Lower your Expectations for ED

Robert Maynard

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Add to this that introducing realistic scales complicates things a lot more
Yes - though more for gameplay than for the engine. Space is a terrible gameplay environment for combat - no cover and extreme visual ranges [1], tiny advantages in speed or agility are very hard to beat, both engaging in and fleeing combat end up rather artificial - and exploration is also pretty tricky when the most common discovery is "another empty cubic exametre" and you spend most of your time flying in a straight line to the next empty one. Things like trade and logistics can work pretty well but don't necessarily benefit from the setting compared with planet-based equivalents. It doesn't even need to be a very realistic scale - something like Oolite where most of the action takes place in a corridor a few hundred kilometres long and the planets are scaled down to 1% "real" size has to deal with this quite a bit, though doesn't have quite as much "compartmentalisation" as ED or the other truly realistic-scale games do.

Obviously that can be avoided somewhat by having most of the action take place around stations, installations, megaships, implausible dense asteroid clusters, etc. so that there's a reason to stick close to a particular location, cover to hide behind, things to find, plausible excuses for any other ships to be in the same location, and so on ... and use some sort of fast-travel mechanism to minimise the time spent elsewhere. But there's only so much of that the design stage can take before someone speaks up in the planning meeting to say "why don't we set this on a planet?" and they've got a pretty good point.

[1] Modern high-resolution displays make this a lot worse. Back in the original Elite, things didn't have to get that far away at 320x200 resolution before they could plausibly disappear from view. When you've got 100x as many pixels on a modern display, you can see things ten times further out without issue. So you either end up with the Elite situation where your "sensors" are unable to detect skyscraper-sized objects a few kilometres away, or you have sensors that can at the very least track the same 80-km-away ship that you can see, and that introduces a whole bunch of other issues for considering what speeds and weapon ranges to use.
 
Well, yes. There are some problems with multiplayer and AI. It's difficult already to design AI that's advanced enough at decision-making to be an entertaining(!) match for players in a single player game, and add to that that multiplayer games could even have a wider range (in terms of skill) of players playing them. As you yourself noted, you are judging the AI against yourself: one that offers an entertaining challenge to one person could easily turn three others away. So it's a difficult act to balance.
Anyway, I believe most multiplayer games these days don't feature advanced bots because they don't see a need to: the people who would challenge themselves against those would be just as likely to go fight against other players. So why spend time on making good AI if the majority of people wouldn't enjoy playing against those?

I think ED needs advanced bots at least as much as it needs anything. NPCs are critical filler, due to the scale of the setting, the special role reserved for CMDRs, and the variety of mechanisms in place for players to have their characters avoid each other. Space, and settlements, would seem entirely dead without NPCs. The problem is that the NPCs we have aren't convincing, at anything.

Balance is an issue, but it's a minor one, and something that can be tuned. The near zero persistence, utter lack of a demographic simulation, and nine years of barely-even-placeholder behaviors in everything NPCs do and do not do, is a far more pervasive issue.

The majority of NPCs aren't, or shouldn't be, combat foes. The same overarching issues that make them borderline useless in combat are reflected everywhere else.

When it does come to combat, having to seek out other players to find a challenge is a problem. I have a fair bit of PvP experience in this game, but that's not because I'm going out of my way looking for PvP in and of itself, it's just a side effect of the NPCs not being credible foes. The game essentially forces me to prioritize CMDR threats above all others even when it would make the situation look ridiculous to an outside observer. Hell, back during development I didn't even want the sensor display to distinguish between CMDRs and NPCs and I consider it a reflection on the poor quality of NPCs that I can easily tell CMDRs and NPCs apart from their behavior.

Other, more tightly focused games with more spatially condensed settings (or less instancing), have gotten by without much in the way of meaningful NPC presence. In Jumpgate or Shadowbane, player characters filled all roles of import. Because of this the systems were significantly self-balancing (well, less so in Shadowbane). Anything that needed to get done, someone had to do, which set up the same sort of complex incentives, and mutual self-interest, real societies run on. However, a galaxy spanning, peer-to-peer, direct-player-interaction-optional title, needs quality NPCs to have any hope of verisimilitude.
 
