Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[VR Golgot]

Meanwhile Heavy_Bob has been on a stats mission again . He's been taking ~monthly snapshots of CIG's job openings page since the end of 2018...

Spoiler: stats

Date	Los Angeles	Austin	Frankfurt	Manchester	Montreal
2018-12-12	16	6	25	46	0
2018-12-23	19	6	26	49	0
2019-01-05	18	11	26	49	0
2019-01-26	18	11	27	53	0
2019-02-28	17	11	26	50	0
2019-03-29	19	9	26	49	0
2019-03-30	20	9	26	49	0
2019-04-01	20	9	26	49	0
2019-05-02	17	11	25	50	0
2019-06-07	18	13	27	51	0
2019-07-10	16	16	29	47	0
2019-08-10	12	12	24	37	0
2019-08-26	11	13	22	33	0
2019-09-11	11	9	19	35	0
2019-09-15	10	9	19	36	0
2019-09-21	11	7	18	41	0
2019-09-28	11	7	18	43	0
2019-10-05	11	5	18	41	0
2019-10-07	11	5	18	41	0
2019-10-11	11	4	18	42	0
2019-10-12	11	4	18	42	0
2019-10-24	11	4	18	40	0
2019-10-25	11	4	18	40	0
2019-10-26	11	4	18	40	0
2019-12-02	10	4	20	42	0
2019-12-03	10	4	20	42	0
2019-12-10	10	4	20	42	0
2019-12-24	10	5	20	43	0
2020-01-05	10	5	20	43	0
2020-01-17	10	6	20	44	0
2020-02-16	12	7	18	44	0
2020-03-31	10	7	18	46	0
2020-04-16	9	7	18	43	0
2020-04-29	10	8	20	42	0
2020-05-13	8	7	20	41	0
2020-05-28	8	9	19	41	0
2020-05-29	8	9	19	41	0
2020-06-03	8	9	19	40	0
2020-06-10	9	9	19	41	0
2020-06-18	8	9	19	40	0
2020-06-30	7	8	19	38	0
2020-07-28	9	12	19	37	0
2020-08-04	8	11	22	36	0
2020-08-12	8	12	22	36	0
2020-09-16	10	10	23	34	0
2020-09-17	10	10	23	34	0
2020-09-28	13	14	22	34	0
2020-09-29	13	14	22	34	0
2020-10-31	14	13	24	33	0
2020-11-01	14	13	24	33	0
2020-11-11	14	14	24	33	0
2020-11-12	14	14	24	33	0
2020-11-22	15	16	24	33	0
2020-11-25	15	16	24	33	0
2020-12-04	16	16	24	33	0
2021-01-21	13	12	23	33	0
2021-02-18	14	12	22	32	0
2021-02-26	15	13	22	32	0
2021-03-01	15	13	22	32	0
2021-03-04	15	14	22	32	0
2021-04-17	13	8	4	17	0
2021-04-24	15	10	10	18	0
2021-05-14	13	13	14	18	0
2021-06-01	12	11	16	18	0
2021-06-06	12	11	15	19	0
2021-06-07	12	11	15	19	0
2021-06-25	15	8	16	19	0
2021-07-20	19	11	20	23	0
2021-07-30	19	12	19	23	0
2021-08-04	18	13	20	23	0
2021-08-11	18	15	20	23	0
2021-08-12	18	15	19	23	0
2021-08-15	20	16	19	23	0
2021-08-27	21	16	20	22	0
2021-09-16	21	17	21	22	0
2021-10-19	20	16	23	22	0
2021-10-21	20	16	24	22	0
2021-11-03	18	14	23	22	0
2021-11-05	18	14	23	22	0
2021-11-11	18	13	23	22	0
2021-12-03	18	11	25	22	0
2021-12-04	18	11	25	22	0
2022-01-07	19	9	30	22	0
2022-03-12	16	8	26	20	0
2022-03-13	16	8	26	20	0
2022-04-04	17	10	24	73	0
2022-04-11	16	9	24	75	0
2022-04-27	16	9	26	76	0
2022-05-23	13	9	24	71	0
2022-05-28	14	10	25	71	0
2022-07-16	14	14	30	72	0
2022-07-19	14	14	30	71	0
2022-07-27	13	12	30	71	0
2022-08-13	14	16	32	71	0
2022-08-21	15	16	33	71	0
2022-09-10	16	19	33	70	0
2022-10-07	16	20	31	67	0
2022-10-15	17	21	31	66	0
2022-10-20	17	21	31	66	0
2022-11-02	16	18	30	67	0
2022-11-25	16	17	30	69	0
2022-12-05	16	15	34	78	0
2022-12-16	16	13	34	77	0
2023-01-02	16	12	34	77	0
2023-01-28	16	21	38	86	0
2023-02-14	12	12	33	80	0
2023-03-05	10	9	28	84	0
2023-03-14	10	8	26	82	0
2023-03-26	9	3	20	76	0
2023-04-09	5	1	12	62	0
2023-05-27	9	1	14	58	0
2023-06-20	6	1	13	54	0
2023-09-25	0	0	13	39	6
2023-10-11	0	1	9	25	0
2023-10-21	0	1	9	20	0
2023-11-06	0	1	9	19	0
2023-11-26	0	1	9	17	1
2023-12-23	0	1	8	22	4
2024-01-08	0	1	8	22	4
2024-01-09	0	1	8	22	3
2024-01-18	0	1	8	22	3
2024-02-25	0	1	8	26	4
2024-03-24	0	2	9	28	8
2024-04-16	0	2	8	26	6
2024-04-19	0	2	8	26	8
2024-05-01	1	2	9	30	8
2024-05-18	2	2	7	30	8
2024-05-20	2	2	7	31	8
2024-05-25	2	2	7	35	8
2024-06-04	2	2	7	45	11
2024-06-15	2	1	9	43	12
2024-06-20	2	1	9	45	12
2024-07-04	2	1	9	42	10
2024-07-21	2	1	11	44	11
2024-07-27	2	1	11	44	11
2024-08-10	1	2	11	45	11
2024-08-22	0	1	11	41	11
2024-09-17	0	1	10	43	13
2024-10-02	0	1	10	44	13
2024-10-06	0	1	10	45	13
2024-11-19	0	0	8	44	8
2024-12-03	0	0	8	45	9
2024-12-05	0	0	7	44	9
2024-12-13	0	0	7	41	9
2024-12-23	0	0	7	39	9

