Lower your Expectations for ED

I’m trying to cast my mind back to see if ED has been in such relatively deep hibernation before. I think it has. Clearly Frontier have other fish to fry, at least publicly, at the moment.
Arguably all the time between the initial Horizons release and initial Odyssey release. The general pace of development during the Horizons and Beyond years was two major feature releases a year, usually with intermediate tuning releases. Then after the end of the original Beyond plan, but before Odyssey, even slower - just one major feature release (Fleet Carriers) in that entire 2.5 year window, plus three more tuning releases between Beyond 3.3 and Fleet Carriers, and no Galnet/CGs/events for much of that time either.

The post-Odyssey pace of an update every month (or even every two months) has been the anomalous bit.

Hmm, interestingly, the current pace if you rename U14 as "Aftermath 5.0" is so far near-identical to Horizons.
- initial release at the end of one calendar year
- X.1 release (Engineers 2.1 / U15) coming in May after being delayed a bit from the original plans
- X.2 release (Guardians 2.2 / U16) coming much later in the year (2.2 was late October, U16 will probably be similar)

In terms of amount of content U14 I think matches up fairly well with the smaller Horizons bits - 2.3 or (most obviously) 2.4 - or mid-sized Beyond bits like 3.0 ... it just remains to be seen if U15 is similar in size.
 
You know about all that stuff you can do in Elite Dangerous? It isn't worth doing
Dont do it then, some of us however do enjoy it.
The grind requirements are so ridiculous, the reward from "regular" gameplay is so measly
Completely disagree the grind is minimal and once you are stocked with engineering materials you could build and completely engineer 3 or 4 ships and only take a night to restock the materials again.
Rewards arnt lottery funded, credits are easy to come by, Fdev did something that other MMOs/Games failed at.
If everything was credit related with no material grind, with a player auction system everything would be devalued and just encourage bots and credit selling exploits.
As it is you have to go out and get this stuff yourself.

Honestly its been said before that if folks could roll out into the universe in a fully engineered Cutter within two hours they would still find a way to complain.

O7
 
Hi All :)
(Abbreviated)...

ED/O is what it is, nothing more or less, but certainly a great example of "Curate's egg"

I had to do a search for "Curate's Egg" to see what it meant! :D
Well, at least I've learnt something by reading through this topic! (which has been quite interesting) :LOL:

I'm out exploring at the moment, Systems way up above the Galaxy. Late last night I dropped into a System that had an ELW and a TWW, undiscovered, and it seems there's plenty more surprises in store for me around this area. :)
Taken a few 'Artistic' screenshots and recording various unexplored Systems also by taking Screen shots (Of System Graphical Maps).
Doing some Mining for mainly the more lucrative metals and minerals (I've discovered some really good Systems for this btw)... fun gameplay for me. (edit) and also 'bio' hunting.
No Thargoids up here, which suits me fine ;), I've got no ambitions or interest to cross swords with them, I would have preferred a more peaceful solution, which I think personally would have offered more interesting content?
Anyway, the 'sky' is very dark of course (very few nearby stars) which does give me the feeling of being very, very far away from the 'bustle' of the 'bubble', and in the vast expanse of space.
Yes, there are good points in this game and bad. I'm playing some of the good points for now, but I'm well aware of the bad points even 'out here' they can be quite obvious.

Okay, Carry on discussing Commanders! o7
Jack :)
 
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The most glaring example of this is ED's crime and punishment system. We all know it's trash. They know it's trash. Has it ever been addressed?
C&P is what it is, I spend most of my game time with notoriety & bounties, all part of my gameplay.
I've never understood why it is structured how it is, but then, I could say pretty much the same about actual British law, it is full of inconsistencies and "why" questioning.
C&P doesn't affect how I play worth talking about, but from what I read here, others have different opinions.
I had to do a search for "Curate's Egg" to see what it meant! :D
Well, at least I've learnt something by reading through this topic! (which has been quite interesting) :LOL:
It isn't a bad thread at all, plenty of different exchanges of ideas and opinions. Certainly not as boring as the Hotel California ones!
 
@Darkfyre99 Well for what it's worth, Elite being an MMO is important to me too, which is why I quit right after the Great Schism. ED Legacy, which is "my" Elite, lost a huge percentage of its player base along with MMO things like CGs, events, evolving narrative, etc. ED as a single-player game just doesn't do much for me anymore. Yeah, there's still a BGS, but I am more of a team player "let's wing up together" sorta guy.

And I assume the 4.0 client performs poorly on your PC, even in space? I know you were contemplating doing a free fly in Star Citizen not that long ago, and any PC that can play SC should easily handle ED 4.0. It’s certain aspects of the on-foot part of Odyssey that can be problematic.
 
The most glaring example of this is ED's crime and punishment system. We all know it's trash. They know it's trash. Has it ever been addressed?
I think it works exactly like it was intended by devs … could be a main reason why was not changed (except some minor things). Rest are just players opinions, nothing more and nothing less. Do C&P affect my gameplay? … Yes, it does. Makes it playing my way impossible? No … for me it’s therefore not a problem. My personal opinion is that there are other more important things/features which I would like to be improved in ED.
 