Its only a grind if you have to do it and you don't.
"Grind" is an interesting word. It means different things to different people.
  • To a WoW player, grinding takes many forms: gear grinding (needing better gear to be allowed into - and be competitive in - raids and PvP), achievement grinding (visiting everywhere in order to unlock exploration achievements), and mount grinding (running the same instance or killing the same mob over and over and over until the mount they want finally drops).
  • To an ED player, grinding is generally associated with engineering or ranks: relogging over and over and over in order to efficiently collect enough high end mats so they can trade down for all the stuff they need to improve their ships, or running mountains of data in order to unlock access to systems and ships.
While you can get everything you need by just playing ED for months and years, it often doesn't make sense to do that, because the gameplay is the grind, which in turn allows us to do things more efficiently.

Very few people want to be a scrub forever, and while some people will say it's best to just chill and not rush, you can't limit people's desire to get ahead... even though they'll complain about it endlessly while doing it.
 
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What I don’t have is much to choose from when I look for a Space Sim MMO. There’s Elite Dangerous, two failed attempts making a PvP one, one that toes the line between incompetence and a scam, and two outright NFT scams. Those are some patheticly paltry pickings for a genre of MMO that I would’ve thought would be been pretty popular. Why isn’t there a Star Wars version, for example? Or one set in the Expanse? How About Traveler Online? One set in the Battletech universe?What I don’t have is much to choose from when I look for a Space Sim MMO. There’s Elite Dangerous, two failed attempts making a PvP one, one that toes the line between incompetence and a scam, and two outright NFT scams. Those are some patheticly paltry pickings for a genre of MMO that I would’ve thought would be been pretty popular. Why isn’t there a Star Wars version, for example? Or one set in the Expanse? How About Traveler Online? One set in the Battletech universe?
There's Star Trek Online. I never gave it much attention because it feels old and dated to me, graphics-wise, and you know what a graphics snob I am ;)

I also doubt it has 6DoF flight, but neither did original Star Trek until the ending of Wrath of Khan. I assume that sitting in the pilot's seat is important to you (me too), otherwise you would have added Eve Online to your list.

I will admit that I'm a bit surprised that an MMO is so important to you, because I never visioned you as a "team player" based on how you play SE and EGS. I'm not judging, I'm learning.
 
There's Star Trek Online. I never gave it much attention because it feels old and dated to me, graphics-wise, and you know what a graphics snob I am ;)

I've always gotten the impression that was primarily a combat game, and I'm not much of a combat player, preferring civilian roles. I really doubt I can play a poor trader travelling between star systems, especially in Federation space.

I also doubt it has 6DoF flight, but neither did original Star Trek until the ending of Wrath of Khan. I assume that sitting in the pilot's seat is important to you (me too), otherwise you would have added Eve Online to your list.

Very True. Though Eve Online is a hard-core PvP game... especially the economic side. My experiences with hard-core PvP MMOs have not been kind over the years.

I will admit that I'm a bit surprised that an MMO is so important to you, because I never visioned you as a "team player" based on how you play SE and EGS. I'm not judging, I'm learning.

I may not be much of a team player, I'm very much the proverbial lone-wolf, but that doesn't mean I don't value other people sharing my game space... as long as most of them don't act like male donkeys. If I had enough predictable spare time to be a "team player" in an MMO these days, I'd be using that time with friends and family, not playing games online. When I was young, though? I did the whole guild thing, planning raids, and so on. Even in ED, I coordinated with ALD's player in Power Play before I decided that disrupting the Federation's BGS efforts was much more fun, and efficient use of my limited time, than hauling merits. I've been involved with several BGS campaigns, and quite a few other player-led events.

