General Powerplay rebalancement: how to balance Open vs PG/Solo (without touching personal rewards).

[Bard Voronwe]

Hello!
With the last update (Ascendancy Update 1) it's become evident that Merits and Control Points are two different things: mertits have been multiplied by 4 for all acivities (and by 6 for exploration data) with the impact on the systems (aka: Control Points) staying basically the same.

Open Play is a far less effective mode than PG/Solo and that's a fact, player opposition will slow down considerably any effort in every mechanic, making basically PG/Solo Mode an advantage so big that we have even news about some communities historically devoted to Open Only switching to PG/Solo to be competitive in certain scenarios (and no, not Kumo, but this is not important now).

When in the past it's been proposed anything to be more rewarding for the singular player in Open, players usually in PG/Solo usually were not very fond of the idea of other players progressing faster because their mode of choice, but this proposal would NOT touch merits, hence the personal rewards.

I think that a modifier in Contro Points for actions done in Open Play would be a good comrpomise between people that do want to keep playing in PG/Solo for their personal progression and people that want more Open Play competition and most importantly for see the difficulties intrinsic in Open Play be rewarded at least in helping their Power of choice.

Nothing would change for the single player doing their thing. Powerlay might benefit with more player interactions and in general a better game experience for people chosing Open Play, with no differences for PG/Solo players.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Playing the game in any game mode is not just about personal progression but also about every player experiencing and affecting the uniquely shared galaxy - something that was sold to all players, regardless of their play-style preference.

For over a decade it has been obvious that some players can't accept that no other players need to play with them to affect mode shared game features. Reducing the effects of players in Solo and Private Groups on mode shared game features has long been on the wish list of those players - and would represent a penalty applied to some players simply because they choose not to play among other players - which would likely be seen as insulting by those adversely affected, if implemented.

Noting that other players are, and always have been, an optional extra in this game (whether or not each individual agrees with the game's design) that every player bought on the same terms, that fact does not seem to stop a subset of players who prefer an optional play-style from proposing that those who don't need to or choose to play with them should be penalised for doing so. The level of penalty usually proposed would make the effects of players in Solo and Private Groups somewhere between worth less and worthless in terms of their effect on mode shared game features.

For those for whom this appears to be a PvP game with a poor design it should be noted that, from a different perspective, it's a PvE game with entirely optional in-the-same-instance PvP (that no player needs to engage in).

Also noting that claims that "nothing would change for the single player doing their own thing" are demonstrably false - as the whole basis of the proposal is to reduce their infliuence on mode shared game features - that's a change.

Frontier have, of course, twice indicated that a bonus to Powerplay effect of actions conducted in Open was a possibility (noting that it was clearly stated that Powerplay was the only game feature even being considered for such a bonus), firstly in March'16 and most recently in May'18. It is interesting, but possibly unsurprising, that they don't seem to have made such a change during the rework of Powerplay into Powerplay 2.0 some six years after the last mention - as every player was awaiting the rework of the (initially unspecified) game feature, whether those players enjoy PvP or not.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Frontier have, of course, twice indicated that a bonus to Powerplay effect of actions conducted in Open was a possibility (noting that it was clearly stated that Powerplay was the only game feature even being considered for such a bonus), firstly in March'16 and most recently in May'18. It is interesting, but possibly unsurprising, that they don't seem to have made such a change during the rework of Powerplay into Powerplay 2.0 some six years after the last mention - as every player was awaiting the rework of the (initially unspecified) game feature, whether those players enjoy PvP or not.

You forget it's been mentioned in one of the last Frontier Unlocked too.
I know you are not a big fan and probably spend most of your time scouting the forums for anybody asking for balancing the different modes with the same copy/paste answers, bu you know... we will never stop asking and giving feedback considering the game as it is, instead of repeating how things have been until now.
Yes, we know how things has always been. But they might change too.
So: merits can stay the same. People are happy.
Control Points change. The game is more balanced and fair.
Only people unhappy with that are the ones that are taking a clear advantage on PG/Solo over Open. But you say a balancement it's not needed so... the two things clearly deny each other.
Keep the advantage for PG/Solo without balancing to Open?
Something being Optional as you say doesn't mean it should not be balanced.

