DLC20 Discussion (maybe, but why not?)

[NachoB]

No, I refuse to not believe, Frontier would 100% give us a hyrax, I refuse to believe otherwise.View attachment 426553
Joking aside what makes the pelican, Musk ox, and Walrus less realistic then the honey Badger which would probably require more effort?

Musk ox: fur. Look at Highland cow and hamadryas baboon. Not great Outcome for animals that are basically defined by their hair.

Pelican: could use swan as base but everything about their beak and animations will require a lot work.

Walrus: might be possible still but like someone else pointed out neither the seal nor the sea lion base is good enough. Is quite different from both of them.

They just don't fall under the clone cathegory for me. Maybe not the most imposible animals to get but not the easiest either. I actually think the coati was easier than any of these and we didn't get that one either. Even more unique animals don't seem likely for now for me.

 

[DarthQuell]

Musk ox: fur. Look at Highland cow and hamadryas baboon. Not great Outcome for animals that are basically defined by their hair.

You chose 2 out of how many animals with good looking fur, though. Look at the sloth bear. The sloth itself. The binturong. They all look good

Walrus: might be possible still but like someone else pointed out neither the seal nor the sea lion base is good enough. Is quite different from both of them.

I don't think it'd be a big stretch, honestly. They would work on land as sea lions and in the water just modify the seal/sea lion swimming animations

 

[Mjmannella]

ou chose 2 out of how many animals with good looking fur, though. Look at the sloth bear. The sloth itself. The binturong. They all look good

Context is key. 2024-2025 Frontier isn’t the same as 2021-2023 Frontier

 

[DarthQuell]

Context is key. 2024-2025 Frontier isn’t the same as 2021-2023 Frontier

Maybe, but that's still only a select few animals out of several in 2024 Frontier that did look good

 

[NachoB]

Maybe, but that's still only a select few animals out of several in 2024 Frontier that did look good

Most of the other animals have short hair. Or feathers. They really improved their feather work though. And the wool textures. But long hair has been downgraded. The last good looking long hair animal we got was Indeed the sloth bear. I thought the Highland cow was a one off but then the baboon suffered from the same issue. So yeah is more of a recent problem. Maybe from a lack of resources idk. And who knows maybe I'm wrong and we get a great looking musk ox or yak, but I'm not confidente we will.

 

[DarthQuell]

Most of the other animals have short hair. Or feathers. They really improved their feather work though. And the wool textures. But long hair has been downgraded. The last good looking long hair animal we got was Indeed the sloth bear. I thought the Highland cow was a one off but then the baboon suffered from the same issue. So yeah is more of a recent problem. Maybe from a lack of resources idk. And who knows maybe I'm wrong and we get a great looking musk ox or yak, but I'm not confidente we will.

I dunno, maybe 2025 is the year we get more birds than mammals...

But really, there's 2 ways to view it all. There are areas Frontier excels in, and areas where they need to work

 

[TheNamesJonas]

Has anyone here ever done a tier list of all the animals in terms of quality? Like remove all biases aside and look at the texture and model quality alone and rank them.

 

[NZFanatic]

I feel the honey badger would be pretty at home on the wolverine

Yeah I don't get why the honey badger is in question. Memes aside, they're not that special in terms of morphology.

I'm just kind of pessimistic about future animals in general. The coyote has really soured me, and as much as I like them, the flamingo and rhea aren't exactly inspired either. The bush dog is pretty great in terms of effort, at least.

To me, though, it feels like if we do get another DLC, we'll probably be limited to one or two really great animals, and five or six just sort of okay ones. And that places a new limitation on what feels reasonable to expect and wish for. For example, the serval is fairly unique in terms of cats; longer in limb and neck, and known for its high jumping style of hunting, but if we get the serval, does that mean we don't get something else? And speaking personally, given that the serval (just as an example of an animal I personally really want) is quite unique, if we get, say, a tree kangaroo (as an example of something I'm not interested in), does that mean the serval becomes less likely?