Not to mention the whole Buckyball thing. ;)

A good player community can bring a lot of life to game in a way NPCs and single-player scripted stories can't, especially in a PvPvE environment. Of course, a bad player community can strangle all life from a game very easily. So much of the stuff I treasure from ED is not the gameplay or Frontier led "events," but the player-created events.
 
@Darkfyre99 Well for what it's worth, Elite being an MMO is important to me too, which is why I quit right after the Great Schism. ED Legacy, which is "my" Elite, lost a huge percentage of its player base along with MMO things like CGs, events, evolving narrative, etc. ED as a single-player game just doesn't do much for me anymore. Yeah, there's still a BGS, but I am more of a team player "let's wing up together" sorta guy.

Speaking of, a person can't even compare Elite Legacy to Elite Live anymore, let along another space game like [insert name of space game that won't trigger folk].

Doom threads actively impair Elite capabilities to attract new players, just as promoting Legacy does and discourage existing players.

One has to be 100% an Odyssey fan or leave the forum, those are the only two choices according to self-appointed guardians of the forum. (This isn't directed at you, Darkfyre, just a general observation in light of recent accusations).

Anyway, when I thought actual CGs were coming back to Legacy, I seriously started entertaining the idea of reinstalling it, until I learned those CGs are borked. ED Legacy is still the best VR game in my library, but without the MMO piece, it's just not quite enough.

TL;DR - we actually agree! I think...
 
That's actually pretty good. It's pithy, but it covers all the bases. Me likey.
That’s very kind, thank you.

For what it’s worth, if we strip out a bit of the generality and add in a little bit about the nature of that vision of the future then we get:

“ED is a game about being an independent pilot starting out with some basic equipment and a small amount of money and making your way in a cold, uncaring, hostile galaxy.

And that’s something that Arf has agreed with, several times IIRC, and is also very similar to how the sound design guy described ED on the livestream the other week.

So not an official confirmation of it being an accurate description, but certainly enough to say that’s how some in FD see the game, and what they design their aspects around.

Even without it being fully official description it’s a useful way to frame discussions.
 
The gaming world isn't exactly knocking down the gates to scan a thousand patches of fungus. ED needs less filler, more content.
Your argument needs less filler, more content. 😂
Saying they only added plants (insert thargoid pun), is dishonest bordering on disrespectful towards the people that have worked hard on the game.
Wanting to see more content in the game is something most people want, even the devs themselves. (i think ;) )
Not finding what is in the game super exciting is a matter of taste.
Denigrating hard work isn't.

“The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem” ― Captain Jack Sparrow
 
If you enjoy something - if it's the focus of your hobby, or your hobby itself - you can't help but be invested in it to some degree. Telling people that negative opinions are invalid because they should just walk away isn't my cup of tea. I prefer discussion and debate.
For many player such as myself the hobby cost me less than $100.

If you invest a huge portion of your life into a hobby that inexpensive, and then develop some dissillusionment because the creator of your "hobby" didn't update it to your personal liking.... well that's your problem. Reality check: the game isn't being designed for Shabine. If the direction of the hobby causes that much distress... move on.
 
For many player such as myself the hobby cost me less than $100.
It's interesting that the only thing you consider is money. Telling. Anyway, I'm talking about what we invest in terms of time and appreciation for specific titles.

If you invest a huge portion of your life into a hobby that inexpensive, and then develop some dissillusionment because the creator of your "hobby" didn't update it to your personal liking.... well that's your problem.
You clearly don't understand what I'm talking about. You keep measuring everything in dollars. I'm talking about the value of our experiences in environments that we dedicate days of our lives to. Disillusionment is natural for some people if things never shape up the way the devs lead them to believe that they can and will. More to be understood than scorned.

Reality check: the game isn't being designed for Shabine.
Reality check: I wasn't talking about me, and you're clearly not capable of having a normal conversation. Stow your venom. I'm just explaining why people do become bitter over time. Or am I not allowed to do that?
 
Reality check: I wasn't talking about me, and you're clearly not capable of having a normal conversation. Cool your vitriol. I'm just explaining why people do become bitter over time. Or am I not allowed to do that?
You are describing a specific product made as a video game as a hobby. This game is not being designed for the individual. It is being designed for a market. If you can't understand that.... then there is no basis for conversation.

