Open-Only in PP2.0?

[Darrack]

So is "getting paid for selling mined materials". What's your point?

As long as the reward is comparable yes

O7

 

[Robert Maynard]

Honestly though, I'd love to see some way of rewarding players for doing "risky" behaviour such as flying in open, but the only way to really make that practical without running into stuff like blocklists, instancing and all the other million ways people could cheese """"""flying in open"""""" would be to just... reward actually instancing with opponents.

Not a strategic reward, necessarily, but a personal one. I'm not talking about giving a bonus to your next mission's slider-movement-points because you passed a hostile player in supercruise (though that wouldn't be too terrible, it'd be open to 5th-column nonsense of someone parking a "hostile" alt in a system while their buddies run missions)

Like, if you get into a fight with another player pledged to an opposing power, then win or lose you're still fighting for your power which makes your power think more highly of you. Even escaping from an attempted bushwhack could grant you kudos. For instance, successfully initiating a jump with a hostile player present could just give you a handful of rank points. Hell, being blown up could grant you a consolation prize. (no prizes for just logging out though - escape, kill, or die, those are your options)

This would in practice work out to be an open-only benefit since it's not a thing that can happen in solo. Sure I guess in private they could arrange to meet and interdict each other to boost their ranks, but honestly... if that's how they wanna spend their playtime then let 'em, same with any other technically-effective-but-incredibly-boring way of rank grinding. Maybe put a rate limit on how often you can benefit from being pulled by the same player? idk.

If there was a "challenge factor" that could be based on a number of factors taken from both the player and the opponent(s) [NPC(s) and / or player(s)], e.g. what ship(s), what loadout(s), what NPC skill factor, damage delivered / taken, etc. then it could be used to tweak the reward for players regardless of game mode.

 

[Darrack]

Taking V1 PP as an example, the players were the opposition though outside of PvE zones like CZs. It was not unusual in Solo (when I started PP) to see no NPCs at all and having a bonus for that risk would be appropriate.

It goes back to the fact that nobody should be forced into PvP or Open for that matter.
If Open offered bonuses then you would have to play that mode to compete, which is wrong.

The rewards should be comparable, i spend an hour mining or hauling victims dissidents , hardly any risk except npcs but time consuming.
Others do PvP, high risk sure but still the same amount of time in game.
We are both doing what we enjoy.

O7

 

[Screemonster]

If there was a "challenge factor" that could be based on a number of factors taken from both the player and the opponent(s) [NPC(s) and / or player(s)], e.g. what ship(s), what loadout(s), what NPC skill factor, damage delivered / taken, etc. then it could be used to tweak the reward for players regardless of game mode.

Oh absolutely, getting interdicted by a high-rank, highly-engineered and expensive ship and managing to drop their shields before bugging out is definitely something that should be rewarded. If you're massively outclassed then simply flying into the den of wolves and repping the colours alone should be worth something. Players are generally a massively more dangerous opponent than NPCs though. If nothing else they're unpredictable.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's why I was suggesting something for actually meeting people.

The counterbalancing "reward" for not meeting people is, naturally, the fact that you can just mindlessly beeline to the station at maximum efficiency and thus get more missions in.

I think Robert and myself in the past have thrashed out how this might work, but from what I remember (based on the hooks in the BGS) you could have a system based on damage taken and location- so the BGS records areas of high player destruction (one multiplier component) and if you encounter another hostile player /NPC (another component), and perhaps damage taken / interdiction won / lost and if you lose any power cargo (which could lower the multiplier).

So it would need to reward more for delivering to dangerous places with minimal damage and that if you encounter no-one you get the 'base' rate.

Obviously you'd need to make it so it can't be gamed (maybe make the extra bonus personal and not count to the power).

But even just having a destruction heat map (akin to the trade one) and using that would be better than nothing, since you'd have to fly through dangerous places to get the bonus.

 

[Darrack]

I think Robert and myself in the past have thrashed out how this might work, but from what I remember (based on the hooks in the BGS) you could have a system based on damage taken and location- so the BGS records areas of high player destruction (one multiplier component) and if you encounter another hostile player /NPC (another component), and perhaps damage taken / interdiction won / lost and if you lose any power cargo (which could lower the multiplier).

So it would need to reward more for delivering to dangerous places with minimal damage and that if you encounter no-one you get the 'base' rate.

Obviously you'd need to make it so it can't be gamed (maybe make the extra bonus personal and not count to the power).

But even just having a destruction heat map (akin to the trade one) and using that would be better than nothing, since you'd have to fly through dangerous places to get the bonus.

If your looking at high risk delivery's vs higher level NPCs im defo in for that.
However trader vs (often) player wings so massively sides with the attackers its a no go for many of us, the attackers have no risk at all.

Increase the threat level for PVE PP2 no worries.

O7

 

[Rubbernuke]

It goes back to the fact that nobody should be forced into PvP or Open for that matter.
If Open offered bonuses then you would have to play that mode to compete, which is wrong.

The rewards should be comparable, i spend an hour mining or hauling victims dissidents , hardly any risk except npcs but time consuming.
Others do PvP, high risk sure but still the same amount of time in game.
We are both doing what we enjoy.

O7

You miss the point though- without risk why should you be rewarded the same? In that example if (it were today) you'd be flying an engineered ship against 2015 enemies while thoose in Open risk meeting players with 2024 engineering who don't follow NPC rules.

In V2, mining in Open is going to be fraught with danger unless you know what you are doing, so while you have NPCs to deal with they'll have that and other players pledged and non-pledged.