Definitely fits with the heavy downsizing of America/Montreal. And to a degree with the Glassdoor / insider talk of recruitment freezes for many departments since 2023. (With just leaver replacement, no expansion recruitment etc).

 

[Viajero]

2023 was probably a peak staff number year due to the Turbulent acquisition. Since then CIG seems to have been pretty much constantly downsizing.

 

[HansAcker]

If I had to guess at what's going on here ($5m for ~2% of CIG), this ain't some sugar daddy riding to the rescue / replacing the Calders. This is some kinda mini bridging loan maybe?

Collateral for a loan? It would give the holder 2% of the liquidated assets if it went (Total Inability To Support Usual Performance).

Where does the number $5M come from? Is that extrapolated from the earlier Calders investment and number of shares received?

The nominal value of the new shares is about two pounds fiddy. On the form it says that the lot was sold for about 20 pounds.
Does anything above the filed amount go into the share premium account with special rules on what it can be used for?

I have next to no experience with private shares, I'm afraid.

 

[VR Golgot]

Collateral for a loan?

Yeah that'd make more sense. (Would still imagine they could leverage some nasty payback options of their own, if this turns out to be a 'desperate cash injection' scenario etc).

Where does the number $5M come from? Is that extrapolated from the earlier Calders investment and number of shares received?

The nominal value of the new shares is about two pounds fiddy. On the form it says that the lot was sold for about 20 pounds.

Just the share total x the £20.20 pricing.

Does anything above the filed amount go into the share premium account with special rules on what it can be used for?

Yeah no idea on this stuff. But hopefully the forensic accountants are gathering

 

[HansAcker]

Just the share total x the £20.20 pricing.

D'Oh. Yes, I see it now on the 2018 paper form: "Amount paid (including share premium) on each share".
I mistook the newer form's "Amount paid" for a total amount.

Thanks.

 

[abc0815]

Did Ortwin Frymouth not own some stake? He retired from CIG so selling would make sense.

 

[HansAcker]

Did Ortwin Frymouth not own some stake? He retired from CIG so selling would make sense.

He's been accounted for.

Game Discussions - Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

They changed the website to show SC as 'Early Access' So now people can argue it is a pre-alpha / alpha / early access / playable now. Pick your state!

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[VR Golgot]

Stu summarises nicely...

[Oh nope, EDIT time...]

thinking about this a bit more, it's a $5m trade for 2% of CIG shares
therefore CIG's total valuation is now about $250m for 100% of shares
but back in 2018 Calders did their first investment: $46m for 10%
which valued CIG at $460m
so in 7 years, CIG as a company has devalued 45%

---

EDIT: shrach points out that the investment will be mirrored on the US side. So it's a $10m investment for 2%. Valuing CIG at $500m

 

[Viajero]

Stu summarises nicely...

Ah yes, my comment above was inflated in the sense that CIG converted their shares by a factor of 10 after the Calder investment.

 

[VR Golgot]

Ah yes, my comment above was inflated in the sense that CIG converted their shares by a factor of 10 after the Calder investment.

Yeah that 'randomly increase by a factor' thing has thrown me a bunch of times.