I miss the days when it was more or less no holds barred. We've always had "clone"-heavy content but at the same time we've always known more content was surely coming.

 

[Iben]

Musk ox: fur. Look at Highland cow and hamadryas baboon. Not great Outcome for animals that are basically defined by their hair.

Okay but both those animals came in their respective packs; so I don't see how that one is unrealistic. Sure will it be Sloth Bear levels of fur quality? Probably not; but frankly that's not stopping Frontier? We've literally seen that it doesn't stop them.

Pelican: could use swan as base but everything about their beak and animations will require a lot work.

Walrus: might be possible still but like someone else pointed out neither the seal nor the sea lion base is good enough. Is quite different from both of them.

Not really tbh, Monsoon already did a very good approximation for the pelican on the swan with rig editing alone and you have to compare that with using crayons vs using Photoshop. Again, I feel like this is forgotten a lot, but Frontier's rigs are build with custom made tools exactly for this purpose, we've known this for years. The same basically goes for the walrus.

They just don't fall under the clone cathegory for me. Maybe not the most imposible animals to get but not the easiest either. I actually think the coati was easier than any of these and we didn't get that one either. Even more unique animals don't seem likely for now for me.

And that's where I think this whole "clone" thing just keeps falling apart over and over and over again. (This is more something I feel in general, not targeting this directly at you btw)

Even for this pack where tons of people were already shouting that there would be no new animations, it turns out we were proven wrong once again. Not every pack gets a ton of new animations; but frankly not every animal needs a ton of new animations. We're 6 years in guys, we've got so many rigs and animation sets, there seriously isn't a big need to reinvent the wheel every single time. It wouldn't only be a waste of resources on Frontiers end; but frankly also on our ends in terms of computing power.

We got bigger changes to the capuchin rig than people give it credit for in terms of the saki and the bush dog even got freakin deepdiving; which frankly is more animation work than adjusting a small amount of animations to have the coati with their tail in the air from time to time. And this is hardly the first time we miss these kinds of things in terms of animations, I still remember how everyone said that the lechwe was a clone whilst it got what is practically a new animation set.

I'm not saying all the previously mentioned animals are guaranteed to be added to the game, but frankly people obsess way too much about rigs and animations. We act as if that's the biggest cost but at the end of the day we have no clue if that is even remotely true. The only real insight we have on animations and rigs even points us more into the other direction if we're being honest. So all this time we've just been going off on a hunch really, but we could be wrong entirely. Like, I spent my time as a kid growing up in Brugges where there were only white swans, but that doesn't mean black swans don't exist. It's the same exact reasoning error.

Creating an entire new animation set from scratch is obviously more costly than reusing an old animation set, I'm not saying the opposite; but Frontier has the tools to edit animation sets for existing rigs and has done it time and time again, even today in a pack we describe as "clone heavy". And 6 years in, they've got plenty of base rigs and animation sets to start from; to a point where half of the time we don't even recognize it when it happens. People still think the swan is an entirely new rig from scratch whilst it's an adjusted flamingo rig and animation set. Heck, if modders hadn't found out I don't think anyone would have noticed that the Tasmanian Devil is essentially an adjusted Raccoon.

I genuinely get the pessimism though, and frankly I do think there's a bunch of animals we're not going to get regardless of the amount of work they require because they're saved as a selling point for a sequel; but I also do think that we barely got an idea of what goes into the process of deciding animals for the packs. We look at the results and base our theories on that but honestly @Topaz Star is right here, we've got no clue and we're trying to fill the blanks why our favorite animals aren't being added.

So whilst I get the pessimism; I do think we're just bringing ourselves down with scenarios where we think we're not going to get animal A or B or that we're going to get animal A but not B because A is slightly more work. I get trying to find reasons why your favorite animal wasn't added; but you're doing nothing but bringing yourself down by ruling out a bunch of animals when you at the end of the day have no clue if they're being ruled out at all.

