Problems with permanent "System Architect" Status

[aRJay]

How about a compromise.

Allow the System Architect the option to mark a system complete so that it then cannot be changed by anyone other than FDev, systems not marked complete can be altered by the architect later and would be available for change by anyone allowed to step into the architects shoes.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

How about a compromise.

Allow the System Architect the option to mark a system complete so that it then cannot be changed by anyone other than FDev, systems not marked complete can be altered by the architect later and would be available for change by anyone allowed to step into the architects shoes.

 

[Mr Lindsay]

Then there are the situations presented by the OP. It doesn't matter that there are 400B systems out there when your colonisation efforts are dead in their tracks because of a single member leaving.

But the OP is nonsense in this regard, as has been explained multiple times throughout this thread.

From what has been described, the worst that can happen after a single person leaves is that a 'key-stone' system that is needed to reach further systems due to the XX Ly expansion limit is incomplete. After 4 weeks this will revert and another player can complete it.

I think even this is an over-statement of the situation, as it sounds like even if the player abandoned the game in the 4 week period, other players could still complete their station if they were in a genuine hurry to use it as a stepping stone, so they only have to wait the full 4 weeks if they aren't willing to contribute to help complete it.

 

[Cosmo]

How about a compromise.

Allow the System Architect the option to mark a system complete so that it then cannot be changed by anyone other than FDev, systems not marked complete can be altered by the architect later and would be available for change by anyone allowed to step into the architects shoes.

And the option "abandon" if the Architect doesn't want to develop it anymore. Then someone else could claim it. Caveat could be that the present facilities cannot be removed by the next architect.

 

[Nosrik]

How about a compromise.

Allow the System Architect the option to mark a system complete so that it then cannot be changed by anyone other than FDev, systems not marked complete can be altered by the architect later and would be available for change by anyone allowed to step into the architects shoes.

Do you actually think anyone could convice Frontier to do a "compromise" ? There may be some aspect of colonisation which are not set in stone yet*, but this one is imo very unlikely to change.

*and even for them, I think possibles changes would come from Frontier themselves and not player feedback

 

[Robert Maynard]

We went over the number a few pages back I think.... it's not 400B. It's whichever number of systems is in the shell defined by the colonisation range and size of the current bubble. Still huge but not all of it .

Still miniscule then - and lessening with every colonised system adding it's own group of colonisable systems within range as the bubbles expand.

But that's not even the point here, the point is, players will naturally congregate towards interesting areas of the galaxy. Black holes, ELWs, guardian sites or staging areas for Thargoid homeworld invasion (when we get there ). Then there are the situations presented by the OP. It doesn't matter that there are 400B systems out there when your colonisation efforts are dead in their tracks because of a single member leaving.

How, exactly, are "your colonisation efforts are dead in their tracks because of a single member leaving" when Colonisation is a personal rather than group feature and where any already colonised system can be used as the jumpoff point for future colonisation?

Yes worse.

In my (albeit exaggerated) example, that Conda makes a run for that colonized bubble precisely because the GAME's galaxy map tells it that there's civilisation there. If those systems would be uninhabited, then the CMDR would know better.

Just because a system is colonised does not mean that it needs to have large pads - arguably not having large pads is an interesting outcome as it would impede those who want to take over the system using large ships to gain influence for a particular Faction.

Imagine if Bligh made the trip all the way to Coupang only to be told: "ze boat does not fit at ze dock, you must go back to England".

... or just sunk with all hands by locals disinterested with visitors.....

Don't know what to tell you... it's just each man's definition of selfishness I suppose...

Option 1: Putting a single outpost in a system only so that others can't play there.
Option 2: Expanding on the work of another CMDR without taking away anything that they have built, to allow expanding economies, more trade routes, more missions, more opportunities, more gameplay for more players.

As pointed out earlier Option 2 can be considered to be vandalism of the System Architect's vision for the system by people who think they know better.

.... and if there's a single outpost then that's a starting point for the disappointed to initiate their own colony from.

The name of the feature is colonisation, not ownership.

It is indeed - with a sole System Architect in charge of the development of each system.

 

[Anticon]

"Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor, and Saint, and heard great argument
About it and about,
But evermore came out by that same door as in I went".
Rubaiyyat of Omar Khayyam, Fitzgerald trans.
Could have been written for today, right here.
This thread also reminds me of Bishop Ussher, calculating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. We don't even have the pin yet.

 

[Weps]

But the OP is nonsense in this regard, as has been explained multiple times throughout this thread.

From what has been described, the worst that can happen after a single person leaves is that a 'key-stone' system that is needed to reach further systems due to the XX Ly expansion limit is incomplete. After 4 weeks this will revert and another player can complete it.

I don't understand why it's nonsense... unless you're referring only of the initial starport.

The initial starport is not the problem here. Setting up a complex economy made up of many installations is.

