Powerplay 2.0 “Open” Rewards

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Actually they have have relative meanings; ie, relatively easy and relatively hazard free.
'Objectively Easy' is nonsense. 'Objectively hazard free' is objectively false.

Well, I clarified

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Unfortunately, we have a perfect example of what happens when you get organic PVP. We saw the perfect case study in cqc, where musketeer basically single-handedly drove off everyone who wanted to do it.

For a while there, I was doing CQC quite regularly, and sometimes had a pretty good game going along, until musketeer would drop in, kill everyone, and in short order everyone would leave.

Well then I think it's great that nothing comparable has happened in PP1.0, which I think is an actual good example. Unlike CQC, which is the opposite of organic.

 

[DemiserofD]

Well then I think it's great that nothing comparable has happened in PP1.0, which I think is an actual good example. Unlike CQC, which is the opposite of organic.

Where basically exactly the same thing happened? All the actual meaningful players moved to solo, and quit pvp.

Let's be honest here; no game has ever made organic PVP work on a large scale. It just doesn't work to have a game that's only fun for about 1% of the player base.

If we had some sort of Elo system, that only allowed you to be matched with someone near your skill level, and an active moderation team that would ban people who would attempt to cheat the system, that's the only way something like this might work.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Where basically exactly the same thing happened? All the actual meaningful players moved to solo, and quit pvp.

That's not true. I don't think you're familiar with the situation, respectfully. The reason PP1.0 has low overall uptake is the quality of the underlying gameplay, bugs, exploitable loopholes, etc. Hopefully set to change. And, of course, the option some take to skip consequences by going to solo/PG - that's a big chill on PvP naturally. But we've kept it going. Top flight, competitive PvPers often take part. My entire power does things in open, and takes the consequences, from the minnows to the endgamers. Being in an organised community makes that much easier to sustain for a bunch of reasons.

Let's be honest here; no game has ever made organic PVP work on a large scale. It just doesn't work to have a game that's only fun for about 1% of the player base.

If we had some sort of Elo system, that only allowed you to be matched with someone near your skill level, and an active moderation team that would ban people who would attempt to cheat the system, that's the only way something like this might work.

I think you make it a soft opt-in. You can already contribute hugely in PP 1.0, in open, while completely avoiding PvP, by choosing your target systems/activities. It's not a CG in one system. That looks set to be accommodated even more consciously in PP2.0. But there will remain hotly contested objectives, where PvP will be leveraged.

 

[heathenlamb]

I think that's true of ED but then you extrapolate to PP. I think people think PP should be designed/played in a way that makes thematic and contextual sense. Expecting it to be easy and hazard-free is in conflict with its premise.

I extrapolate to PP because that is the current experience on the forum.

"Expecting it to be easy" ... I am unsure why people recycle this argument. Literally noone who plays Solo has said "I want PP to be easy". I want it to be challenging and fun ... That seems entirely within the scope of PP regardless of Open/Solo.

 

[DemiserofD]

That's not true. I don't think you're familiar with the situation, respectfully. The reason PP1.0 has low overall uptake is the quality of the underlying gameplay, bugs, exploitable loopholes, etc.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse, respectfully. If the things you propose were viable, then most of those problems wouldn't exist in the first place. The vast majority of issues with PP1.0 has to do with half the participants not wanting to see the other half, and nothing about open only is going to change that.

The biggest challenge of making pvp viable is making both sides WANT to see each other. No system proposed thus far(except mine) has solved that problem; it just attempts to employ increasingly convoluted methods to force one side to play where they don't want to play, failing to recognize that if someone can't enjoy playing, they just won't play at all.

And then you're left in the unenviable position of pvpers being forced to haul so the game goes on. Except, of course, most pvpers don't particularly enjoy doing that, so after a little while, they quit too, and things mostly die. Which is exactly what happened with PP1.0.

Which ironically puts things back in the hands of the haulers - who, as you point out, mostly haul unhindered anyway. Which is, of course, why they can actually do what they enjoy doing; hauling without interruption.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I apologize for the translation.
I'm sorry, I didn't quite get that. I have single player missions on my mission board. For example, kill the Pirate Lord.
I do them in one player.
Why don't I ask for additional rewards for completing these missions in single player ?
Because in the open game, a person can take a wing and it will be easier for him to kill this Lord.

You can also wing up in private groups as well.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's not true in real life, and it's not even true in game, why should that suddenly change for power play 2.0?

The number of places and times where the most physically dangerous path is also the most profitable one is fairly small. Certainly, I expect it to be the case some of the time, but by no means anywhere near the majority of the time.