 

[DemiserofD]

Hello!
With the last update (Ascendancy Update 1) it's become evident that Merits and Control Points are two different things: mertits have been multiplied by 4 for all acivities (and by 6 for exploration data) with the impact on the systems (aka: Control Points) staying basically the same.

Open Play is a far less effective mode than PG/Solo and that's a fact, player opposition will slow down considerably any effort in every mechanic, making basically PG/Solo Mode an advantage so big that we have even news about some communities historically devoted to Open Only switching to PG/Solo to be competitive in certain scenarios (and no, not Kumo, but this is not important now).

When in the past it's been proposed anything to be more rewarding for the singular player in Open, players usually in PG/Solo usually were not very fond of the idea of other players progressing faster because their mode of choice, but this proposal would NOT touch merits, hence the personal rewards.

I think that a modifier in Contro Points for actions done in Open Play would be a good comrpomise between people that do want to keep playing in PG/Solo for their personal progression and people that want more Open Play competition and most importantly for see the difficulties intrinsic in Open Play be rewarded at least in helping their Power of choice.

Nothing would change for the single player doing their thing. Powerlay might benefit with more player interactions and in general a better game experience for people chosing Open Play, with no differences for PG/Solo players.

The question I'd focus on is, 'what would this ACTUALLY achieve'? In the majority of cases, playing in open leads to no real difference in gameplay experience. While I'm mining, for example, 99% of my time would see no impact.

The only real effect would be that all activities would be functionally gatekept by pvp; if someone could just guard ONE station, they could block out all other activities. Which is fun for the pvpers, I'll grant you, but not so much for everyone else. More than that, we actually have an example of what happens when an activity can be gatekept by one very good player; MUSKETEER has singlehandedly killed CQC by killing everyone who tries to do it.

Now, I'm not actually against this sort of thing - IN SPECIFIC CASES. Stronghold Carriers, for example, should probably only be attackable in Open, or at least there should be a merit bonus for that, because doing so does actually introduce a constant risk of pvp, not just for 1% of your time.

But never as a broad-spectrum thing.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

The question I'd focus on is, 'what would this ACTUALLY achieve'? In the majority of cases, playing in open leads to no real difference in gameplay experience. While I'm mining, for example, 99% of my time would see no impact.

The only real effect would be that all activities would be functionally gatekept by pvp; if someone could just guard ONE station, they could block out all other activities. Which is fun for the pvpers, I'll grant you, but not so much for everyone else. More than that, we actually have an example of what happens when an activity can be gatekept by one very good player; MUSKETEER has singlehandedly killed CQC by killing everyone who tries to do it.

Now, I'm not actually against this sort of thing - IN SPECIFIC CASES. Stronghold Carriers, for example, should probably only be attackable in Open, or at least there should be a merit bonus for that, because doing so does actually introduce a constant risk of pvp, not just for 1% of your time.

But never as a broad-spectrum thing.

You see we are not talking about OPEN ONLY now, we're talking about giving more CONTROL POINTS (not merits) for actions done in Open. If a player want really really really access to that station then he could go in PG/Solo, or try his fortune by evading the opposers (you know, Open is optional after all, so you would have a choice if you want REALLY go there). But I think that if you manage to stay Open and avoid the opposers you should be granted a bonus in Control Points.

Because, as you just said, these tings could happen in Open Play, where you can't choose the players you instance with. It's more difficult. Should be rewarded in some way.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Open Play is a far less effective mode than PG/Solo and that's a fact

Solo is a far less effective mode than Open/PG due to the fact that in Solo you can't wing up.

Winging up provides massive advantages is almost all areas of the game and makes the game safer in general. They really should be called Easy Mode 1 and Easy Mode 2, while Solo should be called Hardcore Mode.

Wing bonuses, combined firepower, and even, for example, going wing exploring for scanning life, 4 pairs of eyes are better than 1, enabling finding lifeforms to scan much quicker.

Therefore I propose bonus rewards for people playing in solo. Its only fair, right?

Now here's Smashy and Nicey with today's hot song!

On a dark desert highway...