FDEV have touched on several key points in their streams, and usually when they make a point of something, it's because it has a certain importance in the gameplay feature they are designing:

• building mini-bubbles along a colonisation path, to support further development / the logistical issue of commodities to drive colonisation further
• installations playing a role in the economies / output commodities of that system
• some systems being more valuable than others (by the amount of slots for installations, which economies they can support etc.)

We don't know just how much emphasis will be put on these aspects. We don't know yet how complex the task will become, when a player / group choose to leverage the full potential of a good system, if there will be certain dependencies, a build order etc. etc. But nevertheless, if what FDEV said materialises into gameplay, than the concern that you could lose months of effort midway (because of the architect leaving) becomes valid. Finding a similar system in the immediate vicinity (with the number of slots, the composition of planets, the sizes etc.) might not be so easy. Not to mention the sunken costs or the new costs of getting there, the change to the colonisation path geometry etc.

I don't think it's nonsense.

 

[Tifu]

We don't know just how much emphasis will be put on these aspects. We don't know yet how complex the task will become, when a player / group choose to leverage the full potential of a good system, if there will be certain dependencies, a build order etc. etc. But nevertheless, if what FDEV said materialises into gameplay, than the concern that you could lose months of effort midway (because of the architect leaving) becomes valid.

I don't think it's nonsense either. An RL crisis could easily sideline a system architect for an extended period or (knock on wood) permanently.

 

[aRJay]

Do you actually think anyone could convice Frontier to do a "compromise" ? There may be some aspect of colonisation which are not set in stone yet*, but this one is imo very unlikely to change.

*and even for them, I think possibles changes would come from Frontier themselves and not player feedback

No, but I hoped to delay the threads inevitable descent into armed camps saying nothing of interest anymore just that the others are wrong.

Only slightly less futile but still.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

How, exactly, are "your colonisation efforts are dead in their tracks because of a single member leaving" when Colonisation is a personal rather than group feature and where any already colonised system can be used as the jumpoff point for future colonisation?

I suspect they mean building a system they can farm rather than a link in the daisy chain.

 

[Semivivus]

You could have written almost this exact post with just a couple of word changes had PMFs never been introduced at all, and player groups just stuck to adopting NPC factions.

Creating own player faction as opposed to adopting an NPC one is where lies the massive difference. There are certain characteristics and distinct advantages that make a tailored player faction far more appealing among which are a unique faction name, location, theme, lore and art that follow, and naturally the unifying idea behind it. There is a reason why Aisling Duval has always been a popular pledge option - a successful combination of visual design, compelling character traits and thematic elements that just click with people. Now let´s replace the PowerPlay characters with generic station NPCs with lore à la "I used to fly package tours for HIP 123456". The appeal of a hypothetical "Segoveduwa Empire Party" would be confined to the squadron leader that chose to support it, with its only lore being a tenuous connection to that leader´s lineage as part of the Segoveduwa dynasty of algae farmers spanning 5 generations. You could probably scour the neighbourhood and find 5 like-minded individuals likely drawn in only due to personal connection to the PMF leader, but good luck recruiting other players on these grounds. One could come up with a few exceptions (hypothetical as well as existing), but there would have been much less of these cases threatening the passage for regular NPC factions into the Black had PMFs never existed.

In other words, all the superficial attributes that make a potential unassuming weekend-warrior player turn their neck and consider joining, as well as creating additional motivation for members to work for that faction. Not to mention the usual community dynamics, history and drama built on that foundation, which would only spiral any given squadron involved upwards. An adopted NPC faction is far less likely to generate the same level of momentum, allowing more time for the rest of the NPC factions to squeeze through the main expansion front into the Black.


On top of that, the issue I am highlightning is not entirely with the rabid expansion of large PMFs (which is business as usual) but with no NPC factions ever reaching the edge of inhabited space to be available as pioneering colonisation factions in any system because of that activity - leaving the leading player factions as the only available option for colonisation later on. IMO, without touching the costs, this could partially be mitigated by increasing the colonisation range (expected change) to bypass any current main expansion front in a timely manner as a preliminary step, or being able to employ a non-ruling faction as the colonisation agent - although this would still require overthrowing the ruling player faction after the first BGS expansion into a system if more BGS expansions are required.

 

[Semivivus]

Sounds like a lot of words to say "I wish Elite was a single player game."

That would be a convenient strawman.

Edit: Assuming your post isn't satire, which I'm kind of guessing it is at this point - if you're worried about "clutter," wouldn't you be in favor of some sort of expiration mechanic like what I've proposed?

The clutter in my case are the player minor factions with bad, lore-unfriendly or outright repulsive names multiplying like rabbits - this clutter is not removable. Since this ship had long sailed, my post carries a largely sardonic tone with a tad bit of satire. I just want to have more options than having to hoist a flag of "Aisling Bathwater Merchants Military Corp Inc" and colonise systems under their banner.

