Open-Only in PP2.0?

[Robert Maynard]

Solo/PG players deliberately choose a gamemode which gives them an advantage in order to avoid opposition.

Unless, of course, they simply don't find PvP to be fun in a game where PvP is optional (due to other players being optional) so are exercising their freedom to choose not to play among those who would engage them in PvP while engaging in game features that were quite deliberately designed to be affected by players in all game modes, i.e. game features which don't require PvP.

You can work anonymously with the players you are opposing not being able to spot you, know who you are or what group you belong to, they do not know which actions you take, which could be inferred if they saw you in a Cutter or a Corvette, a Type 8 or a Krait, etc. And they can't stop you from doing it, while players who play in Open are subject to all of those things.

Same holds for the actions of players in Open from the perspective of the players in the other two game modes.

It obviously stands to reason then that the same actions performed in Solo shouldn't be worth the same as the actions performed in Open. Risk/Reward as a concept applied to videogames is a concept as old as videogames themselves. But you want to have your cake and eat it too

It may be obvious to those who prefer PvP and don't accept that PvP is not a required part of any in-game feature - however from a different perspective the players who choose Open want to play in Open and want to be given a special bonus for doing so because they can't force all players to play the same way as them - that seems more like wanting to have their cake (playing in their preferred game mode) while being given a bonus for doing so (cake).

 

[Doctor Dread]

I think being against incentives like this for Open is a good litmus test to determine who is and isn't against it simply because they don't want to let go of the advantage they have as it is right now, and any other arguments they give are probably just bad faith attempts at covering for the fact that they want to keep their current advantage.

And you are very welcome to use that advantage too.

Nah, you want to make other people play the game the way you like.

Very selfish and entitled.

 

[Nowski]

the idea of rewarding players who choose to partake in the gamemode that gives other players the opportunity to oppose them

Since everyone has access to the same choices and actions it follows that everyone has access to the same means of "opposing" other players - if by "opposing" you intend the obvious interpretation of "working against the powerplay goals and aims of the other players".

If you mean something else, you should probably spell out what that is. On the face of it the claim that only players in one particular mode are able to be "opposed" lacks any connection with the facts.

 

[Dragsham]

Alot of cmdrs who participated in pvp in elite are long gone.
Because they were banging their heads against a brick wall.
The decision to incentivise pvp via powerplay is on the table. Fdev have made that clear. It won't come at 2.0 rollout. But it may well come in the future.
Seems like fdev are changing their tact on this subject. cos for years any pvp related posts were herded into the 'hotel california'.
Oh how times change. Opinions change.
Guess we'll just have to wait n see.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

Two players committed to playing in different modes can't kill each other. An open player can't kill you if you're in solo, and neither can a solo player kill you if you're in open. It seems like equal opportunity non-killing to me.

And a player in Open can be killed and a player in Solo can't be killed. There is equal opportunity for choosing the gamemode in the start menu, but not once you're there.

Unless you think players should be "forced" (as you put it) into playing in the mode they don't want to play in.

The entire reason incentives for Powerplay in Open are being discussed instead of locking the entire gamemode into Open Only is precisely to not force players into the gamemode. It is a compromise that lets you do what you already can do and takes nothing away from you, but people here seem utterly unwilling to compromise. As far as I know, the party that is not willing to compromise in any level is usually the one that is uncooperative and not the other way around

As for the rest of your argument, it's very hard to distinguish penetrating psychological insight from projection, especially in oneself, and it only amounts to an ad-hominem anyway - not a form of argument that's worth responding to IMO.

Names of logical fallacies aren't magic words. Besides, this isn't a debate, at least not from my part, it is a discussion. In a debate all you care about is to win it, in a conversation you are open to change your mind and value the other party's input and maybe reach a middle ground. Of course it makes sense to call out rather hypocritical behavior as projection. It is PvPers who have been forced to partake in PvE activities if they want to participate in Powerplay and BGS for all these years, while it has never been the case for the other way around. And yet, it is PvPers who are accused of trying to force others to play the game their way. When an accusation is actually a confession of what you're already doing that is, in fact, projection

Not to mention that this wouldn't even be the case in the first place with Open Play incentives. It might ring true for locking the entire thing into Open Only but that isn't actually what I am talking about. All the arguments against Open Only people post here actually do make some sense, but none of them really apply to extra rewards and incentivized Open Play, yet it is opposed anyway. And that reveals the true reason they oppose it, which has absolutely nothing to do with being 'forced' to do anything, and has more to do with the fact they really enjoy the advantage they have and are not willing to lose it - while denying it exists in the first place.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Livin' it up at the Hotel California...

