Powerplay Should we be Afraid of the prismatic princess?
- Thread starter Anders Seclusive
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The primary HQ stronghold of a Power is unassailable though. The most we could do is surround it - assuming the coalition which undertakes such an effort even lasts
If the Cobalt Calamity was such a threat other powers should attack, including other Imperials. Sadly they don't, because PP has always favoured stability over confrontation.
Hopefully as the Pantone Princess expands outwards toes will be stepped on, and not suppressed by ZYADA by allowing horse trading.
Hopefully as the Pantone Princess expands outwards toes will be stepped on, and not suppressed by ZYADA by allowing horse trading.
I think it's fair to say that surrounding a Power HQ entirely would have one of two effects:
1) If it happened while there were still a significant number of players attempting to resist, there would likely be some rebalancing of Reinforcement vs Undermining needed to allow Powers to reinforce their closest-to-HQ systems much more easily - though I would hope that Frontier could see it coming and do that before it got to that stage (and it feels highly unlikely on the current balance that any attack would get that far)
2) If it happened because no-one much was actually trying to stop it, that would probably be a good point for Frontier to acknowledge the defeat, and replace the Power with a new one (perhaps a new one offering a rare defection opportunity: defect to us before <date> and keep your rank; perhaps again a new one chosen by some sort of public vote to give it a bit of a starter support base)
1) If it happened while there were still a significant number of players attempting to resist, there would likely be some rebalancing of Reinforcement vs Undermining needed to allow Powers to reinforce their closest-to-HQ systems much more easily - though I would hope that Frontier could see it coming and do that before it got to that stage (and it feels highly unlikely on the current balance that any attack would get that far)
2) If it happened because no-one much was actually trying to stop it, that would probably be a good point for Frontier to acknowledge the defeat, and replace the Power with a new one (perhaps a new one offering a rare defection opportunity: defect to us before <date> and keep your rank; perhaps again a new one chosen by some sort of public vote to give it a bit of a starter support base)
At the moment the balance very much favours Reinforcement and Acquisition ... the question is whether people will move to more Undermining once the easy-to-get space runs out?
Again depends on the balancing and incentives more so than what even large player groups do - if non-centralised PP activity is mostly Reinforcement, then the Undermining is too dependent on the big groups, who'll want an easy life where they only start one war at once, probably with the Federation. If non-centralised activity is mostly Undermining then trying to keep that sort of multi-way peace treaty together becomes impossible.
I do have serious doubts on whether Aisling (or Mahon for that matter) can hold on to their >1,000+ (each) systems currently under their sway. PP 2.0 is a lot more dynamic & unpredictable than PP 1.0 plus a sizable number of players are playing independently from the established organized PP groups.
Coordination will be a big challenge, to say the least.
Coordination will be a big challenge, to say the least.
I heard that some "emergent" groups are not liking the inherited PP 1.0 alliance(s) at all... as [leaving for a moment aside the lore] those are one of the reasons (if not the main one) which resulted in making PP 1.0 a stalemate [with the exception of few big turmoils and scraps for all three superpowers] and finally led to the puppetisation of other minor powers.
Moreover, given the way merits are earned in PP 2.0 + decentralisation of leadership + presence of so called "rogue groups", makes a really hard task to keep "alliances" running without struggles... and the more the space gets clogged, the harder it will be (and the lesser are the benefits of "alliances").
PP 2.0 is: not my pledge = enemy.
Yes - though on the other hand, with there (rightly) being no direct penalty for owning a system, it doesn't matter whether you have 100 or 10,000 systems if the other side is only able to seriously attack one at once anyway.
I noticed a Duval system getting some serious undermining on Sunday morning knocking it down from Fortified to Exploited. By Sunday evening Duval's teams had noticed that too (it was pretty obvious from the map filters) and started evening the numbers out; by Monday evening it was up to even; I expect by the end of the week it'll end up stronger than it was. Will the underminers be able to switch target quickly enough to use that as a distraction to knock something else out instead? Probably not.