I would be in favour of some credit upkeep cost if that helps mitigate this potential problem - then again, speaking from the standpoint of a CMDR with credits. I would prefer the ability to develop other CMDR´s systems after a certain period of inactivity by funding the construction of new (randomly placed) stations. In that case, the system could be fully maxed and look good (possibly nullifying any exploits intended by the System Architect in the process that the smaller number of stations had allowed for), and the long-deceased architect gets to keep their name and doesn´t roll in their grave.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

building mini-bubbles along a colonisation path, to support further development / the logistical issue of commodities to drive colonisation further

Though Fleet Carriers will always make this mostly irrelevant.

A freight-fit FC can sustainably deliver over 10000t each day at a distance of 10000LY from the commodity source, for not that much more direct time investment than would be involved in ferrying 10000t to an adjacent system.

A group using "decommission after delivery" FCs could deliver 10000t per freighter to Beagle Point every two days.

Any group moving fast enough to care about chaining expansions and establishing intermediate points will certainly have enough resources to use FCs to bypass the question; regardless, even if you did need want a supply depot 10000 LY from Sol to ease your attempt to settle somewhere 20000 LY away, the most efficient way to get one would probably be "hope some other group wants to build a mini-bubble in about the right place" because it'll be ready by the time you really need it [1].

It's a nice idea in principle but short of arbitrarily making colonisation commodities un-FCable (including, probably, carriage on docked ships) I can't see it ever being relevant. With a 10 LY range it's going to take over a year to get more than one FC jump from the edge of the bubble.

[1] And of course that's the other issue with building your own; you need to build it big enough for both your needs and those of anyone else settling systems nearby. As the regular Tritium complaints show, getting capacity high enough to satisfy everyone requires a bit more than just a "mini-bubble".

or being able to employ a non-ruling faction as the expansion agent

If you can colonise with any faction in the system, then there are going to be several thousand NPC factions (well over twice the total number of PMFs) usable on day 1.

An adopted NPC faction is far less likely to generate the same level of momentum

No, but that's not the point.

Let's say someone (without a particular BGS faction allegiance) wants to colonise the Veil West Nebula and has the charisma and reach to get other people to join the project.

There's a good chance that the faction they pick will just be "whatever one controls the bubble system closest to Veil West". Is it statistically likely that this will be "someone else's" PMF? Sure. Why does that matter? They aren't going to sell it as "let's get the Sun Wen Ho Pro-Independent Union out to Veil West", they're going to sell it as "let's build colonies in Veil West because it's pretty" and start from Sun Wen Ho because it happens to be the closest system with both a colonisation contact and a pronouncable name, so happens to use that faction. The "Opening The Veil" squadron doesn't even have a faction attached at first until someone points out that if they do attach the SWHPIU to it they get a bit more info on the systems they pushed to so far.

The really big player groups aren't really big because "Winged Hussars" or "Anti-Xeno Initiative" is a slightly cooler name than "Social Eleu Progressive Party" or "Dukes of Mikunn"; all the rest of the lore, artwork, theming, community, activities, etc. is entirely made up by the players regardless. You don't have to name and brand your colonisation initiative after the random minor faction you happen to be buying colonisation permits from.

One could come up with a few exceptions (hypothetical as well as existing)

Really, I think most cases are "exceptions" to this reading
- the vast majority of PMFs have pretty generic names, bland "generic mercenary group" backstories, and likely about ten people who care about them.
- the majority of large and memorable player-led initiatives haven't involved PMF expansion (or even touched that closely on the group's PMF)

 

[Semivivus]

If you can colonise with any faction in the system, then there are going to be several thousand NPC factions (well over twice the total number of PMFs) usable on day 1.

This sounds like good news to me really. Not only would there be a diverse range of factions available (at least initially), but one would be able to opt out of being an expansion agent for other potentially undesired player factions just to colonise a system.

No, but that's not the point.

Let's say someone (without a particular BGS faction allegiance) wants to colonise the Veil West Nebula and has the charisma and reach to get other people to join the project.

There's a good chance that the faction they pick will just be "whatever one controls the bubble system closest to Veil West". Is it statistically likely that this will be "someone else's" PMF? Sure. Why does that matter? They aren't going to sell it as "let's get the Sun Wen Ho Pro-Independent Union out to Veil West", they're going to sell it as "let's build colonies in Veil West because it's pretty" and start from Sun Wen Ho because it happens to be the closest system with both a colonisation contact and a pronouncable name, so happens to use that faction. The "Opening The Veil" squadron doesn't even have a faction attached at first until someone points out that if they do attach the SWHPIU to it they get a bit more info on the systems they pushed to so far.

