Powerplay 2.0 “Open” Rewards

[DemiserofD]

I'm applying some, I think, plausible assumptions to demonstrate that the number doesn't mean what you think it means, that without proper constraint you can't use it for anything, that conclusive use of the statistic is likely to require additional work. You've applied only one assumption - "this number means what I'd like it to mean".

More accurately, that number paired with the existing body of research on player subtypes is what makes me say what it means.

If the studies showed that the majority of players are pvpers then your argument could have merit, but frankly, that isn't the case.

Your argument here seems to stem from a complete misunderstanding of PvP in Elite and its role in powerplay. I'm not saying there's nothing in it - a feature has to give breathing space to PvEers and lower skill players (like me), but... Elite does that. Powerplay leverages PvP more, but still does that.

I mean, we'll definitely have to see how exactly they implement PP2.0 before we can say with any degree of confidence. I'm not unilaterally against the integration of pvp, I'm merely against the assumptions being used in support of - and to guide - proposals for it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Statistics is all you need, honestly. If you're at the bottom of the pile, everyone you meet will be better than you. Which makes pvp frustrating no matter who you meet, which means you quit. Which means the guy who was just above you is now worst, so HE quits, and then the guy above him, and the guy above him, and so on and so forth. Any freeform pvp mode eventually becomes dominated by a small number of players.

As for how I know people will quit? Because I've been that top player. If I don't intentionally play nicely and allow others to participate, then they quit very quickly. Indeed, they even did this study with rats; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5074863/

Larger rats will play with the smaller rats. But if the larger rats don't let the smaller rats 'win' about 30% of the time, the smaller rats stop playing.

And as being someone who ran a power and helped with another, I can tell you a great deal of new players who join got trained and join in regardless- the quitters were mostly solo guys who had a feature that remained dull and lifeless.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

I want a Powerplay that helps me meet other players of similar affinity to me, and we can go do stuff together. Like mining. And if we mine enough, we can have our efforts represented as political dominance. That'd be fun for me.

Thats great, but its not what the devs on air describe V2 as (or what they intend to play out).

 

[DemiserofD]

And as being someone who ran a power and helped with another, I can tell you a great deal of new players who join got trained and join in regardless- the quitters were mostly solo guys who had a feature that remained dull and lifeless.

Don't get me wrong, even a small percentage of players is still a significant quantity of a larger playerbase. But because their primary motivating factor is social rather than the pure joy of pvp, they aren't going to stick around anywhere near as long as other players if they're forced to deal with unpleasant activities on a regular basis(see the above study on the fact that pvp will only reduce enjoyment overall.)

PVP is all well and good, but socialization is the real driving factor that needs to be cultivated.

Thats great, but its not what the devs on air describe V2 as.

Isn't it? I watched the latest frameshift live and it seems fairly in keeping with that. In fact, the only place they really referenced pvp was with regards to stronghold megaships. Everything else was pretty well pve-focused.

from a perspective of, like, you as a player, it's how you get to basically pledge yourself to one of these powers and be their acting force in the galaxy, spread their influence, butt heads with other players, that sort of stuff.

Our goal with this is definitely to make it more player friendly and and easy to just jump into and start enjoying the experience.

from a perspective of, like, you as a player, it's how you get to basically pledge yourself to one of these powers and be their acting force in the galaxy, spread their influence, butt heads with other players, that sort of stuff.

One potential aspect is Finance. It's not particularly exciting but some people are really into that sort of idea of, you know, basically just coming in and being like, look we will be very good for your economy and we're going to show you that through these actions so, you know, Basically making really good successful trades with the local system, bumping our economy full of good stuff that they've been after for a long time like all of that sort of sort of good stuff and you show them that your power is good.

Gaining superiority via making good trades doesn't really scream pvp to me. Nor does exploration another thing we know will be allowed. They actually said that ALL actions will help your power now, though some will be preferentially weighted based on which power you're part of.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Don't get me wrong, even a small percentage of players is still a significant quantity of a larger playerbase. But because their primary motivating factor is social rather than the pure joy of pvp, they aren't going to stick around anywhere near as long as other players if they're forced to deal with unpleasant activities on a regular basis(see the above study on the fact that pvp will only reduce enjoyment overall.)

PVP is all well and good, but socialization is the real driving factor that needs to be cultivated.

And it is- teamwork in fighting, fortifying, training, just goofing about as well as discussing builds and tactics outside the game. When they are shot down they learn and improve, drawing on others.

While you do get some of that in solo, it more commonly devolves into "I'll grind X at Y and what is the best min max ship to do that".

Isn't it? I watched the latest frameshift live and it seems fairly in keeping with that. In fact, the only place they really referenced pvp was with regards to stronghold megaships. Everything else was pretty well pve-focused.

