So Grom, Mahon and Arissa being the conspicuously absent.
Open-Only in PP2.0?
- Thread starter August Lagrange
- Start date
A genuine question: why not?
If open only is the only way to affect PP, why wouldn't that also count for the BGS that is tied to PP? Why can people hide in PG/solo, prep a system via BGS for PP take over, and then do PP in open only? Why aren't BGS player give the same privilege of being able to deal with BGS undermining/manipulation Open v. Open?
The biggest difference is that with general BGS, ones protecting their turf will only make things worse with PvP if their adversary has no bounties. As someone who occasionally likes to commit a little mischief and minor mayhem for my chosen faction (95% in open), I dare to claim that probably most BGS players get rid of their bounties ASAP. So in the theoretical event that someone tries to "get me" in their system because I incidentally once had a few thousand credit price on my head due to some planetary scan or emplacement power failure missions, they'll be hurting their own controlling faction more by destroying my now squeaky-clean ship
Most of the time I cause chaos simply by doing bounty hunting or random missions, nothing illegal or nefarious, over a few days in a system--just this weekend I pushed two factions in a system into civil war without even trying, just doing some RES sessions and even "exporting" half of the vouchers to another system Remember, it's called background simulation, after all.With all this in mind, question arises: how do you tell if someone even is intentionally messing with your BGS when they can do that with purely legal means without any bounties on their head and always have plausible deniability? Someone really wanting to mess around won't show up on station bounty board and traffic reports can be bypassed if you use Apex taxies to eg get around doing Odyssey missions, export your vouchers that you need to "dump" or to grab a ship in a neighboring system to complete your mission there. IIRC, Apex taxis won't even show up in supercruise so someone dedicated can completely ghost you even in 100% open and without any funny business regarding blocklists or router settings
Best case scenario, you see them in a station concourse taking Apex, and then what?In short, purposeful BGS shenanigans are hard to pinpoint and PvP in general BGS makes little sense--it's probably more effective to just do INF missions to counterbalance the mischief someone is causing, intentionally or not.
Personally for me, and it's going back a long time, I was pretty excited about PP when it was first announced but what came out wasn't anything like what had been described. I wanted something to feel a part of, with a common goal and meaningful content, what we got was a meaningless layer which seemed to sit underneath the actual galaxy and could be completely ignored.
I tried it on many occasions but, in a similar way to the BGS, player groups and home systems, the thing is flawed when you can't see what you are up against. At this point it's worth mentioning, I don't think I ever had an issue with solo/group players and they are as important to the game as anyone (we all paid for it) but FDEV never got to grips with how everyones actions effect everyone else. They never got a decent crime and punishment system in place, still haven't. Back in the day, even the hardcore pirates, code and the smiling dogs wanted being bad to have consequences, never happened.
Anyway, I and many people disengaged with PP beyond gaming the process for the gear because it was ultimately meaningless and impossible to prevent hidden volumes of people carrying tickets from one station to another, without a similar amount of people doing the exact opposite. It wasn't gameplay, it was mind numbing grind for nothing.
I tried it on many occasions but, in a similar way to the BGS, player groups and home systems, the thing is flawed when you can't see what you are up against. At this point it's worth mentioning, I don't think I ever had an issue with solo/group players and they are as important to the game as anyone (we all paid for it) but FDEV never got to grips with how everyones actions effect everyone else. They never got a decent crime and punishment system in place, still haven't. Back in the day, even the hardcore pirates, code and the smiling dogs wanted being bad to have consequences, never happened.
Anyway, I and many people disengaged with PP beyond gaming the process for the gear because it was ultimately meaningless and impossible to prevent hidden volumes of people carrying tickets from one station to another, without a similar amount of people doing the exact opposite. It wasn't gameplay, it was mind numbing grind for nothing.
Honestly I wouldn't read anything into the absences, there are a lot of groups involved in PP and getting in contact with them all is a task.
All that for two words from my post, then the following for the meat of my post:
I'm not sure if you agree or disagree
Also RE Aisling, the starlight brigade doesn't speak for the whole of the community; the largest discord (purposely avoiding "official") encourages it but has a "do what you want" policy with respect to modes, or at least it did when I was last there, if I remember correctly. Times may have changed.
Edit: not a dig and I don't have a problem with people who BGS or PP in solo or PG. Personally I have more fun doing those sorts of things in open.
I disagree that OOPP wouldn't work unless there were a split galaxy between modes. Just having it so that any merits held disappear with a message if you go into PG or solo is a very simple thing to do.I'm not sure if you agree or disagree
If a clean CMDR in open is doing legal activities which adversely affects some faction's BGS, then there, imo, should be no excuse for the faction whose BGS is adversely affected to commit crimes by attacking the clean CMDR. If clean CMDRs should not be illegally attacked, then there should be no issue with them flying in solo/PG. They should just be countered with missions etc.