If all the independent players are mostly Reinforcing - better paid, you get to use your Power's bonuses, generally easier activities and a lot more "just playing the game" activities - that doesn't really shake things up much. But you can't in most circumstances hope to undermine more than the occasional weak Exploited system on your own (or even with a few friends) because the merit requirements to do so are (necessarily!) huge.
What there really needs to be is a flip of it so that the average player gets rewarded much more for Undermining, and so any border system becomes a constant Undermining target: even if it's only getting 1000 merits a week, someone still needs to deliberately counter that in the long term or it all adds up to make a deliberate strike much easier.
Ian was faster, but I pretty much agree. There's no upkeep or decay, so systems will stay in control as a default. At least the coordinated parts of pledged players will be able to see attacks and can counteract.
Since it's all about merits, the higher player numbers will eventually prevail. The more pledged players a Power has, the lower the average merits/week/player will probably be, but I don't see that being too much of a factor.
Since it's all about merits, the higher player numbers will eventually prevail. The more pledged players a Power has, the lower the average merits/week/player will probably be, but I don't see that being too much of a factor.
It will be interesting to see whether any dynamics emerge from the different powers, how they treat enemy players, will some powers show statistically that they are more hostile than others? I've decided to only attack other human players if they are enemy|wanted and not to be overtly hostile towards enemies in my system other than the NPC's of course.
I did interdict someone for no other reason than their being an enemy, and asked them what they were doing in the system, then when I saw them again I interdicted and tried to initiate conversation before firing some warning shots, the next time they disconnected. I took that to mean that it was either really annoying them else they were terrified, and as such will not bother doing it again. Preferring only going after them when they have blatantly done something to undermine and are wanted.
I was considering starting a thread that investigates Powerplay etiquette; Will some powers prove to be more diplomatic than others, I wonder?
I did interdict someone for no other reason than their being an enemy, and asked them what they were doing in the system, then when I saw them again I interdicted and tried to initiate conversation before firing some warning shots, the next time they disconnected. I took that to mean that it was either really annoying them else they were terrified, and as such will not bother doing it again. Preferring only going after them when they have blatantly done something to undermine and are wanted.
I was considering starting a thread that investigates Powerplay etiquette; Will some powers prove to be more diplomatic than others, I wonder?
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Hehe! I was kinda' thinking that those who adhere to the doctrine of the pirate accountant, might well be more interested by the kill count than how the other fella was enjoying their game; This adds some superb nuance, if it does play out this way, which is all the better for the game! A win win situation.
you mean the people PLAYING THE GAME?
If there's one thing about PP2.0 that's great, it's that it's no longer at the whim of whoever has the biggest discord server to dictate what the power does.
'diplomacy' in PP 2 should be like WWE.
Less words, more chairs to the head.
Less words, more chairs to the head.
Playing the game and disrespecting organized communities (that are also the actual core that keeps PP alive long term) and the effort they put into it, yes. You're right there is nothing mechanical stopping them from it, and FDev ultimately decides what the game is through mechanics. However, let's not ignore that a good chunk of people want to be organized and respect diplomatic ties and how the communities drive the game. Powerplay, in principle, is supposed to be about communities driving the game, isn't it? There was a time where it was even supposed to drive narrative but FDev chose to ignore that and make the lore whatever they want it to be regardless of what happens in PP anyway.
What bothers me is that the actual mechanics design of PP2 is at odds (and arguably way worse than PP1) with what I'd think PP is supposed to be: a community effort of playing together. It starts on a small scale already. Because of weekly assignments forcing you into specific systems, just playing together with a friend is actively discouraged. People and friends one would like to play with that happen to be in other powers can barely be teamed up with anymore. The terrible UI actively discouraging any attempts at strategy doesn't help either. Allowing communities to develop their own tools - what the heck even is journal support - don't we dare try to make better tools.
On one hand, they want the game mode to be a community endeavor, on the other, they take every possible means to make people do stuff on their own and be oblivious/hostile to other players. It's silly.
