Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[Viajero]

No V, I mean what I say.

CIG hasn't officially declared itself to be a launched title.

They have. Stated already in multiple occasions they have officially released SC in early access. Both via legal statements, in advertisements and even in game.

We come back to confusing released with complete.

CIG confirms their product is released but at the same time try to bamboozle the market to prevent the consequences of a release to be fully understood. The language you insist to use sadly only helps CIG to cement that lie.

 

[cigwatch]

They have. Stated already in multiple occasions they have officially released SC in early access. Both via legal statements, in advertisements and even in game.

It is an alphaaccesstestlease.

 

[Ed02349]

The people who play don't have much authority in that matter

You can't have fraud without a victim. If the people who aren't happy all got refunds and the ones still playing it don't consider it a scam, there's no victim.

 

[PiLhEaD]

It's even slightly topical at least once a week

And continually outperforming CIG.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

You can't have fraud without a victim. If the people who aren't happy all got refunds and the ones still playing it don't consider it a scam, there's no victim.

It doesn't matter whether someone is happy or not when it is to be determined whether a crime or injustice has been committed or inflicted. You may think that people with Stockholm Syndrome aren't to be considered victims of hostage situations, but that opinion luckily would be insubstantial before court, either.

 

[PiLhEaD]

...I wrote them off when they lost control of the scope, circa 2014. Perhaps even earlier....

I wrote it off when it was Chris Roberts at the helm, so, immediately. But then I knew his record.

I backed ED in no small part because David Braben was behind it, and I knew his record.

Roberts is a pie-faced dreamer, Braben is a passionate and experienced developer.

The biggest disappointment re SC is the zero impact of getting Erin involved. He at least has had a track record of delivery.

 

[metatheurgist]

See, I recognised Wing Commander was a crap game way back when. Never was a fan.

 

[VR Golgot]

It is an alphaaccesstestlease.

Advanced Access?

Delayed Gratification Simulator?

Alphabetti Spaghetti?

 

[ZeeWolf]

See, I recognised Wing Commander was a crap game way back when. Never was a fan.

...and people always point out that Amiga Power gave Frontier Elite 2 65% on the A500 - I liked that AP used the percentage system correctly. WC was a below average game on the Amiga, it scored below 50% also amusing is the Edge review of Freelancer which is quite hard to find online but memorably was summed up with "can't see what the fuss was all about".

 

[thistle]

I wrote it off when it was Chris Roberts at the helm, so, immediately. But then I knew his record.

I backed ED in no small part because David Braben was behind it, and I knew his record.

Roberts is a pie-faced dreamer, Braben is a passionate and experienced developer.

The biggest disappointment re SC is the zero impact of getting Erin involved. He at least has had a track record of delivery.

Or perhaps without him things would have been ... worse

 

[thistle]

See, I recognised Wing Commander was a crap game way back when. Never was a fan.

It was Barbarian with worse sprites and less gameplay.

 

[Ed02349]

It doesn't matter whether someone is happy or not when it is to be determined whether a crime or injustice has been committed or inflicted. You may think that people with Stockholm Syndrome aren't to be considered victims of hostage situations, but that opinion luckily would be insubstantial before court, either.

Whose going to file a complaint or lawsuit and take them to court? It's been over 10 years I'm tired of waiting.

How I wish victims of murder aren't considered victims because they didn't report the crime.

Edit: OK I guess I'm wrong
In UK law at least
"An important difference between this and the Theft Act is that the Fraud Act offences do not require there to have been a victim, as was the case with the Theft Act. "

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Whose going to file a complaint or lawsuit and take them to court? It's been over 10 years I'm tired of waiting.

How I wish victims of murder aren't considered victims because they didn't report the crime.

Who going to court is an entirely different point. As we say "where there is no claimant - there is no judge".

 

[Ed02349]

Who going to court is an entirely different point. As we say "where there is no claimant - there is no judge".

If calling it a fraud and not go to court then its meaningless. Like your hostage example, if a person takes a hostage and there's no repercussion, then what? All it end up with is random person calling CIG a scam and they're still running with their operation and it'll becomes normal.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

If calling it a fraud and not go to court then its meaningless. Like your hostage example, if a person takes a hostage and there's no repercussion, then what? All it end up with is random person calling CIG a scam and they're still running with their operation and it'll becomes normal.

I don't know the anglo-saxon legal system well. It is very different. I gather there is a distinction between "civil" (private parties) and "public" (state vs everything) , too.
You can sue privately or the state sues - it is a matter of public interest and if a case can be made. I guess not many people take to court with game services privately. And the public interest in the thing is rather low. Probably likely state attorneys have bigger priorities elsewhere. Like Bitcoin shenanigans e.g.

