It's great to be back but I have a big concern

[Refreshing Truth]

This
(Welcome to the forums btw!) o7

I could go from Sidewinder to T9 in a few hours...and I could go from T9 to PvP in a few days...but that is only because I know what I'm doing...
If I had never played Elite before, it would take me alot longer.

IMHO ships for ARX (as they stand now) aren't so bad. What you can build in-game is much much better, and it would still take a while for a new Cmdr to figure out how to use them most effectively.

I understand your point - and suffice to say I'm keeping an eye on that slippery slope...I'll be the first to complain if it gets bad, but we're not there yet.
Extra money for FDev hopefully means more development time spent on Elite.
(Also, welcome to the forums to you too!) o7

Yeah honestly I'm fine with most of the ships in the store and the early access, the T9 with A class and engineered

I had to make an account to talk about this
I started playing at the beginning of march, so basically a little over 20 days ago and 3 days after having started playing i bought the t9 jumpstarter, and it has already brought me in over 10b credits, i now own a fleet carrier and an A rated mining Anaconda pre engineered (because i don't even have any engineers unlocked)
But what i have done is supply FC carriers with materials, aka basically helping other players. Since i began playing i've hauled close to 150k commodities to carriers and put in over 60 hours out of my nearly 85 hours in game.

So to an extend it's true that you can skip a large portion of the "progression" if you see progression as ships. But the real progression still require time and reputation to unlock the best modules and weapons. The ship selling model is still far more benign compared to Star Citizen, which i have thrown over 3k$ into...
And when it comes to PvP the more experienced player will always out do a new player, even if he got a large type 9. Which just makes them more of an easy target to clap for a pirate.
I did however have my first two player interceptions today in Minerva, and i was in a stock Mandalay, still managed to win the interception game twice, which was a great feeling, no p2w there for me.

I've also thrown quite a bit of money towards the store already for cosmetics, if i didn't get the type 9, i would probably have given up already, now i'm completely hooked on the game, it hasn't really allowed me to win anything significant though, i'm now in a comfortable place where i'm beginning to build out actual ships for what i want to do, and as well starting to farm rep and gather materials for the Guardian FSB and the engineering grind.

Thanks for sharing, that's pretty interesting and kinda confirms my feelings about what that T9 can do for a player who is relatively new and wants to 'progress' (different meaning for everyone of course).

Agree that most pvp encounters will be decided by skill and experience not swiping power, but of course occasionally swiping could be the difference too.

I'm curious about why you feel you would have given up without the T9 purchase option? was it just too slow to earn credits with mid game ships?

 

[ꝁestrel]

So my argument was a player with a sidewinder (or another early mid game ship) will make a less of a impact on a PowerPlay territory war than a player in a A class T9 from the store and you replied that different tiers of T9 don't make much difference... sorry if there's been some confusion but I never claimed tier differences in T9 were big or small, if possible can you explain to me why two players of equal skill and time input don't see different competitive outcomes on PowerPlay if one of them buys the A class T9 from the store?

Go buy a T9 in the store and make a meaningful impact on Power Play. Spoiler: You will not.

I think it's definitely pay to win.

That's like saying a single player game is pay to win.

 

[LightningEffect]

Thanks for sharing, that's pretty interesting and kinda confirms my feelings about what that T9 can do for a player who is relatively new and wants to 'progress'
I'm curious about why you feel you would have given up without the T9 purchase option? was it just too slow to earn credits with mid game ships?

Definitely, it's quite a powerful tool early on, and yes it may be able to have an affect when it comes to PP but i know nothing about it really, Since i'm so new there is no incentive for me to join PP and give myself all the limitations that comes with it. And the players who are ready for it, most likely have much better options available already.

For me the early mission grind is not fun at all, i'm not a slow learner and quickly find 3rd party tools and guides. I didn't even get past my Sidewinder before jumping straight into the bigger and more involved parts of the game which is my type of fun, i enjoy learning on the fly. If i had to do Exbio for easy money i would have to do something i really have no interest in at all. Also learning how to fly the Type 9 has made me a significantly better pilot when it comes to the smaller ships. If i can spend a few bucks to get to do what i want in game, i'll gladly pay for it. That may just be the Star Citizen in me talking though

 

[krylite]

I'm not that comfortable with new idea of arx purchases being able to make 'shortcuts' in developing ships and engineering also. But overall I'm accepting of it as something Frontier felt they wanted to sell, because it still hasn't really become an absolute p2win type of marketing yet and ED for much all of it's history except for a few exceptions such as the Cobra mk iv , a one time thing long ago, and the dlc's hasn't made anything gameplay specific exclusive to particular purchasing outside of the game, and most everything can be realized within the game, and one can make enough arx with in-game time to make arx purchases also. Cosmetics is all well and good too, and how the arx store helps pay for ED's use of AWS servers, and I appreciate it where we don't have to pay monthly maintenance fees, nor make a big or exorbitantly priced purchase for a 'needed' dlc, or new version of the game every few years or so like some other game franchises.

