rework was also delayed indefinitely. And well, when FD announced that fleet carriers will cost five billion credits, that cemented in many people that the only upcoming new content won't be for them.

So, if anything, doom threads could have been continuous since then. However, doom threads have been a regular occurrence ever since the Kickstarter campaign ended, so... yeah.

Yup, I would call it barely usable. However my PC is well above the recommended system requirements for the base ED (!!), and is between minimum and recommended requirements for EDO.

Don't forget that Odyssey's minimum requirements listed are for 720p resolution at Low graphics settings, while recommended is for 1080p resolution at High settings. Even then, I don't know what FPS they'd be targeting, 30 or 60.
Since your listed hardware is just barely above the minimum (other than the RAM, which unfortunately matters the least here), if you're looking at 1080p resolution (I assume you are), then barely usable sounds about right.