Open-Only in PP2.0?

[Wily Rites]

Problem is needing to haul PP merits to control systems means hostile powerplayers know where to camp.

The problem is exacerbated for certain powers where you have to haul merits from control systems to the HQ, meaning they only need to camp at a single system [the HQ].

Are these powers, the powers that are in decline?

 

[Rebel Yell]

You cannot block enemies, they are the NPCs the game provides and are available in all modes.
You can only block players - because the game advertises the fact we don't have to play with people we don't want to play with.

I'm not your content, you're not my content.

Ok.

 

[Rebel Yell]

The problem is exacerbated for certain powers where you have to haul merits from control systems to the HQ, meaning they only need to camp at a single system [the HQ].

That's a good point as against those powers station camping is needed ( = i.e. like in Cubeo, where its all about killing powerplay haulers coming out from the mail slot) and that's definitively riskier and less efficient vs. SC interdictions. This most affects the fortification routine and turmoils. The situation is different for expansions or preparations, where it all happens (more or less) in the targeted system.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

Ah OK, so there are hot spots for attacking the supply, right that makes more sense. Well, being able to squat the HQ is an utterly unrealistic thing, seems that AI level might need to be developed further to resolve this issue, If there are not enough opposition players to do it. If a power enables some enemy power to squat their HQ, then they are not a realistic power at all, they are a power that is just about to fall, and this should be endgame for a power not the norm.

So I maintain, that wanting open only, to enforce this state, to back it up, is petulance. This gameplay state existing is breaking the realism and should be addressed. With this in mind, it appears a more lucid argument to want to diminish the effect that open has on the system and not the effect of closed. This being more a concern of equilibrium and the tuning of the dynamic, rather than anything else, and as such would far more likely be best addressed using the systems defensive AI.

I think it would be superb though, if missions were offered by powers to hunt down defectors and the likes, so that you got PvP play when defecting, as human players are sent after you. Or if you become a particularly prolific killer for one power, you then get targeted by human players who are paid to hunt you down. This could be a way of permitting PvP in solo mode, in much the same way that it happens if you go to the elite pilots retirement base, in solo mode.

I agree camping the HQ is probably not very realistic, while camping the target system is more realistic, though it can be a bit interesting since naturally players from that power would want to protect their haulers from the attackers, so you have this dynamic of Player haulers being protected by players and being attacked by players - all happening organically for powerplay. SCO drives have also made it harder to get interdicted on the way anyway.
Just keep in mind powerplay IS being reworked. Many of the 'problems' that exist now if PP was Open Only may or may not exist once powerplay gets reworked, many if not all of the current powerplay mechanics and ways to earn merits might just be scrapped altogether.


The first thing that needs to happen is for people to get it out of their minds that players being killed by players is "bad" or "griefing" or "ganking". Sure the guys that kill noobs in Deciat might be jerks, but when it comes to powerplay and BGS there is a legitimate purpose to it. If the idea is to have people engage and participate in powerplay and BGS, people being able to do it in Solo is actually very demoralizing once you get to actually play it. You never know who is doing what, where and you have no way to stop it because they are in solo. Powerplay is supposed to be a very player-driven, player-interaction group activity, so player interaction - pvp included - would probably encourage perople participating in it far more than discourage it. You get very discouraged when you think you're fighting against an invisible enemy

 

[Wily Rites]

It really ought to be very difficult to squat a powers HQ, you certainly should not be able to do it in lone combat ship with no logistic support.

 

[Wily Rites]

I agree camping the HQ is probably not very realistic, while camping the target system is more realistic, though it can be a bit interesting since naturally players from that power would want to protect their haulers from the attackers, so you have this dynamic of Player haulers being protected by players and being attacked by players - all happening organically for powerplay. SCO drives have also made it harder to get interdicted on the way anyway.
Just keep in mind powerplay IS being reworked. Many of the 'problems' that exist now if PP was Open Only may or may not exist once powerplay gets reworked, many if not all of the current powerplay mechanics and ways to earn merits might just be scrapped altogether.