Well you have the UI saying kill other commanders, devs saying kill other players, massive fights from contested expansions, FCs- while I do say some of that is PvE, the devs frame most of it with "kill other players / members / commanders". They also say haulers have to mitigate combat too- hence why I said I hope either NPCs or PvP steps up.

Such as "you basically just get to have a fight with them you as I said gloves off right so go and kill the other power members go go and kill their ships go and stop them doing anything that they're going to do"- now unless NPCs ship PP cargo then that means......

Or one you'll love: ""if you are a trader, dodge the fights but show them you can still trade (like crazy) in this scenario"

Or

Gaining superiority via making good trades doesn't really scream pvp to me. Nor does exploration another thing we know will be allowed. They actually said that ALL actions will help your power now, though some will be preferentially weighted based on which power you're part of.

All that is either moderated via NPCs or by other players- the real crunch point will come after U19 releases and FD see if having V1s mode agnosticism is detrimental with faceless grind races.

Our goal with this is definitely to make it more player friendly and and easy to just jump into and start enjoying the experience.

This is mainly talking about the impenetrability of PP and what you can actually do at a relatable level to get involved- where is weak, what do I do.

 

[DemiserofD]

I mean, that same image also talks about turning in exploration data. If ever there were a NON-pvp activity, it's that.

If people can bank billions in exploration data and dump it all at once, I don't see how you expect to stop that via pvp, lol.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

More accurately, that number paired with the existing body of research on player subtypes is what makes me say what it means.

If the studies showed that the majority of players are pvpers then your argument could have merit, but frankly, that isn't the case.

You're not seeing the wood for the trees. I'm saying that for many, PvP isn't their main focus, but it is an essential expectation within their run of play. You're saying "90% of people don't like PvP" which is a simplistic statement and not supported by the statistics. Yes there are hardcore PvPers that are the "top gun"s, but other players with a broad focus can fulfil meaningful outcomes with PvP as a feature within the mix. And they like it that way.

I mean, we'll definitely have to see how exactly they implement PP2.0 before we can say with any degree of confidence. I'm not unilaterally against the integration of pvp, I'm merely against the assumptions being used in support of - and to guide - proposals for it.

Stepping back, what I'm seeing is two parallel desires - one is for organic and unscripted PvP like currently happens in PP1.0 (and to some extent BGS) in open. The other is for more a more constrained, semi-organised (by the game) form of PvP - pretty much exclusively from people who eschew powerplay, or PP in open anyway, right now, and dislike happenstance PvP. I'm not sure I'd have a problem with both existing in different parallel contexts within the feature, if the constrained version hard distinguished itself from CQC. A little like how Frontline Solutions choreographs things for on-foot CZs, but still makes sense. Except that it'd need to be separate contexts for it to work in-ship.

But the organic version is going to be zero effort to implement, so if there's only going to be one... and then it's just an open-incentivised question. And for that open incentive there's a whole spectrum of offerings people have suggested, devoting less or more consideration to players who would prefer to be in closed modes. It's not just one song.

 

[DemiserofD]

You're not seeing the wood for the trees. I'm saying that for many, PvP isn't their main focus, but it is an essential expectation within their run of play. You're saying "90% of people don't like PvP" which is a simplistic statement and not supported by the statistics. Yes there are hardcore PvPers that are the "top gun"s, but other players with a broad focus can fulfil meaningful outcomes with PvP as a feature within the mix. And they like it that way.

Honestly, you only need to go to Reddit to get a more accurate idea of how most people view asymmetric pvp. The biggest advantage of forum-based systems rather than upvote-based systems is that unpopular ideas can retain an equal voice, which presents the illusion of parity here on the forums. But any time anyone mentions pvp in a nonconsensual context on Reddit, there is overwhelming support for the non-pvp side. I believe my viewpoint - namely, that most people will engage in pvp, but predominately in a casual manner - is reasonably sound based on the available evidence paired with statistical analysis done by researchers. It gels with my personal experience, the experience of researchers, AND the consistent results seen on Reddit. For these players, pvp is fun because it's NOT serious. Make it serious, and much of that entertainment value goes away, as demonstrated by the study I posted above; the presence of pvp can only reduce the overall enjoyment of an activity or keep it the same, not increase it.

Stepping back, what I'm seeing is two parallel desires - one is for organic and unscripted PvP like currently happens in PP1.0 (and to some extent BGS) in open. The other is for more a more constrained, semi-organised (by the game) form of PvP - pretty much exclusively from people who eschew powerplay, or PP in open anyway, right now, and dislike happenstance PvP. I'm not sure I'd have a problem with both existing in different parallel contexts within the feature, if the constrained version hard distinguished itself from CQC. A little like how Frontline Solutions choreographs things for on-foot CZs, but still makes sense. Except that it'd need to be separate contexts for it to work in-ship.