In the end its about consistency, quality of opposition and that Powerplay adds a competitive dimension. Its your choice to play it safe.

 

[Darrack]

You miss the point though- without risk why should you be rewarded the same? In that example if (it were today) you'd be flying an engineered ship against 2015 enemies while thoose in Open risk meeting players with 2024 engineering who don't follow NPC rules.

In V2, mining in Open is going to be fraught with danger unless you know what you are doing, so while you have NPCs to deal with they'll have that and other players pledged and non-pledged.

In the end its about consistency, quality of opposition and that Powerplay adds a competitive dimension. Its your choice to play it safe.

With respect your also missing the point, im talking about gameplay.
Lets flip and say that PP2 gives 100 merits for knocking out my cutter on the way to deliver goods.
Then lets say you mine 20Ts of plat, deliver it and gain 200 merits.
You may hate mining but your going to do it to compete.

Its not about risk, its about getting folks involved in PP2 and also feeling they are contributing regardless of what activity you are doing.

O7

 

[Rubbernuke]

If your looking at high risk delivery's vs higher level NPCs im defo in for that.
However trader vs (often) player wings so massively sides with the attackers its a no go for many of us, the attackers have no risk at all.

Increase the threat level for PVE PP2 no worries.

O7

Its imagined as mode agnostic scaling- so it simply takes what you've encountered at face value. So a rubbish NPC is scaled accordingly, while at the extreme end you have a substantial bonus for surviving a G5 murderboat.

This would also really be about hauling though- attackers would be rewarded with merits and influence (as seen in the FU-4 stream UI). So its really separating out rewards based on broad categories (sort of answers your later post).

 

[Robert Maynard]

Its imagined as mode agnostic scaling- so it simply takes what you've encountered at face value. So a rubbish NPC is scaled accordingly, while at the extreme end you have a substantial bonus for surviving a G5 murderboat.

.... with a negative modifier if the player was also flying a G5 murderboat....

 

[Darrack]

Its imagined as mode agnostic scaling- so it simply takes what you've encountered at face value. So a rubbish NPC is scaled accordingly, while at the extreme end you have a substantial bonus for surviving a G5 murderboat.

This would also really be about hauling though- attackers would be rewarded with merits and influence (as seen in the FU-4 stream UI).

But attackers lose nowt!
Haulers are taking all the risk.
And as many have said (including myself) you can haul in Open and see nobody.

O7

 

[Rubbernuke]

.... with a negative modifier if the player was also flying a G5 murderboat....

As I said, attackers get a different reward structure (which could be scaled to cargo) given that they waste a lot of time.

 

[Rubbernuke]

But attackers lose nowt!
Haulers are taking all the risk.
And as many have said (including myself) you can haul in Open and see nobody.

O7

Attackers lose time and have a lower fixed reward. Haulers who continually risk it get far more in the long run, so if they are shot down a clean run the next time erases that loss.

 

[Darrack]

As I said, attackers get a different reward structure (which could be scaled to cargo) given that they waste a lot of time.

They waste others time not their own, attackers have no risk, they will lose nothing if they interdict or fail.

O7

 

[Robert Maynard]

As I said, attackers get a different reward structure (which could be scaled to cargo) given that they waste a lot of time.

Yet the attacker in the G5 murderboat faces negligible or no risk....

The comment that drew this reply was actually referring to the targeted player, not the attacker, with the idea that there would be no "ship disadvantage" positive modifier taken into consideration when the attacker and the target were both flying G5 murderboats. If the attacker was in a G5 murderboat and the target was in something less capable then the modifier would be increasingly negative for the attacker and increasingly positive for the target as the ship disparity increased.

 

[Darrack]

Attackers lose time and have a lower fixed reward. Haulers who continually risk it get far more in the long run, so if they are shot down a clean run the next time erases that loss.

If you reward me extra for hauling you will soon be back here complaining.
Your chances of finding me are slim, stopping me without a wing even slimmer.
I can see how long that would last before the Open community chuck their toys out.

O&

 

[Jockey79]

If you reward me extra for hauling you will soon be back here complaining.
Your chances of finding me are slim, stopping me without a wing even slimmer.
I can see how long that would last before the Open community chuck their toys out.

O&

You know, a small part of me wants FDev to do the bonus for Open Mode. Just so I can sit in Solo for a week in the busy areas (because you all use the chat box and I can block you from there), throw everyone on my block list, then live stream me flying about in Open (getting the bonus) and never seeing a soul. Just to prove a point on how the idea is ridiculous.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Just saw a guy on the reddit calling the idea of NPC enforcers "a blatant attack on the majority of elite dangerous players who play this game to relax".

You know, the enforcers who won't attack you if you're not pledged to a hostile power.
So the idea of facing any opposition at all while actively and deliberately attacking someone else is some sort of heinous sin to some people.

"I want to affect other people, but being affected is a violation of my rights"

"Majority"... LOL I never trust or hear when peeps love to speak on behalf of someone else in big numbers.

Same applies to politicians.

 

[Rubbernuke]

They waste others time not their own, attackers have no risk, they will lose nothing if they interdict or fail.

O7

But they are not rewarded as highly (like in game now- V2 attackers have a fixed inf gain, probably flat bounty payout and fixed merit award)- unlike haulers who do (and more frequently).

 

[Rubbernuke]

If you reward me extra for hauling you will soon be back here complaining.
Your chances of finding me are slim, stopping me without a wing even slimmer.
I can see how long that would last before the Open community chuck their toys out.

O&

Whats the problem then? The system is then working as in that situation no one is rewarded unduly. You risked it, so did I but I lost time.

For a lot of people that would be fair.