Cetaceans in Planet Zoo (Ideas and Thoughts)

[Marvinb]

Hey everyone!

I think everyone can agree that cetaceans in captivity is a difficult topic. Where people disagree is if this should affect our game and how.
And while its still a big question mark if fully aquatic animals are ever gonna show up, discussing and brainstorming about them is still alot of fun.
So, the idea is basicly thinking about how to include whales and dolphins into PZ in an ethical way.

My idea was having them as a special kind of animal that you can only house temporary for rehab purposes. Im thinking of having a new facility, the "aquatic rehab facility" that needs to be connected to a habitat, which in turn needs to be connected to the ocean via some kind of canal, door, or something similar. I imagined this coming in some sort of Marine Mania style expansion with lots of other aquatic animals and watery goodness. If you have this facility installed in your park you will be offered injured animals every so often, which you can then can accept to nurse them back to health. After doing so successfully you will be rewarded with some goodies and the animal will be released into the wild or deemed as unreleasable and you can then keep it like standard animals (although this isnt available for whales and dolphins). Obviously the way i imagine this only really works on map with access to the sea.
The aquatic rehab facility would also work for other animals like seals, penguins and others, and would also be a way to integrate sea turles into PZ, only available via rehabs, and the unreleasable ones are the only ones you can keep afterwards.

The aquatic rehab facility, together with a normal version for all non aquatic animals would be included in the free update. The animals offered would depend on the map you chose to build your zoo on. If you for example build on a europe temperate map you will only be offered animals with the europe and temperate tag like red deer, lynx etc.

So what do you think about this idea? Do you think this would a way to include whales and dolphins in an ethical way? Do you have other ideas?

 

[Fallax]

If we were to ever get cetaceans in Planet Zoo I would rather it not impact our creativity with a system like this, I say this as someone who has mixed thoughts on keeping cetaceans in captivity.

 

[Marvinb]

If we were to ever get cetaceans in Planet Zoo I would rather it not impact our creativity with a system like this, I say this as someone who has mixed thoughts on keeping cetaceans in captivity.

Fair point. Although you would still be able to build the rehab habitat just like the normal habitat, i definetly see how having whales and dolphins only available temporary, and only on maps with oceans is a big restriction.

But i think it would be the right way to do it. The way i imagined it is mainly from a non sandbox point of view, so maybe it could be different in sandbox to enable full creativity mode

 

[Captain Callum]

I cant bring myself to say yes you can house cetaceans ethically, being from the uk the attitude towards cetaceans is vastly different from many other countries who take the pleasure in showing off these collections of animals. Personal experience from seeing them in the wild and the rather dire conditions like seaworld (before someone points it out, I know there's far worse) where dolphins have a tiny pool to swim around, I've seen manatees with more room to swim.

That being said we should phrase this into 2 questions - can we realistically have fully aquatic animals in the game, and should ethics dictate the decision to include cetaceans? Both questions are open ended that shouldn't require the need for another gameplay mechanic to limits our creativity around building such an area in our zoos. The aquatic rehab facility is a good idea but defeats the point of our zoos ingame where it is supposed to be a sanctuary for wildlife where conservation takes the main goal (or that's what it should be anyway).

Fully aquatic animals as we are all aware needs a new system for animal delivery and care. It could further expand on the exhibit plop mechanic where animals are automatically fed and placed on display at a moments notice, or it could be an entirely new system with keepers feeding and delivering animals similar to real aquariums - this is complex of course and frontier needs to realise how such a system would even fit in the game before thinking of what animals could be included.

We have the proboscis monkey, three toed sloth and various other animals where we clearly shouldn't have due to welfare concerns but here we are. Frontier doesn't seem to care what works in real life and what works in the planco universe. On that basis real life ethics shouldn't be considered solely on an inclusion basis, its the presence of cetaceans in a dlc is the main problem. Cetaceans clearly show how the player base splits - one half wants cetaceans whether for caring for the animals or nostalgia from zoo tycoon, the other half seriously opposes the inclusion on welfare concerns forgetting the animal is just a bunch of pixels.

Going back to the rehab building idea though, I would rather see manatee and sea turtles use a rehab facility before seeing it for cetaceans. The sheer size needed to rehab a whale would be gigantic in habitat terms.