 

[VR Golgot]

Another juicy segment fell out of the 'Let's make lemonade!' video...

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alvnge7jG0M&t=8412s

One of the things that we have not tackled with the refactor is how missions are built. We have not provided this team with the right tools to build compelling missions. They are dealing with an archaic scripting system that dates back to a previous era that we are just about to finish modernizing, by replacing, to give these guys modern tools and modern approaches.

...we have started the engineering work with the new Starscript foundation, uh, to rethink how missions are made...

So the mission refactor, even if successful, will still leave the devs using cumbersome old CIG design tools. But the next refactor will fix all of that...

Gotcha.

 

[ECity]

I love these little SC moments. Traveling through quantum...

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

Another juicy segment fell out of the 'Let's make lemonade!' video...

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alvnge7jG0M&t=8412s




So the mission refactor, even if successful, will still leave the devs using cumbersome old CIG design tools. But the next refactor will fix all of that...

Gotcha.

lol. Oops. He even talks about replacing missions from scratch - obviously far superior to a plain ol’ refactor! Oh and the tools! Brand new tools with new modern tech!
And just think of the fresh refactors we can plan for in the future for the new tier missions! Next will be phasing in server meshed missions, so the missions will transfer over servers using the very latest tech! And then a slight batch of patches to somehow get the now duplicating missions to stop duplicating!
It’s certainly a new angle for cg.
StarTagen
Although it’s the same old, same old really.
I don’t think they’ll be able to keep it up though, not this time. But maybe just long enough I hope to get what fun sq42 out!

I love these little SC moments. Traveling through quantum...

lol.

 

[VR Golgot]

shrach answering some investment questions over on SA

I have a probably stupid question but I’ll ask it regardless

With a private company like cig issuing shares

Who sets the price on the shares?

And also what “backs” up the share valuation , is it assets ?

Or are the shares effectively worthless aside from showing who is in control by owning the most

What I’m getting at is if Chris self prices the shares at some insane amount and gives himself 69% of the shares ( for the sake of argument)

Would he be entitled to x amount if he ever sold off his shares?

Is this just another way for Chris to make sure he gets every last drop from the backers ?

If the company is worth $0 after the fire sale and they shutter all the offices , I imagine the shares are just considered scrap , there’s no actual amount tied to the shares like a savings account right ?

Probably more detail than you want but there's a few elements. Shares have a nominal value. The usual default is £1 each but can be whatever. So the very first entry in any company is usually 100 shares. This will put £100 on the balance sheet for the bank account and £100 on the balance sheet as the capital account. Thus it will be balanced and from there every entry goes in twice. In CIG's case they split the shares so they have 11,993,440 shares of £0.00001 each, which is a total of £119.93 for share capital.

Now, when the Calders bought in this is recorded in two tranches. The nominal value of share capital doesn't change but when they paid in excess of this nominal amount it went into a share premium account.

So this is there most recent balance sheet.

Generally when looking at a balance sheet, you will look at the net assets line, which shows £10,616,750 and is totalled with double underlines (and it will balance with the capital account below at the second set of double underlines).

Now, £10m might initially seem like a good level for net assets. But think about how capital account works. When the Calders paid ~£22m for shares in the UK group, the company accounts for in this way. They get a debit of £22m cash in the bank, increasing their net assets by £22m. There is a dual entry to the share premium account of a notional £22m credit entry.

So the remaining item in the capital account for equity is retained earnings. Because there is a bracket around the number that signals the retained earnings are in fact losses, not profits. So despite an injection of £22m in cash that appear for "nothing" the net asset position of the company is £10.6m showing that they have blown through £12m of that cash injection, which matches the £12m in historical losses.

In days of old share valuation usually looks at two things. The net assets of the balance sheet is important, but only really half the story. Though if you were asset stripping a company that would be where you start. The other way that shares are usually valued is by looking at the profit and loss account. The simplest way would be to look at the p/e ratio. If the company makes £1m profit and has 10 million shares, if you decided to value the shares at £1 each, that would be a p/e ratio of 10:1. Growth is usually the next factor introduced there, turning the p/e ratio into a peg ratio. I digress but you can use that info to look at the "value" prospect of any companies that make a profit.

But yeah, shares are only worth what someone is willing to pay and what you can sell them for. There are various legal protections that minority shareholders have etc. The missing element here is that the Calders have this extra written piece of paper that was "hidden" from the auditors for years that says, they are owed a load of money for their shares if they decide they want to sell them back to the company at various points in the future. That piece of paper is what the share premium really bought, not the shares themselves, which have a nominal value of ~£17.

If the company went bankrupt, the very final people paid out would be the shareholders. This is why generally you only put £100 into the share capital account. If you were a one person company that you just formed day one, you would loan the company money personally as a directors loan and not introduce that money as extra capital for more shares/share premium. This is the whole concept and reason for the name of a limited liability company by the way. Your liability is limited to the share capital you put into the company.