 

[SanRazo]

Okay but both those animals came in their respective packs; so I don't see how that one is unrealistic. Sure will it be Sloth Bear levels of fur quality? Probably not; but frankly that's not stopping Frontier? We've literally seen that it doesn't stop them.


Not really tbh, Monsoon already did a very good approximation for the pelican on the swan with rig editing alone and you have to compare that with using crayons vs using Photoshop. Again, I feel like this is forgotten a lot, but Frontier's rigs are build with custom made tools exactly for this purpose, we've known this for years. The same basically goes for the walrus.


And that's where I think this whole "clone" thing just keeps falling apart over and over and over again. (This is more something I feel in general, not targeting this directly at you btw)

Even for this pack where tons of people were already shouting that there would be no new animations, it turns out we were proven wrong once again. Not every pack gets a ton of new animations; but frankly not every animal needs a ton of new animations. We're 6 years in guys, we've got so many rigs and animation sets, there seriously isn't a big need to reinvent the wheel every single time. It wouldn't only be a waste of resources on Frontiers end; but frankly also on our ends in terms of computing power.

We got bigger changes to the capuchin rig than people give it credit for in terms of the saki and the bush dog even got freakin deepdiving; which frankly is more animation work than adjusting a small amount of animations to have the coati with their tail in the air from time to time. And this is hardly the first time we miss these kinds of things in terms of animations, I still remember how everyone said that the lechwe was a clone whilst it got what is practically a new animation set.

I'm not saying all the previously mentioned animals are guaranteed to be added to the game, but frankly people obsess way too much about rigs and animations. We act as if that's the biggest cost but at the end of the day we have no clue if that is even remotely true. The only real insight we have on animations and rigs even points us more into the other direction if we're being honest. So all this time we've just been going off on a hunch really, but we could be wrong entirely. Like, I spent my time as a kid growing up in Brugges where there were only white swans, but that doesn't mean black swans don't exist. It's the same exact reasoning error.

Creating an entire new animation set from scratch is obviously more costly than reusing an old animation set, I'm not saying the opposite; but Frontier has the tools to edit animation sets for existing rigs and has done it time and time again, even today in a pack we describe as "clone heavy". And 6 years in, they've got plenty of base rigs and animation sets to start from; to a point where half of the time we don't even recognize it when it happens. People still think the swan is an entirely new rig from scratch whilst it's an adjusted flamingo rig and animation set. Heck, if modders hadn't found out I don't think anyone would have noticed that the Tasmanian Devil is essentially an adjusted Raccoon.

I genuinely get the pessimism though, and frankly I do think there's a bunch of animals we're not going to get regardless of the amount of work they require because they're saved as a selling point for a sequel; but I also do think that we barely got an idea of what goes into the process of deciding animals for the packs. We look at the results and base our theories on that but honestly @Topaz Star is right here, we've got no clue and we're trying to fill the blanks why our favorite animals aren't being added.

So whilst I get the pessimism; I do think we're just bringing ourselves down with scenarios where we think we're not going to get animal A or B or that we're going to get animal A but not B because A is slightly more work. I get trying to find reasons why your favorite animal wasn't added; but you're doing nothing but bringing yourself down by ruling out a bunch of animals when you at the end of the day have no clue if they're being ruled out at all.

Thank you Iben. The doom posting was becoming dire

 

[NZFanatic]

And that's where I think this whole "clone" thing just keeps falling apart over and over and over again.

Speaking for myself, there's a reason I always put "clone" in quotations. IMO there is a big difference between the original Malayan tapir and something like the white-faced saki.

But as with anything, it's all about degrees.

 

[NZFanatic]

So whilst I get the pessimism; I do think we're just bringing ourselves down with scenarios where we think we're not going to get animal A or B or that we're going to get animal A but not B because A is slightly more work. I get trying to find reasons why your favorite animal wasn't added; but you're doing nothing but bringing yourself down by ruling out a bunch of animals when you at the end of the day have no clue if they're being ruled out at all.