As for development, it had been slowed for periods, but I never believe it would ever stop. I'd been understanding Frontier were staggering their development across multiple IP's and they had mentioned that in their financial reports years ago. Whatever they needed to do stay independent and solvent, so as to to keep to the long running vision of the game. So while I was away for long stretches, I'd always pop back in for a short time, at least twice a year to check in on the maintenance of my cmdr's fleet carrier.

 

[Archvillain]

I'm not that comfortable with new idea of arx purchases being able to make 'shortcuts' in developing ships and engineering also. But overall I'm accepting

I'm pretty sure the idea is that players can choose their own way to play; to you and me the idea of purchasing a jumpstart is like paying to miss out on the game, so we are not interested, but some players play the game other ways for other reasons and will not even see it as skipping gameplay. FDev generally tries to support all of our different approaches to how we want to play the game, including when no Arx is involved, so this is more of the same.

Heh, it's kind of nice if there are ARX options for things of no interest to us that others might like, because it means other kinds of players will be supporting the game to play their way, while we get to play our way for no additional cost. They subsidize our fun

 

[Pville_Piper]

, these pre-built ships are about as pay to win as my cobra mk4...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

One way to do it However, this approach is somewhat not worth my time and they may just block you to get to the next victim.

A ganker using the block feature?

How terribly unsporting!



EDIT: If they block you, you also get a clear run then! Win win!

 

[Refreshing Truth]

Go buy a T9 in the store and make a meaningful impact on Power Play. Spoiler: You will not.


That's like saying a single player game is pay to win.

The difference between a 700tn PowerPlay contributor and a 100tn one is the first is 7 times more impactful, so it's definitely pay to win.

 

[Refreshing Truth]

I'm pretty sure the idea is that players can choose their own way to play; to you and me the idea of purchasing a jumpstart is like paying to miss out on the game, so we are not interested, but some players play the game other ways for other reasons and will not even see it as skipping gameplay. FDev generally tries to support all of our different approaches to how we want to play the game, including when no Arx is involved, so this is more of the same.

Heh, it's kind of nice if there are ARX options for things of no interest to us that others might like, because it means other kinds of players will be supporting the game to play their way, while we get to play our way for no additional cost. They subsidize our fun

Thanks for the reply, would you be in favour of allowing players to buy a teleport to anywhere in the Milky Way so they can discover new star systems without the grind of flying out there? I think this would be popular and could make a lot of money to subsidise our fun

 

[ꝁestrel]

The difference between a 700tn PowerPlay contributor and a 100tn one is the first is 7 times more impactful, so it's definitely pay to win.

There is no win condition. It's not a competitive game.

 

[ꝁestrel]

Thanks for the reply, would you be in favour of allowing players to buy a teleport to anywhere in the Milky Way so they can discover new star systems without the grind of flying out there? I think this would be popular and could make a lot of money to subsidise our fun

There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It would just be a bad business model.

The reason exploration has value (for players) is because they have to fly out there. That's what keeps people coming back, engineering their ships, earning money for fleet carriers, etc. The actual sights themselves (nebulas, Sgr A*, etc) aren't all that spectacular.

So if the game allowed us to teleport we'd skip the rewarding traveling part and never come back to the game.

If you stop treating everything like a competition between players then it'll make more sense.

 

[Refreshing Truth]

There is no win condition. It's not a competitive game.

PowerPlay is a player driven battle for territory, players compete for control of star systems, therefore it is one of many competitive activities in the game players can engage in.

Here is some information so you can learn more about it:
https://elite-dangerous.fandom.com/wiki/Powerplay

 

[Archvillain]

Thanks for the reply, would you be in favour of

Hmm, I think I have to agree with the others; you don't sound like you really get this game. You can continue to play it your way seeking to "win" it and upset that others take other routes than you, you do you, but I suspect I'll be having more fun

 

[Refreshing Truth]

There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It would just be a bad business model.

The reason exploration has value (for players) is because they have to fly out there. That's what keeps people coming back, engineering their ships, earning money for fleet carriers, etc. The actual sights themselves (nebulas, Sgr A*, etc) aren't all that spectacular.

So if the game allowed us to teleport we'd skip the rewarding traveling part and never come back to the game.

If you stop treating everything like a competition between players then it'll make more sens

So in essence allowing people to pay to skip most of the games content is bad for the long term health of the game, I totally agree.

Can you explain to me why that same argument isn't also just as valid for letting new players buy late game ships?