Find something else to talk about. It's been ten years.

 

[Dragsham]

Livin' it up at the Hotel California...

Find something else to talk about. It's been ten years.

Not when we're this close!!

 

[Nowski]

The entire reason incentives for Powerplay in Open are being discussed instead of locking the entire gamemode into Open Only is precisely to not force players into the gamemode.

When I said: "forced" (as you put it)

I was just pointing out the stretched semantics in your:

a player just doing hauling forces you to oppose him by doing hauling yourself.

Is this strictly true? That's the only thing you can do to oppose the powerplay activity of Solo haulers? At the very least that assumes a lot about how PowerPlay 2 will work at this stage I think.

Names of logical fallacies aren't magic words.

Ad-hom is just as unproductive in discussion (if not more) than in a formal debate (which quite evidenly we're not having here!) Your:

... The problem here is that this game's community on the forums equals player kills to griefing, because they are just that sensitive .. Deciat .. combat logging ...

is vastly over-generalised and pejorative (e.g. "just that over sensitive"), so is absolutely ad-hom. As these are not sentiments I've ever knowingly expressed, it's erroneously so at that. I'll continue to ignore it and the rest of your 'psychological analysis' of people you disagree with, thanks.

In fact, I haven't done PowerPlay at all beyond occasional module acquisition, and my interest in PowerPlay 2.0 is mostly in the design problem.

It seems to me that players are going to enjoy PvP or not, existing players have mostly already decided where they are on this, and assuming there's enough players that enjoy PvP the best thing PowerPlay 2.0 can do for them is make it quick and easy for them to find each other.

IMO, no amount of merit/rank inducement is going to significantly increase PvP numbers long term by drawing on those who've already decided it's not for them so that's simply a lost cause. Only if players find it fun to do will the numbers grow, and a big part of that is being able to find PvP opportunities quickly, preferably by using in-game tools.

Player engagement and enjoyment is good for the game, and I want the game to thrive because I love playing it. My honest opinion (believe it or not!) is that "re-balancing" PowerPlay to favour Open will reduce opportunities and enjoyment for the substantial number of players uninterested in that playstyle, and so negatively impact the game long-term.

It's better to spend the design/development effort in maximising opportunities for enjoyable play across all modes.

 

[Doctor Dread]

You still get to play Solo and participate in Powerplay in Solo with nobody forcing you into it. If that explanation has too many syllables for you to understand I am sorry but I am not responsible for any learning difficulties here. Maybe you need to take a course on English

OK, I will try slower and simpler this time:
If you think others have advantage in Solo, you are free to use it too.

Can you grasp this now?

 

[varonica]

OK, I will try slower and simpler this time:
If you think others have advantage in Solo, you are free to use it too.

Can you grasp this now?

Yeah it's really funny, people complaining about efficient use of time and resources refusing to use the most efficient method to achieve their aims, it's as if they are only focused on one single thing, oh yes that's right they are, PvP. They don't like hauling so the idea is to "encourage" all haulers into their target space, where the haulers can take part in gameplay they don't like!

 

[Doctor Dread]

Yeah it's really funny, people complaining about efficient use of time and resources refusing to use the most efficient method to achieve their aims, it's as if they are only focused on one single thing, oh yes that's right they are, PvP. They don't like hauling so the idea is to "encourage" all haulers into their target space, where the haulers can take part in gameplay they don't like!

Yep, as if they think only their way of playing is right and fun, and people should be enticed to all come and have great fun with them.

Oh, and interact in admiring each other's paint jobs - which would boost ARX sales, you hear FDevs?
(have to admit, this reasoning made me laugh out loud )

 

[Robert Maynard]

The entire reason incentives for Powerplay in Open are being discussed instead of locking the entire gamemode into Open Only is precisely to not force players into the gamemode. It is a compromise that lets you do what you already can do and takes nothing away from you, but people here seem utterly unwilling to compromise. As far as I know, the party that is not willing to compromise in any level is usually the one that is uncooperative and not the other way around

Yet the start of the thread anticipated Open only Powerplay 2.0, expecting the revamp of a base game feature to be retrospectively PvP-gated nearly ten years after launch - affecting the whole player-base to suit a subset (that don't really seem to accept that other players don't need to play with them to affect the game's mode shared features).

The fall-back position for those desiring Open only, a bonus for activities in Open, is not a compromise - it's a reduction in scope of demand from those who stand to gain. Those who stand to lose out would still lose out. Those who only stand to lose out are no in any way required to compromise with those who only stand to gain - especially as the latter offer nothing in return.