Steve
Steve
That sums up my PP1 experience perfectly.
There isn't an argument for it because it doesn't need to be justified ... in any way. Since you have zero idea what I am doing in solo how could you attribute that to "Spoiling your fun". That is absurd.
The biggest difference is that with general BGS, ones protecting their turf will only make things worse with PvP if their adversary has no bounties. As someone who occasionally likes to commit a little mischief and minor mayhem for my chosen faction (95% in open), I dare to claim that probably most BGS players get rid of their bounties ASAP. So in the theoretical event that someone tries to "get me" in their system because I incidentally once had a few thousand credit price on my head due to some planetary scan or emplacement power failure missions, they'll be hurting their own controlling faction more by destroying my now squeaky-clean ship
With all this in mind, question arises: how do you tell if someone even is intentionally messing with your BGS when they can do that with purely legal means without any bounties on their head and always have plausible deniability? Someone really wanting to mess around won't show up on station bounty board and traffic reports can be bypassed if you use Apex taxies to eg get around doing Odyssey missions, export your vouchers that you need to "dump" or to grab a ship in a neighboring system to complete your mission there. IIRC, Apex taxis won't even show up in supercruise so someone dedicated can completely ghost you even in 100% open and without any funny business regarding blocklists or router settings
In short, purposeful BGS shenanigans are hard to pinpoint and PvP in general BGS makes little sense--it's probably more effective to just do INF missions to counterbalance the mischief someone is causing, intentionally or not.
This doesn't really answer my question, so I will ask again: Why - as a matter of principle and fairness - will PP players get Open v. Open with OOPP, but BGS players won't?
PvP in BGS has the same status right now as PvP in PP v1. PvP happens all the time in BGS conflicts. And it also happens often that some side loses and then hides in PG/Solo.
It seems to me any argument brought up for OOPP is equally as valid for OOBGS. So why only OOPP but not also OOBGS?
Well, in doubt shoot... then ask
Firstly ... just want to say that I really have no dog in this fight as I find PP convoluted and pointless .... but ...out of curiosity ... Couldn't you simply have PP2.0 in both Open and Solo but simply restrict the amount of influence made in Solo ?
Yes, you could. Its been suggested many times by players and devs.
I suspect that the reason why some find it a mind-numbing grind is because they're doing it without a community, in solo or PG. It's confusing as all hell because nothing is explained. Undermining without the nav beacon exploit is an absurd amount of work for little gain, hauling is just taking things from place to place, gaining nothing, losing money.
Granted, some of that will be fixed by 2.0, but the core problem will remain. I think a part of the solution has to be to get players involved in the community.
Because it's background simulation which main purpose is to make the galaxy feel "alive" by reacting to every and all player actions and apply changes to faction states globally across all game modes. It was never meant to be conciously and purposefully manipulated by players. Of course, it's not opaque enough to avoid being manipulated and so people manipulate it. Most of the BGS effects are beneficial to everyone in the big picture—boom states offering great prices for miners and traders, war states offering ship and on-foot CZ-s, etc. Why should creating these effects be limited to open only?
In 99% of cases, PvP in BGS has no beneficial effects for the defending party. Only exception is when two factions are in actual conflict state, and then only in conflict zones—and even this is ineffective if the opposing players are doing "Kill x <insert faction name> ships" missions. Combat bonds survive ship destruction so killing ships leaving CZ-s does jack all. Destroying ships en route to CZ-s could help, but you're still better off doing missions and winning CZ-s instead.
Most of the PvP in BGS when there is no acrual war state is only useful for attackers to lower the security state and influence of the controlling faction, and even for that killing clean NPC ships at nav beacon or haz REZ is faster. For defenders, best way to counter attackers is staying in private group doing bounty hunting and INF missions.
Ah right, the age old fallacy of "BGS is not meant to be played", even though years of FDev changes suggesting the contrary - including the big BGS update (in 3.1?), squadrons tied to factions, as well as player-named minor factions. Right, I understand.
Honestly, at this point I am advocating for two open modes: one for BGS and one for PP, so everyone can denounce each others preferred play style as irrelevant, from their own safe-zones. /s
Even better: Different tasks for solo/pg and open. Some tasks are available to anyone, but some (special missions or similar) are only available in Open. This could work with the special carriers as well... only dockable in open.
Tasks in open should come with a big payout in credits for incentive. It's still possbile to avoid open and the resulting PP influence is not different. But the big bucks and opportunities come with a risk of facing opposition from someone doing the same thing for competing powers.
A perk for high ranks/loyalty could be a reduced rebuy when doing PP missions if you die to an opposing player (not npc).
Remember: The chance of actually meeting someone in open is rather slim, as geography and timezones come into play during matchmaking.