Indeed, in many places, the most physically dangerous job is also the worst paying.

Whats real life got to do with this?

Hauling in Powerplay is how powers stay alive and grow. Therefore its a target- and in Powerplay there are areas that are very dangerous. In V2 where Sandros uncapped UM ideas are being used activity will be focused which will be more risk in Open than solo.

Plus, aren't you forgetting missions reward better for doing more?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Unfortunately, we have a perfect example of what happens when you get organic PVP. We saw the perfect case study in cqc, where musketeer basically single-handedly drove off everyone who wanted to do it.

For a while there, I was doing CQC quite regularly, and sometimes had a pretty good game going along, until musketeer would drop in, kill everyone, and in short order everyone would leave.

I have no experience in CQC, but how does a confined arena shooter translate to an open game like Elite where you can come and go willingly as you please?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Canonically, power play is not especially violent. Much the contrary, in fact; it has more to do with power brokering, backroom deals, secret deliveries.

Politics, in other words. And certainly, politics occasionally breaks down into open violence, but that's rare. The real driving force behind politics is money, not violence.

Except 1/3 (minimum) of PP V1 is shooting (UM). Half of Powers expand violently (in CZs). Powers hunt down traitors.

'Politics' as you put it is abstracted into deliveries alone- and subject to attacks (even the pathetic NPC attempts) and piracy (which has largely been removed but not entirely).

 

[Rubbernuke]

Which ironically puts things back in the hands of the haulers - who, as you point out, mostly haul unhindered anyway. Which is, of course, why they can actually do what they enjoy doing; hauling without interruption.

Cargo hauling is how powers stay solvent. If this is unobstructed how do you reconcile that with the larger overall strategy layer if nothing (NPC or player) is allowed to disturb them? I find it strange you don't understand these haulers are strategic targets in Powerplay and that if they fail, the power fails.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse, respectfully. If the things you propose were viable, then most of those problems wouldn't exist in the first place. The vast majority of issues with PP1.0 has to do with half the participants not wanting to see the other half, and nothing about open only is going to change that.

The reason why PP V1 fails is because of exactly what you want; separate out everything into lanes and nothing ever influences each other leading to reductive, simplistic gameplay. In V1 this is hauling in isolation, fighting in isolation and so on.

The 'underlying gameplay' in V1 is charitably barebones- either haul endlessly (with weak and scant NPCs or other players) or shoot weak NPCs endlessly (i.e. 2015 stuff). People failed to engage because it was launched half cooked, with conceptual flaws (allowing 5C) and punishing time gating / decay. In short it was dull and unrewarding.

Its only later on did modes really begin to bite, and that repeatedy FD saw mode equality as a problem.

 

[Rubbernuke]

And since Elite has 10+ combat ranks, how does PvP in PP2.0, like any other gameloop get balanced for each combat rank: (harmless, most harmless, novice, competent, expert, master, deadly, dangerous, Elite, and finally Elite I-V)?

The Elite rank system is pointless as its cumulative over an indefinite period of time.

You can easily balance using mertics like weekly effort and internal power rankings (both in V2), its only natural rivals target 'aces'. You do more, you are targetted more.

Another is using the BGS mission template system. Missions have grades for risk v reward, and price in NPC oppositon that you decide to take on. PP could use this and difficult tasks reward lots of merits, as well as having lots of variety.

 

[DemiserofD]

Hauling in Powerplay is how powers stay alive and grow. Therefore its a target

You keep repeating this point, but I've never seen you actually support it.

I see no compelling reason why the one leads to the other. If another power is outhauling you, you should put in more effort and skill, and outhaul them right back.

Your argument could equally be made about anything that currently has no value in the game, not just pvp. For example, "If they are hauling more merits than me, I should be able to challenge them to a canyon race, and if I win, their hours of hauling should be erased."

Which is, of course, completely unfair, since you're only going to challenge them at something you're already good at. Meanwhile, they're outhauling you because that's what they're good at.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You keep repeating this point, but I've never seen you actually support it.

I see no compelling reason why the one leads to the other. If another power is outhauling you, you should put in more effort and skill, and outhaul them right back.

Your argument could equally be made about anything that currently has no value in the game, not just pvp. For example, "If they are hauling more merits than me, I should be able to challenge them to a canyon race, and if I win, their hours of hauling should be erased."

Which is, of course, completely unfair, since you're only going to challenge them at something you're already good at. Meanwhile, they're outhauling you because that's what they're good at.

