Personal take, I'd say the Flight Mechanics were good at launch (with my usual grumble about large Ships being generally able to overhaul/out-turn/out-perform the smaller ones except in very specific circumstances), till Engineers came along and then issues began to be come readily apparent due to the stat inflations it caused.
Open-Only in PP2.0?
- Thread starter August Lagrange
- Start date
I completely agree that the core flight mechanics are solid. There's no other space flight sim that offers such a satisfying experience. The real issue, though, lies in the balance management over time. In most live service games, you'd expect regular balance patches for ships and weapons, but in ElD, that has barely happened. The meta for ships has hardly been addressed, and the same goes for weapons. Some experimental effects or Powerplay weapons got nerfed due to complaints, losing their original purpose. Continuous balancing is essential to keep the game fresh and dynamic, especially when introducing new weapons, modules, and engineering options. When you introduce an advantage, there should be a corresponding counter implemented without making a given element obsolete or irrelevant.
Ironically too PvE answers are in game already, its just using them in the correct order or place.
Ah, yeah, well, we are both talking about different wider aspects that affect combat across the board, not just PP. Really this is something that is fundamental to design decisions taken even before release, and i don't see that changing ever.
I agree, and I think this is closely related to the overall issue. PvE has seen very few balance adjustments, both in terms of the variety of scenarios (you generally know exactly what to expect from a Threat 6 when you're dropping in) and the expansion of the PvE experience into the endgame. There's a lack of depth and progression that makes PvE feel a bit stale over time, especially compared to how dynamic it could be.
Its why when given context (with PP) its an excellent opportunity given its position.
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I was actually fairly on board with PvP with the 1.0 release. Unfortunately i spent most of the first year exploring instead of taking advantage of exploits or practicing combat or whatever, I was a poor boy. I only just earned my first 70 million or so by the end of that first year (not sure if you know, but exploration payouts were really low for a long time). By the time i started getting into combat, kitting out combat ships, the HP inflation had already started and PvP was developing from fast paced flight by the seat of your pants into a slug fest.
Once upon a time a Viper 3 could stand up to a big ship by dint of speed/agility even with way less firepower. Now? I'm not sure a Viper could even take down a big Elite NPC (Python or bigger) from a High CZ.... i'm sure someone could prove me wrong, but i bet it takes time.
Powerplay is really a separate layer in some ways that allows for change without disrupting the wider game- for example it has its own C+P and methods. While wider game changes would be good, it would also be more of a gamble.
It's still perfectly possible to do PvE or even PvP in a properly fitted and flown Cobra MKIII. Even today, you can hold your own against a wing of meta FDLs in a Cobra for long enough to either fight effectively or escape. However, it would be unrealistic to expect a large margin for success in those situations.
True, it can have its own mechanics to some level, but the things you were talking about would create a strange disconnect between how the regular game plays and PP plays.
I did specifically mention High CZs, and actually beating things in them, not just holding your own.
I see your point, but I think it’s still somewhat unrealistic to expect a ship like the Cobra MKIII to consistently win in High CZs, where the power gap and intensity is much more pronounced. It's more like taking a lightly armored, fast reconnaissance vehicle into a modern battlefield...it might be able to evade and survive for a while, but expecting it to outperform heavily armed tanks is a stretch. The Cobra can certainly hold its own for a time, but that kind of environment requires an advantage (to win easily) that it simply doesn’t have in terms of firepower, durability, or engineering.
That said, it’s definitely possible to complete and even win a CZ with a Cobra, but not in the same way you would approach it with a medium or large ship. You need to adapt your tactics significantly to take advantage of the Cobra’s strengths, focusing more on mobility and hit-and-run strategies rather than brute force or prolonged engagements
Not especially. For example, if you removed stations as end points and had hidden trader mechanics as drop offs, you'd solve nearly every issue via gameplay (as well as solve some Open issues too such as pad hogging).
It used to be that way though. You could go into a CZ in a small ship and have a lot of fun and win if you stuck to the edges and with your allies. Its probably still somewhat possible, but i think the fun element is gone, when you're hitting ships with everything you've got consistently for many seconds, only to see shields drop by 1% or something... and then it fires off a SCB.
Hmm... interesting idea.
It would literally be:
take off from station (like now)
travel (like now)
in target system drop to NAV and scan for rendezvous POI (first chance of NPC interaction)
Go to SC, NPCs might appear (based on metrics such as effort this cycle, chance) as you go to POI
Drop to POI, have to either deliver and repeat (like hidden trader), repel SC pursuit or have NPCs present defend (or wing buddies do it)
The PvE here is miles better, and that the T-9 / T-10 NPC drop is destructible. If it is lost, you scan for a new POI. Attackers in Open might have the end point as a reward bonus too.
All of that is miles better than the vapid identical A to B we have now with broken PvE.
I'm pretty sure it should be that hard when you're in a small ship without any other players backing you up. The difficulty level is intrinsic to the environment. High CZs are meant to challenge even larger and better equipped ships, so it makes sense that a small ship would struggle more.
On the flip side, with large, heavily engineered ships, the challenge in High CZs can feel insufficient. Once you reach a certain level of engineering, it often becomes more of a routine than a real test of skill, which also takes away some of the fun.
Whats needed is really what FD are moving away from, RNG.
I know exactly whats inside a USS, pirate lord build, assassination target, pirate- I also know SC pursuit numbers and ships.
What is needed past a certain point (i.e. past the top end now) is RNG builds and random wings of ships. Have then decked out with engineering and power modules.
That way, you can't anticipate anything and have to use your skills against an ever changing threat. For example a wing of four specced out Vipers or Sidewinders is going to be different to a pirate lord in a Corvette. Or that some days you'll come across a wing of NPC G5 Corvettes and have a bit of a kicking.
This is why Frontier really need to do a proper balance pass.
Engineers messed up the game, as they have an overly pronounced effect on the gameplay.
Small tweaks here and there are fine, but the current system makes massive changes to everything.
One of the things I've found to be the most hilarious around here is those complaining the NPCs are too easy and are flying G4+ everything ships.
Well of course they are too easy once you've started over-engineering everything. You really don't need to engineer at all, G1 is still an advantage over the AI ships.
But once you're in a G5 murderboat or even a G5 hauler or explorer - the NPCs are little more than an annoyance.
I've got a combat Sidewinder fully kitted out, that I use from time to time to mess about with in CZ's, Hi-Rez or do bounty missions in.
And to be honest, I shouldn't be able to take on the entire galaxy in a Sidewinder. I couldn't do that before Engineering came out.
In my personal opinion, after PP2.0 comes out, Fdev needs to rethink Engineers and the overall game balance.
I did BGS murder in unengineered Clippers with as powerful weapons as I could get off the shelf, and this included running away from ATR who could kill me in eight shots.
The problem isn’t the engineers themselves. They add longevity and variety to the game by allowing a huge number of combinations, which is something I think many players enjoy. However, the issue is that the Engineers are a feature that directly affects the difficulty and variety of the existing game content, which should be scaled accordingly. The introduction of powerful modifications should have been met with adjustments to NPCs, missions, and scenarios to maintain the challenge, but that didn’t happen as much as it should have.
A simple example is the recently added Python Mk2 and Type8 ship...not even NPCs are flying them yet XD