It is PvPers who have been forced to partake in PvE activities if they want to participate in Powerplay and BGS for all these years, while it has never been the case for the other way around.

What did those PvPers expect when they bought a game where PvE actions are the means to move the levers of any mode-shared game feature? They didn't buy a game where PvP is anything more than an optional extra that no player needs to engage in - and all players bought the game on the same basis, regardless of preference (or lack thereof) for PvP.

And yet, it is PvPers who are accused of trying to force others to play the game their way.

It's not an accusation - it's an observable fact, if one has engaged in these discussions for any length of time.

Not to mention that this wouldn't even be the case in the first place with Open Play incentives. It might ring true for locking the entire thing into Open Only but that isn't actually what I am talking about. All the arguments against Open Only people post here actually do make some sense, but none of them really apply to extra rewards and incentivized Open Play, yet it is opposed anyway. And that reveals the true reason they oppose it, which has absolutely nothing to do with being 'forced' to do anything, and has more to do with the fact they really enjoy the advantage they have and are not willing to lose it - while denying it exists in the first place.

A bonus for playing in one mode is functionally equivalent to a penalty for playing in either of the other two game modes. It would be seen as a bribe offered to attempt to coerce players to play in Open. Depending on the size of any bonus percentage it could also be seen as making the activities of those in Solo and Private Groups effectively worthless. Then there's the two Open mode / block feature combo to consider. If a bonus for playing in Open were offered it is entirely possible, over time, that players will manage to gain it while meeting no players - with a curated block list and caerful selection of which of the two Open modes to play in.

Talk of advantage is interesting - as it is the choice of each player at the beginning of each and every game session which game mode to play in. If players choose to select Open then any perceived disadvantage to their effects on the game by direct opposition from other players was just that - their choice, on the same level as which ship to fly, what role to outfit it for, what engineering to apply to it.

Players in all three game modes affect game features equally for each PvE action they complete. That some choose to play among other players who impede their progress is their choice and their choice alone.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Not when we're this close!!

Which seemed to be the perceived proximity to success among some PvPers back in 2016 and 2018. Noting Frontier's "not at launch" statement regarding Powerplay 2.0 Open only, and remembering the PS4 launch, where PSVR was also "not at launch" (and never implemented) or Odyssey launch where on-foot VR was also "not at launch" it will be interesting to see what transpires.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Do any of the OO crowd have actual data regarding how often their haulers reach their destination Vs how often they don't?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yeah it's really funny, people complaining about efficient use of time and resources refusing to use the most efficient method to achieve their aims, it's as if they are only focused on one single thing, oh yes that's right they are, PvP. They don't like hauling so the idea is to "encourage" all haulers into their target space, where the haulers can take part in gameplay they don't like!

Then why are people also arguing all modes are equal?

They don't like hauling

All of them haul though For example the morning of the cycle end I'd see Bard Voronwe whizz past just like everyone else or fill in places as required.

hey don't like hauling so the idea is to "encourage" all haulers into their target space, where the haulers can take part in gameplay they don't like!

Its why the debate is really now what rewards Open should have, given its been established its more difficult.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Do any of the OO crowd have actual data regarding how often their haulers reach their destination Vs how often they don't?

The best people to ask would be FUC or Winters, given they are a pure hauling power and the most combative.

 

[Rubbernuke]

A bonus for playing in one mode is functionally equivalent to a penalty for playing in either of the other two game modes.

So is a wing bonus a penalty for solo too?

 

[varonica]

Then why are people also arguing all modes are equal?


All of them haul though For example the morning of the cycle end I'd see Bard Voronwe whizz past just like everyone else or fill in places as required.


Its why the debate is really now what rewards Open should have, given its been established its more difficult.

The PvP'ers are arguing that it's easier and more efficient to haul in solo therefore solo players should be penalised, that's their argument not mine, talk to them! I don't know why, if they claim solo is more efficient, they don't just go and haul in solo, it's their hangup, don't expect me to understand it or explain it!

 

[Robert Maynard]

So is a wing bonus a penalty for solo too?

It can be considered to be one, yes. However it's not a bonus that is linked to playing in Open as it is available as a bonus for co-operative play in both multi-player game modes.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The PvP'ers are arguing that it's easier and more efficient to haul in solo therefore solo players should be penalised, that's their argument not mine, talk to them! I don't know why, if they claim solo is more efficient, they don't just go and haul in solo, it's their hangup, don't expect me to understand it or explain it!

There is a weird disconnect in that open is a hellscape of ganking killsquads while simultaneously not being dangerous enough to merit rewards