No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

[littleminxundr]

But if you made the purchase based on the information that was available about the game you might have a point. If you feel that you've been cheated then you should look for a refund.

I don't feel cheated. I merely bought the wrong entry-ticket, based on the fact that I was sufficiently convinced that Offline was in. The wording of the beta acess had me thinking, but I went with that anyway.

I've filed for a refund, but I'm not going to put more energy in it than that; for that my price for admission is just not high enough. I won't be getting what I came onboard for and for that I feel I qualify for a refund. My advantage can be that I'm a resident of the Netherlands; we do have some rights that supercedes Frontier's terms and my reason is in the Netherlands a valid complaint.
But getting your right is a battle you must for yourself decide to fight. Some things are just not worth the hassle and standing by a principle can easily become cutting off your nose to spite your face.
For me the consideration is:
€60 back after weeks of grinding teeth if Frontier doesn't refund straight away (and even then maybe having to settle for a compromise and losing access to the game.);
or conceeding and play the game freely after being denied a refund, because even without the offline, I can still the play the game and enjoy myself. (Just not as often as I would wish.)
There's no malice to Frontier here and I don't feel anger when I see the icon my dektop. I haven't started the game since friday just because I might decide to ask for a refund afterall and that makes me sad. I have the time and chance right now to play my game, but I can't because of legalities. Realistically, I'm losing out double right now!

It's good to garner some perspective, I guess.

 

[Phelix]

Luckily EU law is pretty rigid in terms of loopholes and funny talkarounds when it comes to consumer rights. If you don't get the product you were paying for, no EULA, lawyer speak or other shenanigans will get you out of that refund. They may say we payed for a beta, but we also had a promise of a future offline mode that now is gone. That makes the deal null and void, and me entitled to a refund as per EU law, which has brought companies like Microsoft too it's knees, so frontier should be an easy match.
I hope they enjoy getting drowned in lawyers, or that they have their flippers handy...

 

[Pyelot]

You are aware, the newsletter #50 is out early
And DB addresses the offline issue in detail

 

[poet1960]

If you go to the store and see 2 bottles of soda on the shelf, one is 2x the size and full (and never needs refilled), the other is empty to about 1/3 and both the same cost... Most will want the larger one.

Let's have a look at that analogy. 2 bottles of soda on the shelf, one is 2x the size and full etc, and the other is empty to about 1/3.

Considering that the same company produced both of those bottles begs the question, why did you do it that way? You could have evenly divided the soda between the two, but for some reason you chose to do it the way you did. Ah I see, you wanted to sell more of the bigger ones, because later on you could sell other stuff injected into that ever filling bottle.

 

[-c-s-]

You are aware, the newsletter #50 is out early
And DB addresses the offline issue in detail

Excellent writeup about it here

 

[ramentu]

A better analogy:
I wanted a battery powered xyz. I had one when I was a kid.
Vendor offer a much improved xyx that could work either plugged on mainpower or on battery,with warning that it wont work as well on battery.
I decide to buy it, it look like it will be a great product.
I also get the offer to beta test the product while I wait for the finished one, but only in plugged in mode.
I also agree.
1 year later and 3 weeks before delivery, I am told that
-the product will not work on battery.
-since I tried the experimental one, I am not entitled a refund for the (mostly useless to me) finished product.
-And I am told that it doesnt use much power anyway and there are power plug everywere so why am I complaining or even wanting a battery operated xyz.
And you expect me to be happy ?
It may be legal, it may even have been done in good faith to deliver a better product, but it still stink.

 

[Anne Otherplayer]

Davids 'vision' is quite short sighted when it comes to fairness to those that have made his 'vision' a reality. Big Brother is having another vision, hope you are part of it.

 

[phlOgistOn]

Luckily EU law is pretty rigid in terms of loopholes and funny talkarounds when it comes to consumer rights. If you don't get the product you were paying for, no EULA, lawyer speak or other shenanigans will get you out of that refund. They may say we payed for a beta, but we also had a promise of a future offline mode that now is gone. That makes the deal null and void, and me entitled to a refund as per EU law, which has brought companies like Microsoft too it's knees, so frontier should be an easy match.
I hope they enjoy getting drowned in lawyers, or that they have their flippers handy...