 

[something]

Lord Braben sold me the game by stating that I can make things go wrong for other people. In fact he reiterated that point of view for Odyssey which Powerplay 2.0 is a part of.
So I bought the game, solely because I can make things go wrong for other people. Which means, taking that opportunity away from me is defrauding me of my gameplay experience that I have been promised - simply because other people do not like what was sold to them, didn't bother to read the fine print, or whichever way you wanna frame this.
Consequently, actions performed in solo or private groups should never have had any effect on the shared galaxy.

Being the generous and humble being I am, (in fact being humble is one of my greatest skills) I am, however, willing to grant a token of generosity to those people who are unable to fathom the vision of Lord Braben. Let merits generated in Solo or Private Group count towards unlocking items and ranks, but do not let those merits count towards system control (or lack thereof). This way everybody can experience the game as Lord Braben himself envisioned it.


Source

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_3opaV-cOE

 

[DemiserofD]

If a player want really really really access to that station then he could go in PG/Solo, or try his fortune by evading the opposers

Right; like I said, gatekept by pvp, for an activity that is 99% not pvp.

A rough analogue would be if each pvp kill didn't actually give you any merits, it just unlocked a few hundred tons of merits per kill, which you then would need to haul from your stronghold system to your desired location in solo to actually get any merits. Not fun, not what pvpers actually want to do.

That's the problem with gatekeeping one activity behind another activity.

 

[angusmadmac1]

But does that mean if you meet no other opposition those extra points will be removed ??
As I have said in the past Open is not truly open it's infact a best instance for you ( best being a relative meaning ). Can you imagine what it would take for Open play to be literally Open .
And then you have two opens EDO and 4.0 and never the twain shall meet . So what now ??
Just because you don't see anyone in your open instance doesn't mean automatically they are in solo or PG or even in your timezone .

 

[Ian Doncaster]

player opposition will slow down considerably any effort in every mechanic,

For a lot of Powerplay, I'm not sure this is really the case.

1) I've been playing Powerplay in Open since PP2 launched doing a mix of undermining, reinforcement and acquisition, and the number of times any player tried to stop me remains zero. (I've seen slightly more than that in terms of friendly players, and people from other powers collecting rares in the same place but with nothing to gain there by fighting ... and one enemy player who might have been able to do something if they hadn't been docked at the station and possibly AFK)

2) A lot of Powerplay actions pay out merits immediately, so killing someone who is doing them barely slows them down. Say you're in a Power CZ in an Acquisition System, and there's someone with the stereotypical 15-minute-shield big ship systematically working through NPCs on the other side. If you kill them - with them largely ignoring you as you do - it takes you 15 minutes, for which you get 200 merits. In that time they've killed several NPCs and got thousands of merits, and then they respawn with free rebuy and head straight back to carry on.. If you ignore them and take out their NPCs instead you also get thousands of merits.

for actions done in Open Play

This is also impossible to meaningfully enforce. In Powerplay 1, sure, easy. Powerplay 2 has been designed in such a way to make it impossible.

You're trying to protect a system from Undermining - and it happens to have 20 Odyssey settlements.
A player in Solo flies up to one of those settlements, relogs to Open, does a short supercruise hop to reset the loot ... even if you get lucky and both notice the low wake and realise it needs checking out, they've already looted the place and put it aboard their ship. You blow up their ship, which is still a sitting duck on the ground, and carpet bomb the settlement with dumbfires for good measure ... and their rebuy gets paid, and they can safely fly in Open to wherever they need to hand the loot in, because killing them again won't destroy it.

A player in Solo flies into your targeted system and drops out of supercruise in a random location.
They then relog to Open, see what Powerplay enemies show up in deep space, kill them, and relog to Open again. Once they've had enough or run out of ammunition, they hyperspace out.
You never had any chance at all to intercept them, but all merits were earned in Open.
(They could even enter in Open, SCO boost in a random direction, drop, and immediately log out. How long are you going to spend sitting in normal space hundreds of thousands of Ls away from the star in the hope that they didn't just log off for the night / relog to Solo to exit the system then relog to Open to get past your blockade / etc?)

