Open-Only in PP2.0?

Indeed - noting that those intent on 5th column operations will do what they need to, once anyway, to get in.
I'll give you an example- 5C (and sometimes powers) have been known to AFK T-10s in wings. Its a nested exploit (engineering + old style CZs + 2015 NPCs).

While the chance is non zero, it is not necessarily going to be that much more than zero, for the reasons mentioned above and taking into account time of day.
And what if it is the right time of day? Or someone logs on at the wrong time? Can you honestly say a mode thats called Open where anyone pledged and unpledged can attack has the same level of risk as Private Groups, where its you and close knit groups?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I'll give you an example- 5C (and sometimes powers) have been known to AFK T-10s in wings. Its a nested exploit (engineering + old style CZs + 2015 NPCs).
AFK anything should be nuked from orbit - as it is a blight on the game.
And what if it is the right time of day? Or someone logs on at the wrong time? Can you honestly say a mode thats called Open where anyone pledged and unpledged can attack has the same level of risk as Private Groups, where its you and close knit groups?
If there is an actual encounter then see the edit to the quoted post. The statement was not that the risk was the same - just that the perceived risk/difficulty of Open is very often much greater than the actual risk/difficulty, i.e. while hazardous situations (for one side of the encounter anyway) do occur they don't occur as often as some make out.
 
I'll give you an example- 5C (and sometimes powers) have been known to AFK T-10s in wings. Its a nested exploit (engineering + old style CZs + 2015 NPCs).


And what if it is the right time of day? Or someone logs on at the wrong time? Can you honestly say a mode thats called Open where anyone pledged and unpledged can attack has the same level of risk as Private Groups, where its you and close knit groups?
I know people who have been attacked and killed in Mobius.
 
AFK anything should be nuked from orbit - as it is a blight on the game.
But this illustrates the problem with Private Groups with Powerplay- you have the advantage of player ships without having to face rival players. PGs in Powerplay are not massive, and are often formed for 'reasons'- that being rapid collection of merits.

If there is an actual encounter then see the edit to the quoted post. The statement was not that the risk was the same - just that the perceived risk/difficulty of Open is very often much greater than the actual risk/difficulty, i.e. while hazardous situations (for one side of the encounter anyway) do occur they don't occur as often as some make out.
But again- its because you don't place restrictions on who you meet with its 'more'. Powerplay had capitals, expansions, inbound fort directions which funneled players. V2 has systems that act as support for others and will be targets, not to mention the plethora of hostile PMFs dotted about.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
But this illustrates the problem with Private Groups with Powerplay- you have the advantage of player ships without having to face rival players. PGs in Powerplay are not massive, and are often formed for 'reasons'- that being rapid collection of merits.
While some consider choosing not to present oneself as a target for PvP to be a problem, the same cannot be said for all players - even while engaged in Powerplay.

That said, if no risk/difficulty from opposing players were to be encountered by players, in any mode, then no modifier to reward for player opposition would reasonably be applied.
But again- its because you don't place restrictions on who you meet with its 'more'. Powerplay had capitals, expansions, inbound fort directions which funneled players. V2 has systems that act as support for others and will be targets, not to mention the plethora of hostile PMFs dotted about.
Any opponent encountered, or if the CMDR name is known, can be blocked - so the "you don't place restrictions on who you meet" statement is not accurate. We'll see in time how concentrated / dispersed Powerplay 2.0 ends up being.

One thing that might be interesting is whether we will still need to pledge to Powerplay - as Sandro mentioned at least once the idea of being able to "hide" ones pledged status while not actively engaged in Powerplay, presumably so as not to be bothered by those who assume that pledge = want to PvP all the time.
 
Open already has massive things going for it, but it is blocked and gummed up by death matchers.
Something does need to be done to channel the warrior cast; This is a fascinating reflection of human nature, I think the same thing happens out there, in reality. (Some cultures have been studying this for thousands of years)
I'd say that 20% are the max number in open play, that they are some of the most frequent regular players, and that 10% tend towards anti-social behaviour, half of them, not 10% of the 20%. So about half of the open players have anti-social tendencies in their PvP behaviour, that needs to be channelled into something other than strategic PvE sites, because it is stopping the massive community of private group players from engaging in more open play.

I can back these figures up with a thesis, but don't really have the room to do it in a forum post.

And let's face it, it would be better if we could all play nicely together in open play, I think this really was at least part of the intended model at the projects outset. If we want the procedural model to interact with its human participants in any realistic meaningful way.

It seems that Power Play as an attempt at that. I say again, now that the same minority, want to dominate the mode itself entirely, really does have to be taken as being funny, else one ends up in tears at the state of, well at the absence of humanity.

Remaining philosophical of course, it is exactly this type of person, who will strive to manipulate their surroundings in a power play, that will want to dominate others in unfair and unethical ways that are unbefitting the titles that they wear from the Pilots' Federation, I mean, it is all right there in the name.

I ask only this, how can the title 'elite' be raised up to such a lofty height again, that one can be certain that when engaging with such a pilot, that they are not low down ganking scum? Currently the title bears no weight at all; This situation alone is deserving of a massive power play, from the Pilots Federation.
 
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While some consider choosing not to present oneself as a target for PvP to be a problem, the same cannot be said for all players - even while engaged in Powerplay.