But the organic version is going to be zero effort to implement, so if there's only going to be one... and then it's just an open-incentivised question. And for that open incentive there's a whole spectrum of offerings people have suggested, devoting less or more consideration to players who would prefer to be in closed modes. It's not just one song.

There's no reason the current strain of unconstrained organic open pvp can't continue to occur. In fact, if designed properly, it would become more common than ever; one of the biggest weaknesses of organic pvp in the past has been that it's difficult for disparate pilots to find each other to work together on an activity. The best way to find other players is currently via discord, twitch, or other out-of-game services, which leads to private group play.

If Powerplay 2.0 has better social tools and matchmaking, as well as making it clearer where and how to play, that will naturally lead to more players playing in open, since the social benefits of doing so will be magnified.

That's always been the biggest failure of Open, in my mind; it's meant to be a place to meet strangers, but historically, 99% of those strangers are either going to waste your time hogging a pad, or actively want to kill you. Open should be where you go to meet new people; if Powerplay can achieve that alone, it will be a success as far as I'm concerned.

I'm fully in favor of organic methods like that of leading more people to open, and encouraging them to play there. That's the right way to achieve the goal.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Honestly, you only need to go to Reddit to get a more accurate idea of how most people view asymmetric pvp. The biggest advantage of forum-based systems rather than upvote-based systems is that unpopular ideas can retain an equal voice, which presents the illusion of parity here on the forums.

Funniest thing I've read all day - thank you

But any time anyone mentions pvp in a nonconsensual context on Reddit, there is overwhelming support for the non-pvp side. I believe my viewpoint - namely, that most people will engage in pvp, but predominately in a casual manner - is reasonably sound based on the available evidence paired with statistical analysis done by researchers. It gels with my personal experience, the experience of researchers, AND the consistent results seen on Reddit. For these players, pvp is fun because it's NOT serious. Make it serious, and much of that entertainment value goes away, as demonstrated by the study I posted above; the presence of pvp can only reduce the overall enjoyment of an activity or keep it the same, not increase it.

Breathing space. Other objectives, buffers of activity (non-grinding amounts) that can be done in closed modes, etc.

There's no reason the current strain of unconstrained organic open pvp can't continue to occur. In fact, if designed properly, it would become more common than ever; one of the biggest weaknesses of organic pvp in the past has been that it's difficult for disparate pilots to find each other to work together on an activity. The best way to find other players is currently via discord, twitch, or other out-of-game services, which leads to private group play.

Can lead to it, but IME not.

If Powerplay 2.0 has better social tools and matchmaking, as well as making it clearer where and how to play, that will naturally lead to more players playing in open, since the social benefits of doing so will be magnified.

That's always been the biggest failure of Open, in my mind; it's meant to be a place to meet strangers, but historically, 99% of those strangers are either going to waste your time hogging a pad, or actively want to kill you. Open should be where you go to meet new people; if Powerplay can achieve that alone, it will be a success as far as I'm concerned.

I'm fully in favor of organic methods like that of leading more people to open, and encouraging them to play there. That's the right way to achieve the goal.

Agree.

 

[DemiserofD]

Funniest thing I've read all day - thank you

Honestly, the sheer disdain for pvp on reddit really should be a big red flag for you. It is, after all, one of the largest groups of elite players out there; certainly larger than this forum, and possibly larger than any one discord.

 

[Screemonster]

Making pvp a necessary component anywhere just isn't going to work for the 90% pve majority.

So because they're the majority the minority can't have it, is that it?

 

[Screemonster]

Because to them, 'conflicting' via counter-grinding is fun, while pvp...wasn't.

Really, give the video a look, it's worth a watch. Excellent case study in human behavior.

Yeah, it's a really excellent case study in how a group of players who were already being served by the rest of the gameplay stormed in and took over a mode that other people enjoyed and took it away from them, using their position as the bigger group as the sign that they're right.

There's a lot of games, and even activities in Elite, that I'm not particularly fond of, but you won't see me agitating for the removal of, say, CQC because the majority of players don't like it.

 

[Screemonster]

Honestly, the sheer disdain for pvp on reddit really should be a big red flag for you. It is, after all, one of the largest groups of elite players out there; certainly larger than this forum, and possibly larger than any one discord.

That says more about redditors than it does about PvP.

Hell, even the no man's sky subreddit has thicker skin. Last time I saw someone complain about their hardcore save get deleted by another player, the vast majority of the responses boiled down to "you made a hardcore save with the pvp flag enabled, what the hell did you expect to happen?" which is far more than I can say for the average pvp thread on the elite subreddit, which frequently boils down to comparing getting blown up in a game to actual real-life sexual assault.