The first thing that needs to happen is for people to get it out of their minds that players being killed by players is "bad" or "griefing" or "ganking". Sure the guys that kill noobs in Deciat might be jerks, but when it comes to powerplay and BGS there is a legitimate purpose to it. If the idea is to have people engage and participate in powerplay and BGS, people being able to do it in Solo is actually very demoralizing once you get to actually play it. You never know who is doing what, where and you have no way to stop it because they are in solo. Powerplay is supposed to be a very player-driven, player-interaction group activity, so player interaction - pvp included - would probably encourage perople participating in it far more than discourage it. You get very discouraged when you think you're fighting against an invisible enemy

Oh this is simply an issue with balance and realism, the only thing that drives me back into solo play at all, is how unrealistic open is, by realistic I mean that it breaks the suspension of disbelief, that is immersion in the game.

That open players might seek to use solo mode to cheat their own game mode, really speaks about them more than it does the game. Perhaps this could be made a ban able offence? Though I doubt that Fdev will want any involvement in policing that.

Ganking should be made into a feature, the issue is that it should not be possible to do, near established civilisation.

 

[St0rmFury]

Imo paying to fast track merits is one of the main issue, making an action to load up your hold which should takes seconds become a super tedious process that takes way longer than it should.

With that amount of time investment for just a single T9 or cutter haul, I can see why merit haulers do not want to see their efforts get sent to the void in a volley or two of plasma / frags.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

Imo paying to fast track merits is one of the main issue, making an action to load up your hold which should takes seconds become a super tedious process that takes way longer than it should.

With that amount of time investment for just a single T9 or cutter haul, I can see why merit haulers do not want to see their efforts get sent to the void in a volley or two of plasma / frags.

Perhaps haulers should just sacrifice a single cargo rack to account for PvP and put in some prismatic shields in them. Seriously, a cutter with prismos isn't going to die in two volleys of frags. They aren't immortal by any means but an interdiction doesn't mean death automatically. It ain't really too much sacrifice. But yes, paying to fast-track merits is like they brainstormed ideas in a drawing board and picked the absolute worst one, probably the first thing they'll cull in the rework.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Here's the thing. NPC's don't need to be able to do all that, because as far as NPCs are concerned, the Universe revolves around the individual player. They're the "My Buddy" of the galaxy. Wherever you go, they'll go. Even if common sense says that there's no reason why they should be out in the middle of nowhere.

Powerplay is essentially a CZ superimposed over the bubble, where you have explicit territories and multi jump routes. In this framework NPCs can't strategize or pursue, have virtually no persistence between systems. While a player can seamlessly move around and intelligently do things, NPCs can't do any of that- just having a random, out of context power ship appear once in a while is not co-ordination. Hence why players will always be better than NPCs, and for the reasons supplied players will always be better, even average ones. For example- in a hotly contested system Open will have multiple players fighting it out, in solo you'll have exactly the same numbers of NPCs as you do when the situation is normal.

And once again you illustrate my point. What you describe in my experience doesn’t work, thanks to the usual suspects. What should be a fun and effective on paper ends up an unappealing and frustrating experience in reality. There is something different about Elite Dangerous, something suppressing the usual suspects in Open mode which legions of programmers and paid game moderators never managed to do in other games.

And that goes double for my experiences in PowerPlay.

I'm describing what I've been doing in Powerplay in my actual experience over the years- so it does work quite happily. There are no 'usual suspects' ruining things, just 5C idiots.

And I disagree. It’s one of the reasons to play PowerPlay, but not the “driving reason” for the entire feature.

Thats its aim. Whats happened is that the main driver for powers was never put in- that of collapse. What we have now is essentially nothing, and the reason why its wound up the way it has.

And I agree with you that in my experience NPCs aren’t much of a threat to me. Where we differ is that I don’t consider myself the typical player, and that for most players even the current PowerPlay interdiction force is a threat to them.

You have the strange situation of having two similar features (Thargoid war, Powerplay) where on one side facing very powerful ships and being blown up is fine, while on the other you have the weakest ships in game from 2015 and that destruction is bad. The former with capable NPCs is an actual struggle and a threat, while the latter is not. If PP V2 is to be better, the NPCs have to be graded better and actually resist players.

That’s my hope as well. And I hope that what’s at those hot spots will encourage PvP. I’m just skeptical about whether or not this game’s network architecture and instancing rules will produce good results on a consistent basis for players who are not willing to jump through technological hoops and manipulate said instancing rules to promote PvP.

It has to be 'good enough', with sensible rules (for PP alone). I'm sure there are sad indiviuals who will bend rules, but if it works for the majority in Open then thats as much as is needed.