Go read your receipt

Spoiler

 

[foxpur]

Luckily EU law is pretty rigid in terms of loopholes and funny talkarounds when it comes to consumer rights. If you don't get the product you were paying for, no EULA, lawyer speak or other shenanigans will get you out of that refund. They may say we payed for a beta, but we also had a promise of a future offline mode that now is gone. That makes the deal null and void, and me entitled to a refund as per EU law, which has brought companies like Microsoft too it's knees, so frontier should be an easy match.
I hope they enjoy getting drowned in lawyers, or that they have their flippers handy...

You make the same mistake many make... you never bought anything if you are beta. There is nothing to refund. You paid for a idea that comes with a copy of the game when it is don't. But the money was support for a idea, not to buy a game. That's why there is no refund, you paid for a idea, and the part of the idea you liked go removed (doesn't matter why, just when) but you still paid them to have an idea. It is technically a donation, but since they are not non-profit you can't claim it on your taxes.

Picture this. In a room of investors and partners. You see and overview of what they hope to make. So you say, good idea, here's my cash, build it. So they build on the idea, but one of the parts doesn't want to work, and if you force it the whole idea is messed up... for the idea to be ready to sell that chapter of the plan has to be edited out... which is not fun, it has potential but just can't work.. shame that... BUT... the idea is sent out. Your money has produced the idea and done... but you liked that part that got coy. Can't be helped, it just refused to work without breaking everything. You are mad, but you paid for the idea to be built as best as they could.. and here it is. You didn't give money to own the final idea, you game money to put the idea together.

This is why the refunds for the Alpha, Beta, Backers is usually a NO, because, bluntly said, they legally don't have to.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

Go read your receipt..

Yep, and that's what I intend to put to Trading Standards, it's exceptionally weasel-esque because it effectively circumvents a lot of the laws relating to the Sale of Goods Act, or at least attempts to. It's a very clever trick, but I don't think it'll fly because the average customer wouldn't expect that their purchase was entirely for the beta with the game made a "Free" reward.

 

[foxpur]

Analogy Fun!!! Creative idea logistics... this is kinda fun.

 

[GHDW]

I understand FD's postion; if you played, no refunds. If that concept is bothersome to some then perhaps their choice to play wasn't in their best interest, no need to vilify the company for their poor choice.

Those of us who enjoy playing have paid to be a part of an unfinished project, and provide bug tracking information for free. It is absurd, but I waited a decade hoping a game like this would show up and none have come close. So I joined to experience the blinking, stuttering mess at times, helping all that I can, knowing full well my money and time went to something I wanted to exist rather than another placebo.

 

[Jonbe54]

If you go to the store and see 2 bottles of soda on the shelf, one is 2x the size and full (and never needs refilled), the other is empty to about 1/3 and both the same cost... Most will want the larger one.

That's always assuming the bottles are transparent . . you know transparency . . . like being open and above board . . . like communicating with your backers . . . but of course if your ok then its all fine.

 

[littleminxundr]

Yep, and that's what I intend to put to Trading Standards, it's exceptionally weasel-esque because it effectively circumvents a lot of the laws relating to the Sale of Goods Act, or at least attempts to. It's a very clever trick, but I don't think it'll fly because the average customer wouldn't expect that their purchase was entirely for the beta with the game made a "Free" reward.

Which leads immedeately to the question: Why didn't they read the very first line? I did, and understood what was being sold to me. And I'm not anybody special or something. Just someone who takes the time reading stuff.

 

[Harbinger]

I, and I imagine most others against always online DRM, would be more than happy to shut up if we could just get our refunds.

Don't get me wrong, you all have a right to have your say but it became a circular argument long ago and there have been no staff responses in these topics for days. (Moderators are not staff, they are unpaid volunteers).

Frontier have drawn a line in the sand and are for better or worse standing by their decision. The AMA topic / Newsletter #50 answer some of the questions that come up often in this topic (and it's predecessor) and I highly doubt you'll see any further staff responses on this topic any time soon.

By all means keep posting, just don't expect a staff response to anything you post here as I highly doubt any Frontier employees are even reading these topics anymore.

 

[phlOgistOn]

Yep, and that's what I intend to put to Trading Standards, it's exceptionally weasel-esque because it effectively circumvents a lot of the laws relating to the Sale of Goods Act, or at least attempts to. It's a very clever trick, but I don't think it'll fly because the average customer wouldn't expect that their purchase was entirely for the beta with the game made a "Free" reward.