 

[ꝁestrel]

PowerPlay is a player driven battle for territory, players compete for control of star systems, therefore it is one of many competitive activities in the game players can engage in.

Here is some information so you can learn more about it:
https://elite-dangerous.fandom.com/wiki/Powerplay

It's not competitive because Solo mode exists:

Game Mode

Elite Dangerous can be played in one of three different Game Modes: Open Play, Private Group Session, and Solo Play. The game's Background Simulation is shared and affected players across all three modes. There are also two secondary modes, Arena and Training, that allow access to the CQC...

elite-dangerous.fandom.com

This might also help clarify things:

Competition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Power Play has existed for a long time and it's had zero impact on the galaxy at large. It's mostly about your own personal progression (earning power play modules). All player-versus-player competitive aspects of the game are entirely opt-in and not really designed with real profit/loss in mind.

 

[Refreshing Truth]

Hmm, I think I have to agree with the others; you don't sound like you really get this game. You can continue to play it your way seeking to "win" it and upset that others take other routes than you, you do you, but I suspect I'll be having mor

 

[ꝁestrel]

Can you explain to me what that same argument isn't also just as valid for letting new players buy late game ships?

There really is no such thing as ship progression. The closest analog to that might be rank locked ships like the Federal Corvette. But that's more rank progression than ship progression. The game does have starter ships like the Sidewinder and Adder. Maybe the Type-7 fits that bill as well.

Ships like the Vulture, Cobra, Python, and others are not "early-game" or "mid-game" ships. They're simply different tools for different tasks. They allow you to factor in rebuy cost, landing pad size, maneuverability, and other similar things depending on the activity you want to do.

I have about 10,000 hours in this game. I picked up my first Anaconda at around the 200 hour mark. Back when I started there weren't very many guides so I just played the game normally. I still fly small and medium ships all of the time.

So allowing people to skip that "progression" (it's not really) doesn't hurt because it only constitutes less than 2% of the experience if they play long term.

The actual progression in this game (engineering, exploring, ranking, and now colonizing) is not monetized at all. Ships are not progression so monetizing it doesn't hurt the game.

 

[Refreshing Truth]

Hmm, I think I have to agree with the others; you don't sound like you really get this game. You can continue to play it your way seeking to "win" it and upset that others take other routes than you, you do you, but I suspect I'll be having more fun

Thanks for the message

What don't I understand?

My concerns are:
* Paid late game ships are inherently unfair in many of the competitive gameplay loops frontier have added to the game and are a form of Pay to Win, this is bad for the percentage of players that do enjoy the competitive gameplay frontier added.

* Buying late game ships as a new player also devalues non competitive solo play as it allows a player to immediately skip to the endgame, ship progression is the most significant progression system, skipping it with real money devalues the enjoyment of progression worsening the new player experience.

* Pay to win in all live service games naturally has to keep becoming more and more intrusive otherwise it ceases to generate revenue, if we're selling late game A class engineered T9's now, where will we be in 2 years time? This in turn will turn off new players from the game as it becomes known as 'a pay to win game'.

I'd be interested to hear why you agree or disagree with me? Do you have any arguments to counter the above?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Buying in game assets for real world money is more or less the definition of pay to win.

However, buying a Type 9 is closer to pay to lose.... yeah, its got great cargo space, but its a slow beast and has a terribly low MLF for such a big ship.

Now, if you were to buy a Cutter....

 

[Refreshing Truth]

There really is no such thing as ship progression. The closest analog to that might be rank locked ships like the Federal Corvette. But that's more rank progression than ship progression. The game does have starter ships like the Sidewinder and Adder. Maybe the Type-7 fits that bill as well.

Ships like the Vulture, Cobra, Python, and others are not "early-game" or "mid-game" ships. They're simply different tools for different tasks. They allow you to factor in rebuy cost, landing pad size, maneuverability, and other similar things depending on the activity you want to do.

I have about 10,000 hours in this game. I picked up my first Anaconda at around the 200 hour mark. Back when I started there weren't very many guides so I just played the game normally. I still fly small and medium ships all of the time.

So allowing people to skip that "progression" (it's not really) doesn't hurt because it only constitutes less than 2% of the experience if they play long term.

The actual progression in this game (engineering, exploring, ranking, and now colonizing) is not monetized at all. Ships are not progression so monetizing it doesn't hurt the game.

Do you think saying 'ships are not progression' is true for how most normal players feel, or just true for you now you have 10,000 hours in game?

Is there a danger you've become very out of touch in the same way billionaires can't relate to normal people?

I wonder if when you first bought and flew the Anaconda for the first time whether you felt like you'd not just progresssed? Let's be honest, we both know you absolutely felt like you'd just levelled up.