Thargoids & Human Permit Locked Systems

[Greasetrap42]

Are human space permit locked systems the safest place for humans to retreat to? In order to gain access many systems require the cmdr to raise rep with the given inhabitants. We all assume tis is a game mechanic (which obviously it is) but what if the ingame permit lock is actually created using some kind of generator technology that us neanderthals living in 2023 just don't understand? These permits seem to be coded to the cmdr... not their ship or any physical device given to the cmdr.

Thargoids would need human pilots with unlocked permits to enter these systems.... lots of permits to launch a successful invasion. Or enough to find the generator and destroy it. Finding enough humans with these permits might require many thousands of samples.

Honestly I don't think this is the story. But it is interesting to think about.

 

[Shadowsnog]

permit locks are issued by pilots federation and are hardcoded into our ships. nice thought, but id say the safest place from thargoids is cmdrs cockpit...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Permit-locking Hyades Sector YO-Q b5-1 didn't stop Taranis' escorts from destroying the Kingfisher. More generally the inbound trajectories of some Titans passed through Col 70 without difficulty.

Didn't stop them attacking HIP 22460 either (either the original attack on the Overlook, or the later attacks when Azimuth lured them there).

 

[Rainbro]

I'd be quite curious to see what happens if the Thargoids were to attack an inaccessible permit system, especially an inhabited one. Sadly, I'm yet to get ethical approval for the plan of deliberately letting the Thargoids carve a path through the bubble.

 

[Greasetrap42]

permit locks are issued by pilots federation and are hardcoded into our ships. nice thought

What makes you believe the permit unlock is hardcoded in our ships?

• I can buy a ship from an opposing faction and immediately enter the system I have a permit for.
• I can purchase a ship, place it on my carrier and never use it... until finally I gain a permit to a system. Switch to this ship and enter the system. When did the Pilot's Federaton sneak onto my carrier and install the permits?
• If permits are installed on ships, why don't they get removed and sold the black market?
• What about the ships I decided to sell?

 

[Rainbro]

What makes you believe the permit unlock is hardcoded in our ships?

• I can buy a ship from an opposing faction and immediately enter the system I have a permit for.
• I can purchase a ship, place it on my carrier and never use it... until finally I gain a permit to a system. Switch to this ship and enter the system. When did the Pilot's Federaton sneak onto my carrier and install the permits?
• If permits are installed on ships, why don't they get removed and sold the black market?
• What about the ships I decided to sell?

I suspect they mean that all the ships we have are programmed to respect permit locks, and check if the pilot is authorized to enter.

That said, while most permits obviously work this way, I recall Drew Wagar (writer of some Elite Dangerous novels) implying that some permit locks may not actually be under our control. Those big regions of space for example locked with Unknown Permits, maybe there's just something spooky and alien going on in them that causes our systems to fail to lock on, and throw up "Unknown Permit" as a generic error.

Course, that doesn't mean Frontier are ever going to actually address the Unknown Permits either way. Mechanically they are very obvious placeholders, regardless of whatever initial ideas Frontier had for them or why they're there.

 

[Greasetrap42]

I suspect they mean that all the ships we have are programmed to respect permit locks, and check if the pilot is authorized to enter.

That would mean somehow ships recognize the cmdr as being authorized... hence the permit is linked to the cmdr. Not the ship.

If I sell my ship to someone, presumably they don't get access to my permits.

 

[Rainbro]

That would mean somehow ships recognize the cmdr as being authorized... hence the permit is linked to the cmdr. Not the ship.

If I sell my ship to someone, presumably they don't get access to my permits.

Yes, I'd expect that to be the case. Permit-offerers generally care about your rep with them, not what ship you're using.

 

[Greasetrap42]

Permit-locking Hyades Sector YO-Q b5-1 didn't stop Taranis' escorts from destroying the Kingfisher. More generally the inbound trajectories of some Titans passed through Col 70 without difficulty.

I wonder how many human abductions were necessary leading up to this before they got sufficient permits?