Your argument needs less filler, more content. 😂
Saying they only added plants (insert thargoid pun), is dishonest bordering on disrespectful towards the people that have worked hard on the game.
Wanting to see more content in the game is something most people want, even the devs themselves. (i think ;) )
Not finding what is in the game super exciting is a matter of taste.
Denigrating hard work isn't.

“The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem” ― Captain Jack Sparrow

What amuses me is how many people confuse content with depth. Depth isn’t about how many assets there are in the game. Depth is about how many valid choices there are in the game. And grind is what happens when there is a lack of valid choices.

There are many ways to achieve any particular personal goal in this game. The best ways require a player’s full attention, and a modicum of skill. Inevitably, someone comes across a low-attention, low-skill method, but extremely time consuming and dull way to achieve the same goal. It gets its own “one weird trick” video on YouTube, and more people use it. They start complaining about how slow and “grindy” doing it this way is, and in response Frontier increases it’s effectiveness to be the best.

And thus, a little more depth is filled in, and what used to be a self inflicted “grind” becomes a genuine one.

This game has never been a “mile wide an an inch deep.” Its just its more of a river than an ocean. Unfortunately, many players seem to be content to drift downstream on the surface on a raft, and never plumb the depths below. Sadly, those same players tend to throw all their crap overboard, which starts to accumulate on the riverbed. At which point Frontier, in all their “wisdom,” responds “Let us help you with that!” and starts throwing even more stuff overboard, rather than dredge the bottom to deepen the riverbed.
 
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[,,,]

Honestly its been said before that if folks could roll out into the universe in a fully engineered Cutter within two hours they would still find a way to complain.

O7
Indeed, this straw man has been brought up countless times by now.

I'll have a go as well.

If it would take 1000h to go from stock Sidewinder to stock Hauler, people would still say this is too fast and others want everything handed to them.
 
The most glaring example of this is ED's crime and punishment system. We all know it's trash. They know it's trash. Has it ever been addressed?

Out of morbid curiosity, in what way is it trash? It’s purpose is to address player on NPC crime in such a way that its challenging to be a criminal, while not being overly punitive. Those are both subjective evaluations, not objective ones. Personally, I think that once you understand how it works, C&P is pretty much a slap on the wrist, with is consistent with the Pilots Federation has evolved over the last 60 years in universe.
 
Indeed, this straw man has been brought up countless times by now.
Always a straw man when it doesn't meet with one's own agenda, commonplace throughout the forum.
Along with all of the other little denigrating gripes that don't quite cross the line to be reportable.

Good for a chuckle though!
 
Always a straw man when it doesn't meet with one's own agenda, commonplace throughout the forum.
Along with all of the other little denigrating gripes that don't quite cross the line to be reportable.

Good for a chuckle though!
You're right, it's not a straw man at all. I'm sure you can show me hundreds of posts where people demanded to start the game in fully decked out Cutter.
 
I don't think they want to copy ED, I certainly wouldn't copy the inch deep ocean galaxy myself. I'd put content in it, like X4, NMS, Starfield, etc.. The annoying thing about ED is they've built all the tech for this huge galaxy, but neglected to put anything in it other than skinnerbox grind. Feels like the most wasted potential of any game in the history of gaming, and is why people can't stop talking about it.


Frontier can improve. Ideally before they lose another 60% of their company. It's worth looking at what other developers can do with fauna to realize that it doesn't have to be boring. It's not a problem with the idea, it's a problem with the developer.
X4 and Starfield are single player and as far as I can tell NMS is also mostly single player. The inch deep thing seems unfortunately intrinsic to MMOs and is frequently seen in criticism of multiplayer games. This seems to be the price we pay to have others share our galaxy.
 
X4 and Starfield are single player and as far as I can tell NMS is also mostly single player.
Actually, NMS is very similar to ED in the multiplayer perspective. If you are just flying around "out there", the chances of encountering another player are slim, at least until you unlock the anomaly. However, you are constantly updating the "BGS" when you discover planets and scan new life, rocks, etc. Also, anything you do to change a planet, like build a base, will be available to all players. Supposedly there is even a player-made "Bubble" of planets in NMS! I've always wanted to visit that, but I got distracted by other space games, LOL.

But like Elite, you can meet up with people and have lots of people in an instance. Just watch some of Drew Wagar's videos on NMS, and you'll see all his fans (including myself) moving in and setting up bases on his home planet, visiting his base, waving and emojiing like school girls at a Beatles concert, etc. And unlike Elite, this multiplayer experience is cross-platform, so I can (and have) play NMS with my wife who is on PS4 while I'm on PC!

One advantage NMS has over Elite is that you can play the game with no Internet connection. It will syncronize any changes you make to the universe with the main servers the next time you're able to connect.

Somewhere on Drew Wagar's planet is a little diner, aptly named "Duck's Diner". Feel free to visit anytime you want. It's a great place to get out of the acid rain!
 