In my experience, the organized groups whose idea of “laughs, etc.” come at the expense of others have been conspicuously rare in Open in general, and all but absent in Open PowerPlay specifically. It doesn’t take many of these groups to ruin the experience for everyone, and you are quite fortunate that this is your first experience with a mixed PvP/PvE MMO.

I get you have had bad experiences, but you are being far to cautious in an established game and feature. Making Open have slightly more rewards is not going to suddenly destroy all that- if anything it will enhance the feature and make it distinct.

That’s why I used “quotes.” You think that players who don’t follow your self-imposed rules have an unfair advantage, and you want to be rewarded extra for following them. An extra reward to playing in Open is functionally identical to a penalty for playing in other modes. Those who don’t already follow your self-imposed rules are not going to suddenly follow them if they feel like they’re being forced to do so… especially those who are willing to go to any length to gain a competitive advantage.

To you its a penalty, to me its a (small) bonus. In the end its up to people what they risk (or not).

As I've explained repeatedly, Solo and PG have NPCs from 2015, while Open has NPCs from 2015 as well as other players from 2024. That is not equal- having low level PvE gameplay from 2015 added to PvP from 2024 makes the outcomes of the strategic layer of PP more difficult to obtain. And in all games I've played doing more rewards more, not just 'Open is itself the reward'.

I have no issue about not being rewarded for my self-imposed rules, which I’m pretty sure are harder than yours. My reward is a more interesting game. And while I’d love play exclusively with like-minded people, I really doubt those rules will be popular among the general population, and forcing others to so would not only kill any chance the game receiving further development, but would also result in an increase in the types of behavior I don’t particularly find fun.

The crux of the problem is you have a game where you can make your own rules superimposed on a feature that in Open is structured conflict between players- both cannot be true if Powerplay in open is to be watertight. Having rules that stop exploits (cargo mode swaps, held cargo / merits lost on logout unless parked) and mild bonuses for being in a hostile mode is not going to put people off or destroy everything. If anything it brings clarity to the situation rather than ignoring it.

And I still think that your solution to what is in my opinion a minor problem is one that not only won’t fix the problem, but create more problems as well.

But I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that front.

And I’m really hoping we’ll get some proper information about PowerPlay 2.0 next week!

Its an issue thats plagued Powerplay and is not a minor one. Actually having sensible rules for PP in Open (blocking changes, cargo/ combat merits lost on exit in combat mode switch), along with a bonus for open is not going to destroy everything and turn everyone into a troll. Even simply removing PGs wing bonus for merits would be helpful. It may never fully extinguish the arguements, but it is as much as can be done (finally).

Hopefully we will have more information next week, at the very least an idea as to the transition plan.

 

[Wily Rites]

Perhaps haulers should just sacrifice a single cargo rack to account for PvP and put in some prismatic shields in them. Seriously, a cutter with prismos isn't going to die in two volleys of frags. They aren't immortal by any means but an interdiction doesn't mean death automatically. It ain't really too much sacrifice. But yes, paying to fast-track merits is like they brainstormed ideas in a drawing board and picked the absolute worst one, probably the first thing they'll cull in the rework.

But only adherence to one power gives prismatic shields.

I'm in power play for the first time right now, because wanting to do PvP, in a style that has nothing to do with the actual game cosmos, sent me to get these shields. I'm here for theses shields, only for PvP, to fit the requirements to entry. Have decided to learn about power play, and look for some fun in it, rather than just purchase a large ship and do one run at the end of the 4 week initiation, which is what all the community videos on line recommend you do.

 

[Rubbernuke]

On the other hand, I’m perfectly willing to be content, as long as they’re willing to return the favor. In my experience, there’s far too many players who insist that I should be their content, but are unwilling to return the favor. This does not make for a fun experience in my opinion, and then they’ll wonder why nobody wants to play with them.

Most, if not all powers have pledges that do everything so 'willing to be content' is frankly a silly thing to say when its been like that for years and years. There is no hauling underclass Eloi and sadistic Morlock hunters- people do whats required and its an invention PP is about ritualised beating.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Problem is needing to haul PP merits to control systems means hostile powerplayers know where to camp.

The problem is exacerbated for certain powers where you have to haul merits from control systems to the HQ, meaning they only need to camp at a single system [the HQ].

The inequality (inbound v outbound) is bad, but why is having chokepoints a problem? (speaking from being in the smallest two powers who are both inbound fortifiers).