 

[Orkan]

I like the rehab idea. What if we did That but with less creative restraints.

So first off you build the rehab facility in your park. This facility is not just for aquatic animals, but for all animals. Every so often new animals will appear in the menu for you to take care of. You can then take the animals Into your zoo and house them with some basic requirements. After a certain amount of time and care, depending on how much work you put into the animal, it could be releasable, in which case you will be rewarded, or non-releasable. If the problem couldn’t be fixed in the first place, then nothing will happen, you’ll just get to keep the animal. But if it’s non-releaseable because you neglected it, it will be taken away from you. Now here’s where cetaceans get involved.

In order to unlock cetaceans and different animals to take in you must first start with basic animals, and work your way up to the more difficult ones. For example you start with small animals of Least concern, like praire dogs and foxes. Then you work your way up to rarer, larger species, like orangutans or Amur leopards. At the top of the list is cetaceans.

to house ceteceans you must first comply with very strict housing requirements, and if you fail to meet the requirements then you won’t be able to put the animal in the area. From there it basically works like any other animal.

 

[Orkan]

Going back to the rehab building idea though, I would rather see manatee and sea turtles use a rehab facility before seeing it for cetaceans. The sheer size needed to rehab a whale would be gigantic in habitat terms.

if this is a standard facility size (I could be wrong) do ‘t forget that we can literally fit like tens of elephants in these little boxes, so I wouldn’t be too worried about that.

 

[Marvinb]

Going back to the rehab building idea though, I would rather see manatee and sea turtles use a rehab facility before seeing it for cetaceans. The sheer size needed to rehab a whale would be gigantic in habitat terms.

Im not suggesting stuff like giant whales. The animals i thought of as available in the rehab sytems would be the animals like bottlenose dolphin, beluga and co, with orcas being the biggest species include. An while the habitat would still be enormous, the fact that its on towards the edge of the map and close or integrated into the sea would help to make such a big habitat less obvious

 

[Swjosdotschka]

We have the proboscis monkey, three toed sloth and various other animals where we clearly shouldn't have due to welfare concerns but here we are. Frontier doesn't seem to care what works in real life and what works in the planco universe.

I feel that isn't really due to "not caring what works", but is honestly more based on poor research. At least that's how I see especially the Sloth. Don't get me wrong, the nature research is there, but they are missing the research of what can be successfully kept in zoos. So it's less of a statement.

Cetaceans would be a statement. You have to live under a rock to not get note of the controverse around it. With the sloth... they took the one with bigger meme and symbolic representation and are probably surprised the zoo nerds aren't happy.

 

[DarthQuell]

While I'm personally not against cetaceans (although I have never seen one before in a zoo, only in the wild), I don't think it'd be good from a business standpoint.

While many players would likely happily buy a DLC revolver around cetaceans (including myself), the fact that there is also a huge group of people who are actively against it could not only bring down the ratings, but also they could (this is all hypothetical) try to discourage others from buying the pack and even cause problems for Frontier, which could cause lower income.


The rehab idea is interesting, though

 

[Marvinb]

While I'm personally not against cetaceans (although I have never seen one before in a zoo, only in the wild), I don't think it'd be good from a business standpoint.

While many players would likely happily buy a DLC revolver around cetaceans (including myself), the fact that there is also a huge group of people who are actively against it could not only bring down the ratings, but also they could (this is all hypothetical) try to discourage others from buying the pack and even cause problems for Frontier, which could cause lower income.


The rehab idea is interesting, though

Yeah that kinda the point of the thread, finding a solution on which all can agree (it probaly doesnt exist, but a man can dream xD)

 

[premierfong]

I think we can have some cetacean. Although some might hate it but I think most still love it, this game is for everyone. Dolphins, Orca, Beluga, and maybe some smaller cetaceans too. I am sure it still sell well.

 

[AlexSea]

If we do get fully aquatic animals (which I very much doubt at this point), I'd be fine with cetaceans being some of them. This is a video game after all, it doesn't have to be completely realistic all the time. As for which cetaceans we could get, I think the Orca, Bottlenose Dolphin, Beluga Whale, and maybe a clone like the Pacific White-Sided Dolphin would be a good roster.

