Open-Only in PP2.0?

[Robert Maynard]

Does a shark take out its teeth when it attacks? Or does the shoal stop having too many fast moving fish?

Indeed not. However this is a game and not RL where that (near) apex predator has had hundreds of millions years to evolve - and games need to be fun to play. While some may find being targeted by a G5 murderboat to be "fun" it is unlikely that the same can be said of all players. Also noting that there have been complaints about on-foot gameplay lacking particular weapons, weapons that have very likely been omitted because they are not "fun" in a multi-player environment.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Indeed not. However this is a game and not RL where that (near) apex predator has had hundreds of millions years to evolve - and games need to be fun to play. While some may find being targeted by a G5 murderboat to be "fun" it is unlikely that the same can be said of all players. Also noting that there have been complaints about on-foot gameplay lacking particular weapons, weapons that have very likely been omitted because they are not "fun" in a multi-player environment.

Its a a competitive feature about tactics and having capable tools to do the task, and adapting.

If you build a feature around none of that, its going to become dull very quickly. How do you think large hauling powers like Winters get on?

said of all players

True- but the question will always be is there enough to enjoy it one way or the other?

 

[Jockey79]

At what point does a system that is mode agnostic force you into Open? Unless I mistyped what we are talking about here, this is a way for all fights to be judged based on the scale of danger.

There is no danger for the attacker.
You keep on about risk v reward, well the attackers are risking nothing and are the only ones to get any reward.
Why should I risk my cargo, my ship, my rebuy, my credits and my game time - when you're putting up nothing at all?
Why expect to walk into my game time for free and get to ruin my experience for your own amusement at no cost to yourself?

Applying a bonus to one mode forces people to play that mode to receive the full benefits of their time. Remember, one modes bonus is another modes nerf (it is all about perspective, and you refuse to look at this from the other perspective).

Now, if you want to add equal danger for the attackers, you know, add some game balance so the attackers are risking something.
Then I'll reconsider my stance.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Just to entertain the idea of hauling in open for PP, will this build be able to survive a wing of 4 meta-lances long enough to reach the station (say about 5K ls away)?


C8 Prismo: https://edsy.org/s/vZPfVCH

or

C6 Prismo: https://edsy.org/s/vgMX0H2

Unless a blockade is in place, or a there's a head to head prep race, you'll hardly encounter a wing of 4 meta-lances or other murderboats... you'd even rarely encounter enemies equipped with FSD reset missiles. The majority of encounters are vs. 1 random underminer on a medium ship, with all frags or PAs... so a C6 is pretty much enough to survive a single interdiction and then hi-wake.

 

[Jockey79]

Its a a competitive feature about tactics and having capable tools to do the task, and adapting.

So is chess, and people still play it because it is balanced and both sides have an equal chance of winning.

Big pew pew vs cargo ship is not balanced, and only 1 side has a real chance of winning. It's an unbalanced game.
Until it is a balanced game, very few people will want to play it. (aka stay in Solo/PG)

 

[Robert Maynard]

Its a a competitive feature about tactics and having capable tools to do the task, and adapting.

Indeed - and all players should be challenged by the feature when engaged in it. Those in G5 murderboats are not.

If you build a feature around none of that, its going to become dull very quickly. How do you think large hauling powers like Winters get on?

If the feature is rebuilt focusing too far up the skill distribution then it's very quickly going to be ditched by those for whom it isn't fun, noting the reaction to the bugged NPCs of 2.1.

True- but the question will always be is there enough to enjoy it one way or the other?

Given that all players have been waiting for the major feature overhaul for over two years, it had better appeal to most players - otherwise it will represent a waste of development time to most players.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Don't fly in Open, problem solved faster

Unfortunately, the King forces us to play in open only under threat of being razorwhipped.

Put you all on block and continue to enjoy a product/service I paid for - problem solved.

Unfortunately, the King forces us to keep block lists empty under threat of being razorwhipped.

 

[Jockey79]

Unfortunately, the King forces us to play in open only under threat of being razorwhipped.


Unfortunately, the King forces us to keep block lists empty under threat of being razorwhipped.