Out of morbid curiosity, in what way is it trash?
In what way isn't the crime & punishment system trash? Like, what was it even designed to accomplish?

If it was for high risk, high reward gameplay, then it's a failure as there's no additional reward for taking the additional risk. If it was to stop players being NPC murderhobos, then it's a failure as players just choose anarchies for their genocides. If it was to stop players being PC murderhobos, then it's a failure as notoriety can be afked away.

The only people who meaningfully* interact with this system are new players as they don't understand it and don't know the ways to avoid it so end up harmed by it. It's a textbook noob trap. The implementation is also broken and unintuitive, like how new players attempt to pay off their parking ticket only to discover they've actually surrendered and were shipped to jail, that paying through IF dodges jail and all the factions are perfectly ok with you dodging jail so this is zero risk, the various things that require relogging to fix, etc..

* so excluding roleplayers, exploiters, and people gaming the BGS
 
If everything was credit related with no material grind, with a player auction system everything would be devalued and just encourage bots and credit selling exploits.
As it is you have to go out and get this stuff yourself.
I've always found Eve's system to be very intriguing, where IIRC everything is credit related, but materials are needed for everything you buy. The idea is that somebody has to go out and get this stuff, but it doesn't have to be you. This allow miners and traders to enjoy their craft while also feeling like they are truly contributing to the game world, while freeing up combat pilots to go out and combat things. Imagine the Top Gun movies if 90% of the movie was Tom Cruise hammering rocks to get iron so he could engineer his F-14 before flying it. Boring!

But don't tell me "Just go play Eve then" because there's a whole lot about Eve that does not interest me at all. I just think their economy and supply chain is fascinating and have always wished Elite had something akin to this.
 
If it was for high risk, high reward gameplay, then it's a failure as there's no additional reward for taking the additional risk. If it was to stop players being NPC murderhobos, then it's a failure as players just choose anarchies for their genocides. If it was to stop players being PC murderhobos, then it's a failure as notoriety can be afked away.
A frankly brilliant quick summary of why ED's crime and punishment system is trash.
 
I just think [Eve Online's] economy and supply chain is fascinating and have always wished Elite had something akin to this.
You know, a fully dynamic economy on Elite wouldn't work: Hardwar was an excellent experiment in this. It was an Elite-like game, just set on Titan instead of in space, set on a much smaller world (I'd estimate it'd equal about fifteen or so ED systems), with a complex economy driven by NPC actors. It also had support for persistent world multiplayer. Now, the base game had a semi-dynamic economy: most of everything needed to be produced, but there were price caps coded in, and a few things had magical supply too. Imagine if you couldn't just buy an infinite amount of Anacondas and other ships, but every single ship, or even missile, had to be assembled first, and would go out of stock.
Well, in Hardwar SP, even on the semi-dynamic economy, a fair number of things would quickly become unavailable without player intervention. The police themselves would go extinct surprisingly soon! (Because they couldn't replace the ships that they lost.) Then in multiplayer, just one player or two could completely wreck the economy of a server.

Now, some later beta patches actually introduced a fully dynamic economy to the game, where only the basic raw materials would have an infinite supply, no price caps on the rest, and so on. Even without players setting up their own factories (a feature that was added after launch), it was chaos: small imbalances would soon spiral out of control. Add to that hostile players in multiplayer, and yeah, it wasn't much fun.
Eve's economy works because it's purely player driven. Introduce NPC actors to help keep an economy going, and things will be bad even in SP, let alone MP - too many complex parts to balance. In your advertised game, X4 Foundations, back at launch, I remember that the economy would rather quickly stall too, and that's just single player. Looking at things now, they mostly fixed that much later than I stopped playing it, and looks like they did it mostly by magicing some things on the supply side too. Now, in ED, the game world of twenty thousand inhabited systems is too large for a purely player-driven economy like Eve's (not to mention the existence of solo mode) - so all we'd have would be the other options.

Well, would you like to play in a version of Elite where you can't progress beyond your starter ship and equipment, or couldn't even reload your ammo, because most places have run dry and the ones that do still have supply are locked down by large player factions for their own usage only? That doesn't sound like much fun to me. I'm sure there are players who that would appeal to, but I don't think the majority would find it fun.
 
Eve's economy works because it's purely player driven.
Absolutely, and it's worth noting that "market PvP" is also a big thing in EVE.

Players can manipulate markets; artificially depress or inflate the price of ships, equipment, and the resources needed to manufacture them by deploying massive amounts of capital and then reaping the benefits down the road. They can also corner markets for specific modules of certain tech levels by regulating the supply of available blueprint copies, jam up public production lines, blockade supply routes that lead to low sec and null sec within that low security space. Sprawling wars are waged daily over access to resources including moon goo and gas, and unless you're connected to the right people in the right regions, some resources simply aren't available to you unless you are willing to break even or take financial losses just to retain your status as a builder or market supplier.

Under these conditions, the playerbase of Elite Dangerous would probably have a complete collective mental breakdown.
 
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