If there is no link, tell me:

How do Powers prepare systems? Do they load cargo into railguns and shoot it out?
How do Powers fortify?
What if you just want to stop another power or slow it down? Not every power contests everything equally.

Hauling in Powerplay is logistics and supply lines, and subject to opposition.

If another power is outhauling you, you should put in more effort and skill, and outhaul them right back.

Again- reductive gameplay. In V1 this just results in incredibly one dimensional hauling or shooting- and is one of the main reasons no-one does it....its dull. Why does everything get reduced down to plain faceless grinding? Maybe if hauling was harder, totals would be lower and Powers smaller and more vulnerable- unlike now where Powers have to fall asleep to be attacked.

Your argument could equally be made about anything that currently has no value in the game, not just pvp. For example, "If they are hauling more merits than me, I should be able to challenge them to a canyon race, and if I win, their hours of hauling should be erased."

? No it can't. The situation is you have a vital job that keeps powers out of turmoil and that if slowed or stopped is a problem. Not every power contests everything equally and applying pressure is a tool to weaken rivals.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

I extrapolate to PP because that is the current experience on the forum.

"Expecting it to be easy" ... I am unsure why people recycle this argument. Literally noone who plays Solo has said "I want PP to be easy". I want it to be challenging and fun ... That seems entirely within the scope of PP regardless of Open/Solo.

So you're saying you want powerplay to be more challenging than it currently is. I can agree with that.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse, respectfully. If the things you propose were viable, then most of those problems wouldn't exist in the first place. The vast majority of issues with PP1.0 has to do with half the participants not wanting to see the other half, and nothing about open only is going to change that.

No, there are heinous design flaws. That's not debatable.

The biggest challenge of making pvp viable is making both sides WANT to see each other. No system proposed thus far(except mine) has solved that problem; it just attempts to employ increasingly convoluted methods to force one side to play where they don't want to play, failing to recognize that if someone can't enjoy playing, they just won't play at all.

The larger part of the problem is not people with an aversion to open, it's people who exit open when they feel it will give them an advantage that they can use. The more even the odds, the more likely the are to use that get-out. They're not cheaters you see, it's just so easy for them to to do.

And then you're left in the unenviable position of pvpers being forced to haul so the game goes on. Except, of course, most pvpers don't particularly enjoy doing that, so after a little while, they quit too, and things mostly die. Which is exactly what happened with PP1.0.

Which ironically puts things back in the hands of the haulers - who, as you point out, mostly haul unhindered anyway. Which is, of course, why they can actually do what they enjoy doing; hauling without interruption.

I don't understand this. You're imagining that no self-respecting hauler would go to open. Our haulers all do. They're not superhumans, they just play the game that they see as being in front of them. What the PvPers do is run top-cover. Without the top cover, the hauler's life becomes more difficult but teamwork can keep things flowing. Also, an archetypal powerplayer is someone who does everything. They PvP because they want to. They haul because the want to. There's a spectrum ofc but that's the median.

 

[Rubbernuke]

No, there are heinous design flaws. That's not debatable.

The larger part of the problem is not people with an aversion to open, it's people who exit open when they feel it will give them an advantage that they can use. The more even the odds, the more likely the are to use that get-out. They're not cheaters you see, it's just so easy for them to to do.

I don't understand this. You're imagining that no self-respecting hauler would go to open. Our haulers all do. They're not superhumans, they just play the game that they see as being in front of them. What the PvPers do is run top-cover. Without the top cover, the hauler's life becomes more difficult but teamwork can keep things flowing. Also, an archetypal powerplayer is someone who does everything. They PvP because they want to. They haul because the want to. There's a spectrum ofc but that's the median.

If haulers hate PvP in all its forms why is it Winters (who is all hauling) is the most active in Open?

 

[SergMx]

You can also wing up in private groups as well.

Yes. Why do want to make restrictions if I don't play open game, but don't want to get restrictions if they don't play single player ?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Yes. Why do want to make restrictions if I don't play open game, but don't want to get restrictions if they don't play single player ?

I don't. Its others who want restrictions.

 

[DemiserofD]

If there is no link, tell me:

How do Powers prepare systems? Do they load cargo into railguns and shoot it out?
How do Powers fortify?
What if you just want to stop another power or slow it down? Not every power contests everything equally.

Hauling in Powerplay is logistics and supply lines, and subject to opposition.

Uh...they haul cargo. Again, I'm failing to see the connection. It's like saying, "Birds fly, and therefore we must have swords!"

The opposition is outhauling them. That's it. Is it not great gameplay? Absolutely. That doesn't in any way imply that the only way to make it better is, as you claim, pvp opposition.