 

[Ed02349]

I don't know the anglo-saxon legal system well. It is very different. I gather there is a distinction between "civil" (private parties) and "public" (state vs everything) , too.
You can sue privately or the state sues - it is a matter of public interest and if a case can be made. I guess not many people take to court with game services privately. And the public interest in the thing is rather low. Probably likely state attorneys have bigger priorities elsewhere. Like Bitcoin shenanigans e.g.

Yeah, that's my understanding as well. So all this talk about release or not released is moot if no one will take CIG to court for fraud.
To me the only reason to call anything a scam or fraud is the legal repercussion. If there's no downside to doing what they do then they'll continue to do it and given time another company will find the right blend of legal loophole and hopeful audience and do the same thing. Given even more time everyone will be doing it.

 

[metatheurgist]

It was Barbarian with worse sprites and less gameplay.

Ha! I loved that on the C64. First fighting game with weapons. Eat your heart out Soul Calibur. And the decapitation move.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Yeah, that's my understanding as well. So all this talk about release or not released is moot if no one will take CIG to court for fraud.
To me the only reason to call anything a scam or fraud is the legal repercussion. If there's no downside to doing what they do then they'll continue to do it and given time another company will find the right blend of legal loophole and hopeful audience and do the same thing. Given even more time everyone will be doing it.

Taking to court is a financial risk. You need to have a case. Do you have a case when it's released today, alpha yesterday and beta tomorrow? Does your lawyer have experience with crowdfunding, early access, SaaS cases? Is it worth it? Do you want to be featured in the newspaper as the idiot who spent 5-digit sums and didn't dare for 10 years to claim their rights in court?
Most easy is probably public prosecution. Is there a crime? Is it worth making a case. Will it advance my career as state attorney? Am I willing to unravel a thicket of international companies for a couple dumb monkeys who couldn't keep their money together? Probably not. If the state is going to court it'll be tax fraud or something like subsidy embezzlement. But the UK has probably enough to do trying to get their supply lines in order and what to do with their own legal codes and standards right now.

 

[VR Golgot]

If calling it a fraud and not go to court then its meaningless. Like your hostage example, if a person takes a hostage and there's no repercussion, then what? All it end up with is random person calling CIG a scam and they're still running with their operation and it'll becomes normal.

Yeah it's true that if nobody gets angry enough to pursue it, then it's academic whether it's illegal or not.

Spoiler: But I wouldn't say angry ex-backers are in short supply

yeah..I wish I had refunded when you still could.
I'd have repledged, but for a starter pack only.
At least I'm only in for a 300 or so.
(source)

And here I am sunk 1600$ in and I've half a kind to walk right into cig and demand it back.
(source)

I've spent thousands on this "dream" which is what theyre selling. Been playing off and on for a long ass time... I feel scammed as of late and don't want to play out of spite. Yes i know its an alpha but you pay attention to their site/videos you can see our money is being spent elseware.
(source)

I've supported the original Kickstarter for SC, even got one of the higher pledge goals, because I really wanted this vision come to life as it was advertised. This is not it and it had been clear for years now that it would never be. And I honestly don't understand the delusional fans that bought into it the same as me, but didn't realize when they were being ripped of and instead doubled down on being sucked into the scam. Honestly, if you get a lot of hate for this then it's from people that hate themselves for being fools and don't like to be reminded. I gambled, I lost. It was an important lesson as I'm not gonna gamble like that again.
(source)

Star Citizen has a really good advertising department? I've been backing that heap of neverending garbage since day 1 on kickstarter and then later directly on their page with one of the largest backer packages. If I was awake when they were giving refunds,
I'd be having enough money now to buy a decent car. So yeah, that's my gripe.
(source)

I purchased a SC ship package (Prospector pack) almost 10 years ago now and I think the dev progression for this game is dog crap. When you REALLY look at what you can do in the game with 11 years of production it's an absolute joke considering the funding it's received...

...I want to love the game, I really do, but I feel like it's all just a scam whenever I play it. I understand it's early access but surely there should be more things to do in game!!
(source)

It's sickening to be honest. I back $150 in 2014 put in $60 more since then.... Not another cent, this crap is just stupid.
(source)

Etc etc etc

Literally every major comment thread outside of the fan sites is always redolent with unique names decrying misappropriated funds and/or desiring a refund.

We see some of the impact of that in refunds being actioned outside the US. (And if the bricks were to collapse in an appropriate way, a class action suit in the US doesn't seem impossible. A decade+ of people who feel defrauded might add up...)

 

[PiLhEaD]

Or perhaps without him things would have been ... worse

Gawd... ....one can only imagine (whilst whimpering, rocking quietly in a corner...)