 

[DemiserofD]

Everyone wants to serve their own best interests. People are basically selfish. If that comes at the cost of others, so be it; especially people they dislike or disagree with on a fundamental level.

Which is why i aim to short-circuit those problems by designing the game in such a way as to not unduly impinge on what others enjoy doing, and so everyone's selfishness can coexist.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I mean, that same image also talks about turning in exploration data. If ever there were a NON-pvp activity, it's that.

If people can bank billions in exploration data and dump it all at once, I don't see how you expect to stop that via pvp, lol.

Just below the "destroy enemy commanders", presumably delivering said data / cargo. Lets hope solo and PG offer the same level of threat Open would....

I mean, all exploration data is lost on destruction IIRC?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Everyone wants to serve their own best interests. People are basically selfish. If that comes at the cost of others, so be it; especially people they dislike or disagree with on a fundamental level.

Which is why i aim to short-circuit those problems by designing the game in such a way as to not unduly impinge on what others enjoy doing, and so everyone's selfishness can coexist.

By literally making everything so vanilla it has no personality at all. For PP V2 to stand out from generic BGS gameplay it needs to be more than what that offers rather than simply replicating it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If Powerplay 2.0 has better social tools and matchmaking, as well as making it clearer where and how to play, that will naturally lead to more players playing in open, since the social benefits of doing so will be magnified.

That's always been the biggest failure of Open, in my mind; it's meant to be a place to meet strangers, but historically, 99% of those strangers are either going to waste your time hogging a pad, or actively want to kill you. Open should be where you go to meet new people; if Powerplay can achieve that alone, it will be a success as far as I'm concerned.

I'm fully in favor of organic methods like that of leading more people to open, and encouraging them to play there. That's the right way to achieve the goal.

Agree.

V2 already has clearer objectives and player guidance (in that you know what is actively being attacked / needs defending. You also have PP exclusive FC clubhouses where you can meet others on foot too without any threat.

Games (especially ED) already have highly organised Discords and that new players are always invited to join, In my time in PP I've only known one player who refused to use any 3rd party forum and kept it 'in game'.

or actively want to kill you

In PP thats a given. In the wider game it should be expected.

Open should be where you go to meet new people

Unless I've been playing the wrong game, this happens anyway. Not everyone you meet kills you on sight. In my time many people just go o7, or ask about something.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Honestly, the sheer disdain for pvp on reddit really should be a big red flag for you. It is, after all, one of the largest groups of elite players out there; certainly larger than this forum, and possibly larger than any one discord.

I think different threads attract different people. And people pile onto threads that confirm their views. What I tend to see most often on reddit on the subject (admittedly I don't spend a lot of time there) is a strong distinction between PvP and ganking, and complaints about C&P. Most of the anti-PvP sentiment is not well-founded, and there's a rich vein of dogma in it, which is all unfortunate. Reddit certainly filters for a certain subgroup of players and views. The forum is similar or worse. All of this tempers my view of the weight of what's said there.

What was funny was that - "everyone" with a positive view of PvP or the risks if open play avoids these platforms. I was just enjoying your theorycraft.

 

[Markov Chaney]

Seriously, it would be better if whatever it is you have to deliver did not require cargo space at all. It should be some special kind of material, not commodity. So tonnage basically would not count, only the number of trips. That way you would not need any cargo racks and everyone could do all the 'hauling' in their best combat ship.

Yeah but that would be one less reason to have a ship that was built around hauling cargo. If everyone is tooling around in the latest military meta and never has to compromise on how that Chieftain is put together, it takes all the other playstyles out of BGS and PP altogether.

 

[DemiserofD]

Yeah but that would be one less reason to have a ship that was built around hauling cargo. If everyone is tooling around in the latest military meta and never has to compromise on how that Chieftain is put together, it takes all the other playstyles out of BGS and PP altogether.

It functionally does either way. Combat evasion has basically nothing to do with hauling, so either way, hauling is being excluded. Might as well do it cleanly, and avoid confusion and frustration when people realize it isn't what they thought it was.

That said, we already know that bounties and exploration data will both count, and those can be delivered in massive bulk in an indestructible uncatchable ship in a single load, so I really don't know what people expect to be able to do about that.

 

[galahad2069]

Yeah but that would be one less reason to have a ship that was built around hauling cargo. If everyone is tooling around in the latest military meta and never has to compromise on how that Chieftain is put together, it takes all the other playstyles out of BGS and PP altogether.

There would be plenty of reasons to build hauling ships, only not in PP which should never have been a hauling competition in Solo to begin with.