For my part, I still continue to believe in the time and effort that organized communities have put into this game for many years and many hours of gameplay and diplomacy. It does feel like a fight against FDev design rather than other powers at times but we will see how it goes in the long run. If the new form of "5c" that appears to be on the rise already by trying to manipulate powers into fighting each other and just wanting to disrupt organization and create diplomatic chaos is going to end up being the winning philosophy of that, then so be it. I just don't think it will be healthy and ultimately cause PP to lose its soul by turning it into an individual careless merit grinding fiesta.
PP1 was ironically the same concept just poorly implemented- the unguided majority doing the right thing. The problem was the system was easily gamed and that because so few played it 5C had outsized disruptive effects.
From this sprouted a need to work together to fight 5C, which led to SCRAP which sapped the desire to fight because each week you fought yourself, essentially.
You (and quite frankly is a common error) are mistaken in the scope of PP- its a community effort between rival communities. Whats happened over time is that only a few powers ever fought, and that instead you have / had power blocs like ZYADA and FUC (and now KALE too I suppose) which dampen fighting.
Back when I was with Utopia I manged the Reddit, help set up the Discord, worked behind the scenes in organisation, and if I was still there I'd not be unhappy the direction Powerplay has taken.
This situation is doubly ironic because Aisling went through a period of internal squabbling early on with two large groups IIRC and was closest to what PP1 was intended to run like.
Yes, I will absolutely disrespect the "organised communities" dictating how individual players get to play in a game where the tagline is literally "blaze your own trail".
In PP1.0 a single player couldn't get anything done without going through the council. Now individuals and groups are free to push small parts of their power as they see fit without permission from anyone.
PP1 needed organisation because one wrong move crippled a power, and late cycle PP1 was a sea of bad moves.
Indeed. If PP2 had kept PP1's "you either follow the party line or you end up damaging your own power" design I'd have headed back to Colonia in July.
I joined the Kaine Discord to see what it was like.
After a couple of weeks it became very clear that the management had too much intent to be "diplomatic" and "sensible" and "not get us into wars we can't win" and "not give Mahon a well-deserved beating" and all that stuff.
So I left again - no hard feelings, I understand why they want to play it that way and I hope they have fun with it ... but it clearly wasn't the community for me.
But I'm still pledged to Kaine and happily reinforcing and acquiring and undermining systems on her behalf. Some of the time they might even be the same systems that the Kaine Discord is working on, for all I know.
There's only 12 Powers. There are far more than 12 communities in Elite Dangerous, never mind disorganised independents like me whose inclination to either take or give orders is minimal. It's not a bug that communities #13, #14, and #276 can also pledge to a Power and try to push their vision on it.
I joined the Kaine Discord to see what it was like.
After a couple of weeks it became very clear that the management had too much intent to be "diplomatic" and "sensible" and "not get us into wars we can't win" and "not give Mahon a well-deserved beating" and all that stuff.
So I left again - no hard feelings, I understand why they want to play it that way and I hope they have fun with it ... but it clearly wasn't the community for me.
But I'm still pledged to Kaine and happily reinforcing and acquiring and undermining systems on her behalf. Some of the time they might even be the same systems that the Kaine Discord is working on, for all I know.
There's only 12 Powers. There are far more than 12 communities in Elite Dangerous, never mind disorganised independents like me whose inclination to either take or give orders is minimal. It's not a bug that communities #13, #14, and #276 can also pledge to a Power and try to push their vision on it.
Same here, but on the Mahon side of the equation. I didn't even try to join their discord since I figured it would take them a while to shed the hard learned constraints of PP 1.0
The intense battle for control of Leesti in Cycle 1 was very instructive though now (based on your observations of the Kaine discord) it looks like much of the undermining of that critical Mahon stronghold was done by independent players unhappy with Mahon specifically.
Yes, that certainly wasn't them. I don't even know if it was Kaine pledges looking for a convenient target close to Tionisla, or just a really big pile of attacks of opportunity around the rares trade coming from everyone non-local - probably a bit of both.
And Orrere, I strongly suspect, was something else yet again.