In that case, using an NPC faction would be a necessity without initial regard for its thematic value and relevance - I would expect this but kept my point outside of these entirely pragmatic scenarios. There will inevitably be initiatives aimed at colonising the likes of Sag A* and other desired locations beyond the Bubble, employing whatever factions available. I´m not assuming there will be an impenetrable iron curtain of player-only factions surrounding the old Bubble - some NPC factions should definitely be able squeeze out one way or another. In fact, I want to know how much bigger the selection of NPC factions will be in reality, and whether there will be gaps for more to potentially break beyond the Bubble.

However, let´s not sidestep and assume that squadrons won´t be acting in the interests of their own faction before anything, as the OP demonstrates. This doesn´t mean they will abandon the prospects of getting their faction to a pretty nebula either, even if it means being the second or third to arrive following a community-driven NPC faction that arrives there first. As long as their faction name can be plastered somewhere around, the wait and effort would remain worthwhile for many.

The really big player groups aren't really big because "Winged Hussars" or "Anti-Xeno Initiative" is a slightly cooler name than "Social Eleu Progressive Party" or "Dukes of Mikunn"; all the rest of the lore, artwork, theming, community, activities, etc. is entirely made up by the players regardless. You don't have to name and brand your colonisation initiative after the random minor faction you happen to be buying colonisation permits from.

I never said the success of larger groups was solely due to their name. A name and a group vision, for instance, provide a solid starting point, but there are also other deeper unifying factors such as shared cultural or thematic foundations - player nationality and anti-Thargoid sentiments in these cases, which NPC factions do not inherently possess. A player faction with a "purpose" eases further promotion and allows a faction to snowball into something else. It is on the other hand harder for an NPC faction to propel the same way, with only a handful of exceptions to my memory...

...which belong to a different class of exceptions than the ones you’re referring to:

Really, I think most cases are "exceptions" to this reading
- the vast majority of PMFs have pretty generic names, bland "generic mercenary group" backstories, and likely about ten people who care about them.
- the majority of large and memorable player-led initiatives haven't involved PMF expansion (or even touched that closely on the group's PMF)

The exceptions I was referring to were generic NPC factions with otherwise massive player support.

As for "generic mercenary groups", there was a reason why they chose to be the "generic mercenary group" and gave their faction its own name accordingly, which must have at least carried a sentimental value. Not quite the same as adopting "Segoveduwa Empire Party" that wasn´t "theirs" to begin with.

 

[Mr Lindsay]

I don't understand why it's nonsense... unless you're referring only of the initial starport.

The initial starport is not the problem here. Setting up a complex economy made up of many installations is.

If one player is able to control the dozens, perhaps hundreds, of star systems required to control any area of the galaxy, and builds only an initial starport in them without any further economy, and does so to such an extent that they create an expansion 'desert' beyond which other players cannot hope to successfully colonise...
Well done to them.

They'll have worked hard to achieve something that no-one else in the game could dream of achieving, and whether they abandon the game or not they should be allowed to enjoy their infamy for as long as the game lasts. Lesser efforts will be easily thwarted by players simply leap-frogging, going around, or using carriers to build up systems just beyond so that expansion can continue more easily from there instead.

 

[BardBowman]

I would be in favour of some credit upkeep cost if that helps mitigate this potential problem - then again, speaking from the standpoint of a CMDR with credits. I would prefer the ability to develop other CMDR´s systems after a certain period of inactivity by funding the construction of new (randomly placed) stations. In that case, the system could be fully maxed and look good (possibly nullifying any exploits intended by the System Architect in the process that the smaller number of stations had allowed for), and the long-deceased architect gets to keep their name and doesn´t roll in their grave.

Other than the "random placement" bit (since manual placement of installations, especially planetary ones, is a pretty interesting feature), that all sounds great to me.

 

[pmejna]

If one player is able to control the dozens, perhaps hundreds, of star systems required to control any area of the galaxy, and builds only an initial starport in them without any further economy, and does so to such an extent that they create an expansion 'desert' beyond which other players cannot hope to successfully colonise...
Well done to them.

They'll have worked hard to achieve something that no-one else in the game could dream of achieving, and whether they abandon the game or not they should be allowed to enjoy their infamy for as long as the game lasts. Lesser efforts will be easily thwarted by players simply leap-frogging, going around, or using carriers to build up systems just beyond so that expansion can continue more easily from there instead.

Isn't that the dream of many players to be able to colonize as far from the bubble as possible? Many players will be happy with some folks just focused on daisy chaining. This should be your choice to pick the location suitable for you. If you aren't able to colonize further away - that's on you. If the player could set up a dozen initial stops from the bubble - shouldn't be a problem for you to pick a point and branch out - then start your own bubble and supply system for your small bubble

 

[yianniv]

I think this thread is like too much smoke for so small a flame...
There are hundreds of systems in the bubble with minimal development. Just shrug and jump away...
Unless you're practicing the art of arguing...