 

[Shadowsnog]

That would mean somehow ships recognize the cmdr as being authorized... hence the permit is linked to the cmdr. Not the ship.

If I sell my ship to someone, presumably they don't get access to my permits.

yes, the permit is linked to commander. but it is not stored behind your ears or under your nails (nor in the balls), its stored in the ship

A permit is a special access code that is downloaded into a ship's navigation computer

The Pilots Federation holds the authority to place permit restrictions on systems

source

 

[Greasetrap42]

A permit is a special access code that is downloaded into a ship's navigation computer

Yes, and what if that code that is downloaded to the ship computer comes from reading the DNA of the pilot? Or some other aspect of the cmdr that we do not understand?



Edit: Also if the ship was all that was needed to enter a permit locked system... then an evil pirate or Thargoid only needs to steal a cmdr's ship. Not exactly a very secure permit locking idea.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

I'd be quite curious to see what happens if the Thargoids were to attack an inaccessible permit system, especially an inhabited one. Sadly, I'm yet to get ethical approval for the plan of deliberately letting the Thargoids carve a path through the bubble.

This actually almost happened! I mentioned it and posed the same question in one of my updates a few months ago:

While emptying M. Cocijo of inhabited targets earlier, something which alarmed me a bit was noticing that the Navigation panel had in it the permit-locked system HIP 39425. Checking the Galaxy map:

HIP 39425 is a locked, empty system with, according to a search, no known means to access it. I am unsure whether being permit-locked keeps out the Thargoids, but I suspect not, and I imagine an attack there would leave a permanent Control system able to attack others. Were it not for Maelstroms being kept busy further in, I think M. Cocijo would be within a month of that occurring, and it is well that we are driving it back a bit!

With the greatest of apologies for denying such a scientific opportunity, it remains my suspicion that letting Thargoids into HIP 39425 probably would succeed, and for the moment it remains my position that probably we should not try it. Prior to the availability of the Sub-surface Extraction Missile and to some new activities in update 17 for which the war effects have yet to be determined, this would have created a permanent Control system.

However, now that has changed; Titan rescues have been inducing Thargoid retreats from their outer systems. In theory, if we let them take back Vocovii and stop enough attacks elsewhere around M. Cocijo so that they get a chance at visiting HIP 39425, we could discover whether it works while retaining an exit strategy via Titan rescues, after we have established that it remains an assured means of doing so.

In practice, there is a quite large problem—you would need to convince all of the Commanders who have been denying the Thargoids a single new Control system for several months, actually prior to my comments above from July, to stop now at M. Cocijo. I am surprised continually at how impossible this is, and indeed that technically it is easier to defeat all the Thargoids than to tell anyone to stop!

 

[Rat Catcher]

Interesting...

If the permits are stored on the CMDR, surely flying physical multi-crew, as a holder of any elite rank, with a non-elite CMDR, would entitle that CMDR access to e.g. Jameson Station as the elite CMDR crew has the correct credentials?

 

[Kira Goto]

Yes, and what if that code that is downloaded to the ship computer comes from reading the DNA of the pilot? Or some other aspect of the cmdr that we do not understand?



Edit: Also if the ship was all that was needed to enter a permit locked system... then an evil pirate or Thargoid only needs to steal a cmdr's ship. Not exactly a very secure permit locking idea.

We do have suits with their own onboard computer. Or maybe, idk, it’s some kinda chip in our heads. Or just a simple bio scan.

 

[Greasetrap42]

Interesting...

If the permits are stored on the CMDR, surely flying physical multi-crew, as a holder of any elite rank, with a non-elite CMDR, would entitle that CMDR access to e.g. Jameson Station as the elite CMDR crew has the correct credentials?

Good question, what does happen if you travel with non-elite crew to Jameson? I don't know. But isn't this the same situation whether the permit is held by the cmdr or the ship?