I think there's been a fair bit of throwing money at FD without reading the small print here by a lot of consumers: People who weren't (and in some cases still aren't) aware of what a gamble KS pledges are as well as people who jumped into buy something on the store page without actually checking what they bought (myself included there tbh but I'm not looking for a refund).

I have no idea how ASA or Trading Standards are going to treat it, specifically the promises/hopes for an unfinished product made by the devs outside of the actual store pages. I'm just trying to find my receipts for some other alpha/betas that I'm participating in to see if it's actually a standard routine.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

Which leads immedeately to the question: Why didn't they read the very first line? I did, and understood what was being sold to me. And I'm not anybody special or something. Just someone who takes the time reading stuff.

It's more the fact that even if you assume that the customer is very well informed and knows to an extent what they're getting into, deliberately moving the price of the beta around like that and making the remedial cost of the final copy of the game £0.00 is effectively designed to circumvent the Sale of Goods Act by rendering a finalised product worthless. A judge would take one look at that, then take one look at the pre-order + beta upgrade cost layout (which is £35 for the pre-order + 15 for the beta access), ask FDEV what the functional difference is, and then tell them to stop trying to play fancy number games.

Over here in the UK they don't look too kindly on tricks like that, especially when the shop front can be checked for "like for like" comparisons.

 

[Anne Otherplayer]

Elite: Dangerous - Beta FORC-FDEV-D-1002 1 $75.00
Elite: Dangerous - Lifetime Expansion Pass FORC-FDEV-D-1006 1 $50.00
Subtotal $125.00
Grand Total $125.00

So as per this receipt, after the beta ends we are entitled to nothing more and the contract was fulfilled? ! It was sold with the pre-order of the final game as it was written on the sales page. That part of the contract is still unfulfilled and cancel able. At least a pro rated refund is due, and the way to pro rate it is time the game is promised to be alive minus time beta was active. They said they will make sure the game will stay alive in perpetude so what is infinity minus 2 months? Well that's the percentage of the paid amount that is due as a refund.

 

[Phelix]

You make the same mistake many make... you never bought anything if you are beta. There is nothing to refund. You paid for a idea that comes with a copy of the game when it is don't. But the money was support for a idea, not to buy a game. That's why there is no refund, you paid for a idea, and the part of the idea you liked go removed (doesn't matter why, just when) but you still paid them to have an idea. It is technically a donation, but since they are not non-profit you can't claim it on your taxes.

Picture this. In a room of investors and partners. You see and overview of what they hope to make. So you say, good idea, here's my cash, build it. So they build on the idea, but one of the parts doesn't want to work, and if you force it the whole idea is messed up... for the idea to be ready to sell that chapter of the plan has to be edited out... which is not fun, it has potential but just can't work.. shame that... BUT... the idea is sent out. Your money has produced the idea and done... but you liked that part that got coy. Can't be helped, it just refused to work without breaking everything. You are mad, but you paid for the idea to be built as best as they could.. and here it is. You didn't give money to own the final idea, you game money to put the idea together.

This is why the refunds for the Alpha, Beta, Backers is usually a NO, because, bluntly said, they legally don't have to.

Well, I've also been told the same about steam games. That you don't own them but you rent them, just read the EULA... But that is just it, the EU law says that to sell anything to EU customers, your EULA is trumped by EU law every time, and so is every other sneaky work around to try and diminish our rights. Apple has been burned quiet hard from that here in Norway, since here it is even more severe... We have a 5 year warranty on our cell phones by law... Our consumer rights are paramount...

Edit: and we're not even properly part of the EU...

 

[Jonbe54]

Well, I've also been told the same about steam games. That you don't own them but you rent them, just read the EULA... But that is just it, the EU law says that to sell anything to EU customers, your EULA is trumped by EU law every time, and so is every other sneaky work around to try and diminish our rights. Apple has been burned quiet hard from that here in Norway, since here it is even more severe... We have a 5 year warranty on our cell phones by law... Our consumer rights are paramount...

Lucky you to live in a country determined to protect their consumers. Australia on the other hand is the well known dumping ground for third rate and obsolete technology and products simply because our comsumer rights follow the corporate centric American model of 'we have the power to stall your complaints in the courts until you go broke and the government will back us to the hilt'.