 

[DarthQuell]

Yeah that kinda the point of the thread, finding a solution on which all can agree (it probaly doesnt exist, but a man can dream xD)

Oh, well duh, I'm so slow

And I reread my quote. A DLC revolver sounds kinda cool. Imagine that, instead of projectiles, it shoots new DLC

 

[Doran]

What do I think?
Frontier wont bother. It is just silly game. If we are going to get few whales all of them will work just like other animals.

 

[premierfong]

What do I think?
Frontier wont bother. It is just silly game. If we are going to get few whales all of them will work just like other animals.

and still make a lot of money

 

[nutrit]

Beluga and any dolphin would be more than enough for me.
Add the manatee, pelican, walrus, sea turtle and penguin or sea otter and you have a killer pack that would change it all.

 

[Iben]

Don't get me wrong, the nature research is there, but they are missing the research of what can be successfully kept in zoos. So it's less of a statement.

At least from what I've heard from members of our community that are from South America, the sloth is pretty much a similar case to the Proboscis Monkey. They're successfully kept in South America, just not successfully kept outside of it. There's at least 3 South American zoos that keep them, but according to Callado and Carlos there are probably more.

I'd say Platypus, Proboscis and the sloth are three prime examples of niche animals that can be used to make very specific zoos from very specific parts in the world. Given that those animals aren't the majority of our roster, I think it's perfectly fine for them to be in the game.

Now, for the on topic part of this, my simple answer to this is: there's no way Frontier is going to risk it. Frontier is a public facing company that does live-streams, events and is active on several social media platforms. No matter how you twist and turn it, no matter how much you put the emphasis on the fact that this is a game, no matter how much ingame mechanics you introduce to make it feel ethical; people who are vehemently against cetaceans in captivity will be extremely vocal about it and will do that in spaces where the game/DLC is being promoted.

I can't see Frontier risking the PR and social media hassle their teams would have to deal with. There's simply no "solution" to this, other than to simply avoid it at all costs

 

[Swjosdotschka]

@Iben The Platypus was high on the Metawishlist though and the Proboscis was quite popular too, if I remember correctly. With the Sloth they even chose the lesser requested, if I remember correctly.
Of course they can be used in niche projects. I still feel it's a wasted slot, but that's personal preference. With the ongoing lack of primates the Proboscis is even more frustrating for me. But again: Personal preference.

What I was getting at is, that all those animals are in no way a statement of "not caring what can be successfully kept". If there is any awareness about the challenges of keeping xy in captivity, that would be worth mentioning anywhere honestly (zoopedia etc).

 

[NZFanatic]

We have the proboscis monkey, three toed sloth and various other animals where we clearly shouldn't have due to welfare concerns

Just want to point out that none of the animals in the game currently are subject to any particular ethics concerns. The proboscis monkey is only rare in captivity because they are difficult to feed. While that does technically fall under 'welfare' the context in comparing it to cetaceans makes the phrasing a little misleading. The proboscis monkey diet is notoriously difficult to reproduce in captivity.

Other 'ethics' concerns - polar bear, elephants, great apes - are nowhere near as major or physically and psychologically detrimental to the animals as they are with cetaceans. Elephants come close, but even then the big difference is that it's economically viable to improve upon their captive situation (and this is something a lot of major zoos are doing now - redesigning their elephant habitats to be enormous with all the proper facilities, including independent vet surgeries, soft substrate for indoor areas despite the additional labour required to maintain it, and a constant enrichment rotation (the same goes for primates these days, too).

The fact is that there is still so much we have no idea about with regards to cetaceans in the wild that it's sheer hubris to think we could have any idea about how to keep them healthy and happy in captivity. There's also the issue that a lot of people assume successful captive breeding automatically means the animal is in a good environment. Given that old school zoos used to breed animals in iron bar and concrete boxes, this is clearly not the case.

 

[Spiderhawk]

Marvinb I like this concept you have created. Aquatic rehab facility could be a cool feature.
Cetaceans in captivity I am on the fence about.
Orcas absolutely NO! Orcas suffer and struggle without members of their family pods.
Unreleasable dolphins I’d be willing to listen in on.
Belugas: I have seen the belugas at the mystic aquarium and the Georgia aquarium and they seem to be given great care and stress free.

Honestly I think fully aquatic and your idea would work in the theoretical Planet Aquarium as I really don’t think fully aquatic animals should get priority over land and air animals that should appear before support ends.