 

[Wily Rites]

The inequality (inbound v outbound) is bad, but why is having chokepoints a problem? (speaking from being in the smallest two powers who are both inbound fortifiers).

If a choke can be established and maintained by too few, it is just not realistic at all. If however, it requires more than a wing or two else covert actions, then it might start to get interesting; The reality of power is that it requires a mass, if it does not, then it is not power.

A very difficult thing to balance in an online game, can't wait to see how this is done. I'm reading about the current power play model, so that I can better understand the new system in context, when it comes out.

 

[Wily Rites]

Heck, I wanted to pledge to Yuri Grom and now I'm pledged to some blue haired princess just to get shields, what happened to me; Where did my soul and convictions go?

 

[Rubbernuke]

If a choke can be established and maintained by too few, it is just not realistic at all. If however, it requires more than a wing or two, then it might start to get interesting.
The reality of power is that it requires a mass, if it does not, then it is not power.

If you have strategic concerns (inbound fort capital) mixed with low level (i.e. flying about) gameplay it makes life very interesting.

In PP it will never be 100%- its all about disruption and slowing down a power by other means.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Heck, I wanted to pledge to Yuri Grom and now I'm pledged to some blue haired princess just to get shields, what happened to me; Where did my soul and convictions go?

From what I'm guessing this will be a thing of the past in v2. You sold your soul for nothing

 

[Wily Rites]

From what I'm guessing this will be a thing of the past in v2. You sold your soul for nothing

I'm looking forwards to finding out, there is much room for improvement, all I can see is a great game getting better!

My soul is rather tough, hobnailed even, like the underside of a marching boot; Lets just say that I'm getting sent to the cobblers!

 

[Wily Rites]

It is a bit of a shame that the PvP combat, engineering prowess and available materials not all be combined in a more realistic way, but man would this be a feat of code engineering.

It was one of the major features of the IL2 sturmovic series, which was a massive online success. But they had the actual history of the evolution of the engineering to base a structure upon; Emulating this would be tricky. Doable though, I'm sure of that.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

But only adherence to one power gives prismatic shields.

I'm in power play for the first time right now, because wanting to do PvP, in a style that has nothing to do with the actual game cosmos, sent me to get these shields. I'm here for theses shields, only for PvP, to fit the requirements to entry. Have decided to learn about power play, and look for some fun in it, rather than just purchase a large ship and do one run at the end of the 4 week initiation, which is what all the community videos on line recommend you do.

Adherence to one power getting you prismatic shields is completely irrelevant since you can re-pledge. You don't need to stay permanently pledged to the space egirl to use prismatics, honestly it's just a module with a 1 month timed paywall in essence. You also don't necessarily need prismatics just an A rated average shield, it's just that prismatics are best for what I was talking about (surviving an interdiction/gank). After you get your shields you can pledge to whoever you actually want to pledge.
It's all a bit beyond the point though; you're not going to get blown up in 2 frag salvos in a shielded hauling cutter. Some ppl complain about it while running lightweight alloy shieldless cutter builds and to me it's like the meme of the guy putting a stick on his own bycycle and then blaming someone else after injuring himself from falling to the ground

 

[Wily Rites]

Adherence to one power getting you prismatic shields is completely irrelevant since you can re-pledge. You don't need to stay permanently pledged to the space egirl to use prismatics, honestly it's just a module with a 1 month timed paywall in essence. You also don't necessarily need prismatics just an A rated average shield, it's just that prismatics are best for what I was talking about (surviving an interdiction/gank). After you get your shields you can pledge to whoever you actually want to pledge.
It's all a bit beyond the point though; you're not going to get blown up in 2 frag salvos in a shielded hauling cutter. Some ppl complain about it while running lightweight alloy shieldless cutter builds and to me it's like the meme of the guy putting a stick on his own bycycle and then blaming someone else after injuring himself from falling to the ground

Sure yes, I am aware of this, but my point is that it would, in my opinion, be better to address this as an issue, before looking at whether power play be open only or not.
For example, if one power has some technology that gives it the upper hand, then there could be missions into that powers territory, to steal the plans for the tech, so that the other powers could then make their variants of it.

Engineering is not a static commodity, only the inventors who generate new tech can be seen as that; This is fundamental to all power play in real life too, as such I suspect that it would also be rather cool in the game play, and would become a hindrance if ignored, as is arguably the case right now.