There's a few activities - some of the cargo-hauling ones - where you could perhaps put up a meaningful blockade to them. But not many.

It's all nice and fun for people who want to play by the spirit as well as the letter of the rules ... but they're already in Open anyway.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Lord Braben sold me the game by stating that I can make things go wrong for other people.

You can, if they are playing in Open, which apparently most players do according to FD.

Lord Braben also sold you a game with modes, which either you presumably were accepting of when you made the purchase or you didn't do your research before buying.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You forget it's been mentioned in one of the last Frontier Unlocked too.
I know you are not a big fan and probably spend most of your time scouting the forums for anybody asking for balancing the different modes with the same copy/paste answers, bu you know... we will never stop asking and giving feedback considering the game as it is, instead of repeating how things have been until now.
Yes, we know how things has always been. But they might change too.
So: merits can stay the same. People are happy.
Control Points change. The game is more balanced and fair.
Only people unhappy with that are the ones that are taking a clear advantage on PG/Solo over Open. But you say a balancement it's not needed so... the two things clearly deny each other.
Keep the advantage for PG/Solo without balancing to Open?
Something being Optional as you say doesn't mean it should not be balanced.

Arf did indeed mention "Open only" as a parting shot in a recent Frontier Unlocked. That it was assumed to apply to Powerplay (when Arf knew about the Colonisation feature even if we didn't) is clear. Therefore while the context appeared to be clear from the perspective of the audience, it may not have been quite so clear cut.

The claim that "Open Play is a far less effective mode than PG/Solo and that's a fact, player opposition will slow down considerably any effort in every mechanic" is open to question / challenge - as players may not actually meet any player opposition due to several factors, with two major ones being: "which of the two Open modes are they in?" and "where in the world are they and how good an internet connection do they have?". So Open may be less effective, if one meets a player, that player is hostile, and the player is in a ship that actually poses a threat - it's not a case of Open making one less effective all the time.

Let's discuss quantum - what sort of percentage bonus to Open / penalty to Solo and Private Groups is seen to be acceptable by those seeking change?

 

[angusmadmac1]

I don't think any to be truthful ?
You could argue if there is a opposition player interaction and you win you could get a bonus and the losing player also gets a smaller bonus ?
But if there is no interaction then no bonus ?
This would be called the "danger "bonus ???

 

[SteveWW57]

But I think that if you manage to stay Open and avoid the opposers you should be granted a bonus in Control Points.

Only if you do meet opposition (open to abuse) or all the time whether you meet opposition or not?

 

[DemiserofD]

Again, Stronghold Carriers are the obvious place for this. Perfect place for pvp to happen.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Consequently, actions performed in solo or private groups should never have had any effect on the shared galaxy.

In the opinion of some, who can't accept the design of the game that we all bought, i.e. it does not provide targets for players who enjoy PvP as the targets don't need to choose to play in Open among those who would engage them in PvP, certainly.

 

[Gabriel H]

I think there is a debate to be had about control points and Solo play, but it needs to be an honest and informed conversation.

Advantages of Solo play: No PvP
Disadvantages of Solo play: No Wings

The reverse is true of Open:

Advantages of Open play: Wings
Disadvantages of Open play: PvP

So, what it the overall effect of that? Is it even measurable?

And then there is the "interference" issue between the two modes. Yes, someone in Solo can get past all your player ships and do something, but unless you are awake and playing 24/7 the same is true in Open.

Now for the crux point: Why should Open play have primacy? Why is the argument: "It's not fair that someone in Solo is impacting all our work" and not "It's not fair a wing in Open is ruining all the work I'm doing in Solo!" - and yes there is a deliberate choice in my wording there, becasue a wing in open can affect the galaxy far more than someone in Solo.

 

[Darrack]

Oh boy not another Open only thread

O7

 

[Gabriel H]

You can, if they are playing in Open, which apparently most players do according to FD.

Lord Braben also sold you a game with modes, which either you presumably were accepting of when you made the purchase or you didn't do your research before buying.

And lest we forget the original backers of the game were told, right up until the last minute, that it was solo only.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Oh boy not another Open only thread

O7

Such a lovely place