When we transport NPC passengers I'm sure they don't all have permits. I don't remember explicitly trying this, but I assume we aren't blocked from entering permit locked systems with NPC passengers. Which suggests as long as there is a permit holding pilot on board others can enter the system in the same ship.

It is possible that entry into a permit locked system requires the combination of a Cmdr with the permits AND a Pilot Federation ship.

 

[Shadowsnog]

Yes, and what if that code that is downloaded to the ship computer comes from reading the DNA of the pilot? Or some other aspect of the cmdr that we do not understand?



Edit: Also if the ship was all that was needed to enter a permit locked system... then an evil pirate or Thargoid only needs to steal a cmdr's ship. Not exactly a very secure permit locking idea.

im afraid its quite the other way around. its not that you require a cmdrs ship to enter the permit lock, its the not-pilots-federation ship that you need to enter permit locks. eg theres that one mining company that has been seen going to and from col 70... (however there is that possibility that they just have permit from pf and we dont)
in other words: thargoids already have access to any and all systems regardless of pf permits.
without the pf nav comp theres nothing stopping you from entering locked systems.
not to mention goids have different access to witchspace. we have jump range and have to travel in hops to get to a distance. goids enter witchspace and exit it at their destination, as seen when titans were just stargoids...

Good question, what does happen if you travel with non-elite crew to Jameson? I don't know. But isn't this the same situation whether the permit is held by the cmdr or the ship?

accesss is given to the pilot. that means if you dont have permit to some system, you can still hitch a ride with a cmdr that has the permit.

 

[Greasetrap42]

im afraid its quite the other way around. its not that you require a cmdrs ship to enter the permit lock, its the not-pilots-federation ship that you need to enter permit locks. eg theres that one mining company that has been seen going to and from col 70... (however there is that possibility that they just have permit from pf and we dont)
in other words: thargoids already have access to any and all systems regardless of pf permits.
without the pf nav comp theres nothing stopping you from entering locked systems.

That doesn't seam like a very good security measure. That would suggest that any hillbilly that whips together a non-pilot federation ship has access to any permit blocked system. Which could be true, just sounds like a really crumby measure for trying to keep the riff-raff out of a system.


<keep in mind I am well aware that the whole permit locking concept is a cheepo game mechanic>

 

[Shadowsnog]

That doesn't seam like a very good security measure. That would suggest that any hillbilly that whips together a non-pilot federation ship has access to any permit blocked system. Which could be true, just sounds like a really crumby measure for trying to keep the riff-raff out of a system.


<keep in mind I am well aware that the whole permit locking concept is a cheepo game mechanic>

technically yes, but in the organic world of elite dangerous even the most poor player cmdr with a stock cobra is in the top 1% of the population. even regular folks that have ships have to count their credits real hard before even firing a missile... any hillbilly in ed is as far from getting a ship as i am from getting a superyacht or a private jet irl
its not very apparent during regular gameplay, but the life of an organic space sim cmdr is vastly different from the meta grinding multibillionaire player

 

[Rat Catcher]

Good question, what does happen if you travel with non-elite crew to Jameson?

Hmmm... Methinks I'll try an experiment with my 'junior' account - crew up with one of the others and see if I can buy a new ship at Jameson and outfit it...

 

[Greasetrap42]

technically yes, but in the organic world of elite dangerous even the most poor player cmdr with a stock cobra is in the top 1% of the population. even regular folks that have ships have to count their credits real hard before even firing a missile... any hillbilly in ed is as far from getting a ship as i am from getting a superyacht or a private jet irl
its not very apparent during regular gameplay, but the life of an organic space sim cmdr is vastly different from the meta grinding multibillionaire player

Based on the vast numbers of space pirates, drug gangs, and civil wars it seems like there would be lots of pilots and ships not registered with Pilots Federation. But who knows, it is an over-simplified environment for the sake of a video game so maybe. Certainly every low-life bad-guy drug runner we meet has a Pilot Federation rank which does support the idea that 100% ALL pilots and ships are registered with the Pilots Federation