If you want a hobby you have control over, then choose more wisely. Put your money and time into something you can actually have control over. Getting unduly upset because a game developer isn't reading your personal mind and implementing stuff to your specific desires is ridiculous.

Are there aspects of ED I don't like? Absolutely. Are there stupid bugs? Yes. I am typing this as I am rebooting the game because of a bug that requires a reset. Ae there aspects that I really like? Yes. Thats why I play the game. Would I be disappointed if the game changed so that IMO 75% of the content really sucked? Yes. Thats why I stopped playing for 8 months after Odessey was released... I found it unplayable. I moved on and did other things. My life didn't come to a grinding halt. And I didn't make daily whiny posts on the forum.
 
As the OP says, lower your expectations for an activity that cost you less than $100 dollars. You are speaking like Frontier owes you something. They made a video game that you bought. That's it. If a player turns a video game into a special focus for their life.... well... I got nothing else to say.
 
This is the kind of grind I'm talking about. Rather than have content they have grind, and for some reason, some of you will treat it like content and then not understand what people mean when they say there's a lack of content.
My eyes rolled so hard, I thought my head had turned into a slot machine when they trotted out the "Oh no! We're not counting previous progress because we think these ranks are content!" line.

Mmm. Yes. Ban the dissenters. Only positive posts about how awesome everything in ED is and how it has no problems at all. No criticism of its broken and abandoned features, or Frontier's insistence on putting more effort into ARX cosmetics than they do into fixing simple bugs.
Seems to work for Star Citizen. 😄
 
You are describing a specific product made as a video game as a hobby. This game is not being designed for the individual. It is being designed for a market.
So are model planes. So is Warhammer. So is literature. So is Dungeons & Dragons.

What's your point? That none of these are hobbies?

If you want a hobby you have control over, then choose more wisely. Put your money and time into something you can actually have control over. Getting unduly upset because a game developer isn't reading your personal mind and implementing stuff to your specific desires is ridiculous.
Nobody is asking for them to read minds. However, there is a lot of criticism to be leveled at them for not being as open to feedback and as quick to make broadly popular proposed changes than some of their competitors. Look at what happened to NMS after the people who developed it began listening to their players. That would never happen with Frontier, and that's a shame. The fact that they underdeliver and leave features broken is plenty of reason to lower expectations.

My life didn't come to a grinding halt. And I didn't make daily whiny posts on the forum.
I don't think anybody's life "came to grinding halt". And I'm not just talking about the chronic complainers exclusively. I'm talking about lowering expectations in general given that Frontier has been far more of a disappointment as a developer and publisher than many of their contemporaries.

As the OP says, lower your expectations for an activity that cost you less than $100 dollars. You are speaking like Frontier owes you something.
Again, you seem to have no value for the time you put into the game, and no, I'm not speaking like Frontier owes me something. I'm talking about what's good for the game and good for the community who enjoys it but hopes for better.

They made a video game that you bought. That's it.
So your expectations are in the toilet right from the start. Makes sense, and that's actually a good thing in this case.

well... I got nothing else to say.
Thank god for that.
 
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So are model planes. So is Warhammer. So are watches and sneakers. So is Dungeons & Dragons.

What's your point? That none of these are hobbies?
Your comparison of hobbies is wack. And your expectations for a single video game is way overboard. And yes, you are speaking like Frontier owes you something.
 
Your comparison of hobbies is wack. And your expectations for a single video game is way overboard. And yes, you are speaking like Frontier owes you something.
You realize that people pour thousands of hours into this game, right? How is comparing it to D&D "wack", apart from the fact that your tank has run dry? I'm not talking about me, Greasy. I'm saying that I understand why people who have invested a lot of their time into this game might have grievances given how it has been managed by its developer over the past ten years. You don't seem to be capable of understanding this, and you seem to have taken all of this very personally.
 
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