This is why I'm a republican, no King (or Queen) will ever tell me what to do.
Though I am thinking of going into business selling razorwhips, 500T deliveries at a time - how rich is your King?

lol.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Unless a blockade is in place, or a there's a head to head prep race, you'll hardly encounter a wing of 4 meta-lances or other murderboats... you'd even rarely encounter enemies equipped with FSD reset missiles. The majority of encounters are vs. 1 random underminer on a medium ship, with all frags or PAs... so a C6 is pretty much enough to survive a single interdiction and then hi-wake.

And thats assuming they've managed to initiate the interdiction in the first instance.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Indeed - and all players should be challenged by the game when engaged in it. Those in G5 murderboats are not.

If the feature is rebuilt focusing too far up the skill distribution then it's very quickly going to be ditched by those for whom it isn't fun, noting the reaction to the bugged NPCs of 2.1.

Given that all players have been waiting for the major feature overhaul for over two years, it had better appeal to most players - otherwise it will represent a waste of development time to most players.

I never knew players could use gatling rails

Again, Powers such as The King and FUC overcome G5 kill death murder ships all the time. But I agree there should be a learning curve- its why for V2 I felt weighting is better because Open is more difficult.

Given that all players have been waiting for the major feature overhaul for over two years, it had better appeal to most players - otherwise it will represent a waste of development time to most players.

True, but at the same time unless the feature offers something compelling its not going to grab people either. If its dull, just as many will not play it either.

 

[Rebel Yell]

There is no danger for the attacker.
You keep on about risk v reward, well the attackers are risking nothing and are the only ones to get any reward.
Why should I risk my cargo, my ship, my rebuy, my credits and my game time - when you're putting up nothing at all?
Why expect to walk into my game time for free and get to ruin my experience for your own amusement at no cost to yourself?

Applying a bonus to one mode forces people to play that mode to receive the full benefits of their time. Remember, one modes bonus is another modes nerf (it is all about perspective, and you refuse to look at this from the other perspective).

Now, if you want to add equal danger for the attackers, you know, add some game balance so the attackers are risking something.
Then I'll reconsider my stance.

IMHO it's all perfectly balanced, "danger" is a relative and subjective (as well as "ruin" something as we're still talking about pixels) and it's not about that, but about gain which is instead an absolute concept.

The attacker suffers the opportunity cost of not gaining anything i.e. not earning credits, not doing missions...

 

[Rubbernuke]

So is chess, and people still play it because it is balanced and both sides have an equal chance of winning.

Big pew pew vs cargo ship is not balanced, and only 1 side has a real chance of winning. It's an unbalanced game.
Until it is a balanced game, very few people will want to play it. (aka stay in Solo/PG)

Does chess allow you to make pawns have double hit points, or fit bishops with faster legs? Can you move boards away from the advancing queen to a board that has no other pieces?

Adaption means compromise to fit the situation and you can't balance the game on the most vulnerable ships when you can literally change anything.

 

[Rebel Yell]

And thats assuming they've managed to initiate the interdiction in the first instance.

Yeah, indeed... an aware hauler can just make an emergency low-wake and hi-wake before getting interdicted.

Low-wake... log-off, and log-on with a other-than-open-play game mode sounds a bit "cringy" but that may happen too.

 

[Rubbernuke]

There is no danger for the attacker.

So what about other team members who are in attack ships?

You keep on about risk v reward, well the attackers are risking nothing and are the only ones to get any reward.

Unless the attacker destroys you, they get nothing while the hauler continually gains by simply landing each time.

Why should I risk my cargo, my ship, my rebuy, my credits and my game time - when you're putting up nothing at all?

Why expect to walk into my game time for free and get to ruin my experience for your own amusement at no cost to yourself?

Now, if you want to add equal danger for the attackers, you know, add some game balance so the attackers are risking something.
Then I'll reconsider my stance.

Because its part of the feature and game. Pirates come after you, other powers want you stopped- player and NPC wise. In the wider game I have no qualm about modes, inside powerplay where you need consistency its important.

Applying a bonus to one mode forces people to play that mode to receive the full benefits of their time. Remember, one modes bonus is another modes nerf (it is all about perspective, and you refuse to look at this from the other perspective).