That said, if no risk/difficulty from opposing players were to be encountered by players, in any mode, then no modifier to reward for player opposition would reasonably be applied.
I'm not against wing merits as they are in the wider game, because the wider game does not have the underlying explicit rivalry Powerplay has.

And like I said before- Open really means open and that anyone has a chance- the only issue to that is blocking which would need looking at. But then, if you are not choosing to be in open, changes for Powerplay won't affect you.

Any opponent encountered, or if the CMDR name is known, can be blocked - so the "you don't place restrictions on who you meet" statement is not accurate. We'll see in time how concentrated / dispersed Powerplay 2.0 ends up being.
Thats true- and its something FD should look at, given that Powerplay is a feature with an actual focus on competition. Regards dispersion, all powers will have systems that act as anchors for other systems (its explained in the second deep dive), and that since UM does not have a cap you can't simply fort to 100% and consider it done- you'll have to keep going to keep it safe.

One thing that might be interesting is whether we will still need to pledge to Powerplay - as Sandro mentioned at least once the idea of being able to "hide" ones pledged status while not actively engaged in Powerplay, presumably so as not to be bothered by those who assume that pledge = want to PvP all the time.
I think this is irrelevant or inconsequential if we are talking about all three modes being in PP V2. In the context here you can go to solo or PG- its only if its Open Only where a flag would be of benefit- people can't argue for all modes in PP V2 and then debate about Open when these people won't be using it.
 
Open has always been a valid choice - especially for those who enjoy the frisson of the possibility of / actually engaging in PvP. It does not make the mode any more or less special than the other two modes.
And thats the paradox- its a valid choice for (as Sandro pointed out) direct action against other players, but, if players have the equal choice of solo or PG from an efficiency standpoint (since PP has actual explicit goals each week) some will choose solo or PG as it removes that threat of direct action (since NPCs are lamentably weak).

You need a reason to be in Open from a Powerplay standpoint for both power advancement and defence, hence why things like wing merits make sense being altered to make it valid.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I'm not against wing merits as they are in the wider game, because the wider game does not have the underlying explicit rivalry Powerplay has.
Wing multipliers should be removed from Powerplay altogether, regardless of game mode, as force of numbers is one factor that affects the risk/difficulty of an encounter.
And like I said before- Open really means open and that anyone has a chance- the only issue to that is blocking which would need looking at. But then, if you are not choosing to be in open, changes for Powerplay won't affect you.
I have my doubts that blocking would be changed just because of Powerplay, noting that it was introduced to the game before launch at Frontier's behest, i.e. without it being asked for by players, and has only been strengthened and made easier to use as Frontier gain more experience of player behaviour in their multi-player game.
Thats true- and its something FD should look at, given that Powerplay is a feature with an actual focus on competition. Regards dispersion, all powers will have systems that act as anchors for other systems (its explained in the second deep dive), and that since UM does not have a cap you can't simply fort to 100% and consider it done- you'll have to keep going to keep it safe.
Given the reasons for the block feature, I doubt that Frontier would effectively tell those who are prone to be blocked that all they need to do is pledge / engage in Powerplay to be able to instance with players who would otherwise block them.
I think this is irrelevant or inconsequential if we are talking about all three modes being in PP V2. In the context here you can go to solo or PG- its only if its Open Only where a flag would be of benefit- people can't argue for all modes in PP V2 and then debate about Open when these people won't be using it.
If players could only play in one game mode, I'd agree - however the choice of each player at the start of each game session is which mode to play in - so all players have a stake in how Open works.
 
Surely just for the fun of it is the best reason ?
Why do people do PP?
Why do people do BGS?
Why do people play the game ?
For the fun of it .
The problem as I see it is even open is a PG or even Solo . Depending on a list of what ifs( instancing time zone zones UK , NZ or Australia or even USA with it's not sure what day it is zone😂) .
Does all that become a factor ?
Does it then become more complicated because
You didn't meet an enemy
You didn't meet a player
You only met a friend
You met 3 enemies
Your friend shot at you
You should of instanced with deathstalker but you blocked them.
USA instances are more dangerous than UK
The list goes on and then there will be someone not happy for whatever reason .
It gets complicated and with that Elite crashes and fails
 
Some pain is needed for higher pleasure.
Are you, perchance, practicing in the school of the Marquis de Sade, a kind of 'libertine' rebel yell?

Pleasure is a feeling that has no rank, a fleeting moment that is to be appreciated, savoured. When pleasure is inappropriately correlated with status, rank, or, as you say, height, one becomes little more than a hamster on a wheel. Grinding for kicks, without ever knowing what pleasure is, whilst you are inadvertently chasing a high.
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
And thats the paradox- its a valid choice for (as Sandro pointed out) direct action against other players, but, if players have the equal choice of solo or PG from an efficiency standpoint (since PP has actual explicit goals each week) some will choose solo or PG as it removes that threat of direct action (since NPCs are lamentably weak).

You need a reason to be in Open from a Powerplay standpoint for both power advancement and defence, hence why things like wing merits make sense being altered to make it valid.
If everyone enjoyed PvP then I'd agree, however the fact that PvP is an optional extra in this game as it is not a required part of any in-game feature means that there's no need for any player who buys the game to even tolerate PvP much less engage in it.

... and, as mentioned above, Wing multipliers for Powerplay should be removed entirely as they compound the effect of risk/difficulty reduction by flying in a Wing.
 
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