As per the Calders original investment info release, they paid 46 millions USD for 113,861 new shares at the time . How does that share price compared to the price in this recent allotment? Would this be comparing the same things?

Edit: Ah I remember there was a ~x10 dilution in share numbers a couple years back. So 113,861 shares at the time would now be 1,138,610 or something along those lines.

Yeah I was a bit rushed before and made just the tiniest error, the total paid probably wasn't £20.20, that was per share. So they actually just raised an extra £5 million from this share issue. Oopsy, no one will read this far down.

There were 30,120 shares issued in 2023 at £36.58 each for a total of £1.1m. There's no accounts for these yet. 2020 was 46129@£128.41 = £5.9m and 9250@£78.1 = £722k. 2019 had 2340@£173.567 = £406k. 2018 had 113,861@£149.63 = £17.04m

So those add up to £24m up to 2022 with accounts showing share premium of £22.7m in 2022 but I can't be bothered to go back and see why those don't match (£1m of the difference is related to the dividend payout though, so just £300k difference). The £1.1m in 2023 should show on the next accounts (currently overdue), the £5m revealed today won't appear until the 2025 accounts in 2027 or whenever they feel like it.

Remember the $46m in 2018 was split into both UK and US groups. So the $23m half of that is represented by the above figure of £17.04m. The Calders also invested $17.25m in 2019, half of which some ~$8.63m into the UK group and is represented by the £5.9m figure above.

Someone might need to rouse Ortwin for one more press release championing what we can assume is Calders investing another (£5m x 2 converted into dollars) $12.5 million.

+

It may or may not be a coincidence that more shares were issued and the accounts have not been filed while we are currently in the specific period 1 January 2025 to 31 March 2025 that is mentioned in paragraph three here, where the put option for 1.6m shares is currently exercisable.

TLDR seems to be:

• CIG had spent 55% of the Calders combined investments by Dec 2022.
• This latest investment is likely split 50/50 between the key UK/US entities again, so the £5m signifies: $12.5m invested in 2025.. [EDIT: Seems they've goofed there. The shares were valued in $, so the full amount would be $10m.]
• The 2023 Turbulent share deal will show up in the (very late) accounts.
• This 2025 investment probably won't be detailed until deep into 2027. Because CIG.

I'm not really clear what line they're dancing on the put option though. They seem to say both: This $12.5m $10m is likely the Calders slinging more cash in. And: The exit window is still very much open. And those accounts are very much tardy...

 

[VR Golgot]

A minor aside for now is: At $10m for 2%, the latest investment has valued CIG at ~$500m. Even higher than the Calders' investment in 2018.

(Although as shrach points out, what they were really buying there, and valuing, was the rather secret contract it bought, with lovely payback clauses and everything )

 

[VR Golgot]

Bonus drama: Someone seems to have flagged CIG to the ASA again:

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/1iontki/ci_reported_to_uk_government_for_false_advertising

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/1iontki/ci_reported_to_uk_government_for_false_advertising/


But it's hard to know, as Spectrum is flaking out all over the place at the moment, and returning black holes...

(The main forums seems to be working at the mo though, and I can't see the post. Reckon it's been supernovaed for real...)

EDIT: Nope, it's live again. But they brown-dwarfed it instead. All refs to ASA modded out seemingly.

 

[VR Golgot]

This thread is working though:

Every bit of Tentative titillation from 2021-2024 that never quite flowered into full glory...

Undelivered tech from Roadmap - Jan 2021 to Jan 2025 - Star Citizen Spectrum

Hello Citizen's, hello CIG, Since the start of this year and the changes in development direction that i'm very happy with, we all hope for less bugs to have a smoother experience in game. For me...

robertsspaceindustries.com

So many forgotten fancies. Space mines. NPC taxis. Hacking...

(Some of the stuff actually has made it. But you wouldn't blame them for not knowing. It's either very different or just doesn't work that well )

 

[metatheurgist]

Are they actually moving air though pipes in the ship yet?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Interesting if Calder really did invest more money. Sunk Cost Investment?

It would imply then they are not planning on exercising their option to pull their money.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

This thread is working though:

Every bit of Tentative titillation from 2021-2024 that never quite flowered into full glory...

Undelivered tech from Roadmap - Jan 2021 to Jan 2025 - Star Citizen Spectrum

Hello Citizen's, hello CIG, Since the start of this year and the changes in development direction that i'm very happy with, we all hope for less bugs to have a smoother experience in game. For me...

robertsspaceindustries.com

So many forgotten fancies. Space mines. NPC taxis. Hacking...

(Some of the stuff actually has made it. But you wouldn't blame them for not knowing. It's either very different or just doesn't work that well )

Hello there "Roadmap Watcher", please stop making "noise"