If we are talking about the hypothetical danger bonus, its across all modes. Open has harder opponents and thus a higher reward. Risk v reward.

 

[St0rmFury]

Unless a blockade is in place, or a there's a head to head prep race, you'll hardly encounter a wing of 4 meta-lances or other murderboats... you'd even rarely encounter enemies equipped with FSD reset missiles. The majority of encounters are vs. 1 random underminer on a medium ship, with all frags or PAs... so a C6 is pretty much enough to survive a single interdiction and then hi-wake.

Alright, I'll take your word for it. This shield tank cutter will be my project for this week.

The reduced jump range and cargo space stings, but I'll manage.

For the record, I have a shieldless cutter that can jump 50 ly unladden and it's what I use for CGs.

But since PP is not time-gated & merits no longer decay, I think I'll give hauling in open a try.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Yeah, indeed... an aware hauler can just make an emergency low-wake and hi-wake before getting interdicted.

Low-wake... log-off, and log-on with a other-than-open-play game mode sounds a bit "cringy" but that may happen too.

From experience, I don't really feel you even need to log out and into another mode to 'lose' the attacker.

Curved approaches, disengaging and engaging your FSD when they drop into your instance, pre-emptive interdiction by a wingmate.

There's a lot of tools available to the open mode trader/hauler, folk just have to learn to adopt the most suitable one to the situation

 

[Jockey79]

IMHO it's all perfectly balanced, "danger" is a relative and subjective (as well as "ruin" something as we're still talking about pixels) and it's not about that, but about gain which is instead an absolute concept.

The attacker suffers the opportunity cost of not gaining anything i.e. not earning credits, not doing missions...

Danger is not "relative" at all, the attacker faces no danger whatsoever.
When was the last time someone in a G5 murder boat thought "Hmm, that T9 looks like it could kill me"? I'll tell you when, never.

Balance is when both sides have a real genuine risk of ending up on the rebuy screen.

And as a lot of people have limited game time, you certainly can ruin their game experience for that entire day.
It's about people's time they invest in playing a game to relax or have fun - and plenty of people do not find your style of play fun.

This whole "pixels on a screen" is disrespectful nonsense and you all know it, if it was just pixels on a screen then go play EVE or Start Citizen; they both are set up purely for PvP already. Why are you trying to turn Ed into a clone of those, if it's just Pixels on a screen? (and btw, I play both of those other games as well)

Does chess allow you to make pawns have double hit points, or fit bishops with faster legs? Can you move boards away from the advancing queen to a board that has no other pieces?

Adaption means compromise to fit the situation and you can't balance the game on the most vulnerable ships when you can literally change anything.

What a load of tripe. That shows you have no genuine counterpoints regarding a balanced game.
All you want is your advantages and bonuses with forced unarmed targets. As I've stated all along.

Might as well put you on block now, as you've nothing to add and I'll say something Robert will have to moderate, which wouldn't be fair to him.

 

[Jockey79]

Alright, I'll take your word for it.

The sheep asking the wolves how to protect themselves from the wolves rarely works out well for the sheep.

I'd suggest hitting Google hard for tips, tricks and suggestions. Perhaps head over to the Mobius forums as well, as some folks over there have some great defensive techniques for flying in Open Mode. You may even find someone who will fly with you to help you out while you get settled in.

I wish you all the best. o7

 

[Viajero]

Danger is not "relative" at all, the attacker faces no danger whatsoever.

We are still talking about Open, yes? Not sure if pointed out already but one of the attacker main risks and danger is obviously that of encountering opposing fighting ready players instead. It is a very considerable risk as many of those are likely much more dangerous than most NPC.

 

[Rubbernuke]

What a load of tripe. That shows you have no genuine counterpoints regarding a balanced game.
All you want is your advantages and bonuses with forced unarmed targets. As I've stated all along.

Might as well put you on block now, as you've nothing to add and I'll say something Robert will have to moderate, which wouldn't be fair to him.

? You compare a game that has fixed rules with fixed pieces to a game where you can change pieces (your ships), how they behave (modules), and where you play (as in, you can choose where you go and what you do).

You can't balance a game or expect fair outcomes when sometimes you are matched against something at a disadvantage. You mitigate that disparity using what you have and what you can do.