You also ought to remember, though, that we are in a time of uncertainty and flux regarding the game's future. People are looking at their current wishlists with more of a sense of urgency than before. And it's not like the main species people are waiting for are particularly niche.

 

[Mjmannella]

the whole thing about clones being subjective is precisely why I look to taxonomic classifiers for similar species. That's far more stable and quantifiable than just slapping the word "clone" on an species.

 

[Iben]

Speaking for myself, there's a reason I always put "clone" in quotations. IMO there is a big difference between the original Malayan tapir and something like the white-faced saki.

Oh yeah for sure; that one was the real literal reskin. Fully agree on that front.

You also ought to remember, though, that we are in a time of uncertainty and flux regarding the game's future. People are looking at their current wishlists with more of a sense of urgency than before. And it's not like the main species people are waiting for are particularly niche.

Totally get that as well; but at the same time I don't think anyone is making it better for themselves by going into this full on "doom" mode where they are flat-out eliminating animals ahead of time based on nothing but a hunch.

It's good to not be too optimistic; but there's being too pessimistic as well where you basically ignore what's right ahead of you.

 

[Aramar]

@Iben I like your reasoned posts. Sometimes I think you bring common sense to the forum where we all go crazy with our thoughts and wishes. Just for curiosity, I would like to know what do you think about the following:

If we get an African/Safari pack next with a monkey, do you think it would be likely to get a black and white colobus? Or it would be too difficult because of the hair and so we should expect something simpler like a mangabey/Diana monkey/De Brazza's monkey?

 

[Milurian]

the whole thing about clones being subjective is precisely why I look to taxonomic classifiers for similar species. That's far more stable and quantifiable than just slapping the word "clone" on an species.

See I dont agree here taxonomic classifiers have some bearing on morphology but ultimately it isnt at all definitive. The problem with "clone" as a term is it cannot be easily defined and doing it by taxon does not make sense because convergent evolution exists.

some example of taxonomy not being a good indicator

• a lion and snow leopard are more clone like than a puma and a lion
• the kiwi is closer to an emu than the rhea
• the okapi is a clone of the giraffe rather than something like the nyala
• the fallow deer being a clone of moose before an antelope

 

[Stressed Primate]

See I dont agree here taxonomic classifiers have some bearing on morphology but ultimately it isnt at all definitive. The problem with "clone" as a term is it cannot be easily defined and doing it by taxon does not make sense because convergent evolution exists.

some example of taxonomy not being a good indicator

• a lion and snow leopard are more clone like than a puma and a lion
• the kiwi is closer to an emu than the rhea
• the okapi is a clone of the giraffe rather than something like the nyala
• the fallow deer being a clone of moose before an antelope

Yeah, and then you have the people complaining about the number of ungulates and comparing it with felids, canids, and bears, when ungulates are a whole mirorder and the other three are just families. People use taxonomy very loosely when they want to make a list of priorities.

 

[Mjmannella]

• a lion and snow leopard are more clone like than a puma and a lion
• the kiwi is closer to an emu than the rhea
• the okapi is a clone of the giraffe rather than something like the nyala
• the fallow deer being a clone of moose before an antelope

A couple notes:

• Cougars being felines and not pantherines actually goes in their favour, while snow leopards are basically Himalayan tigers
• Kiwis, grassland cassowaries, and rheas are taxonomic magnitudes apart, so very separate even if they all look similar
• Giraffes and okapi are different genera, so it'd far from a bad repeat in the family
• Deer and antelope are very different and shouldn't be generalised into one. Even with similar bodyplans, fallow deer and antelope like nyalas have extremely different function in various ways. It's like saying that a jackal is more similar to a serval than a wolf

 

[NachoB]

Okay but both those animals came in their respective packs; so I don't see how that one is unrealistic. Sure will it be Sloth Bear levels of fur quality? Probably not; but frankly that's not stopping Frontier? We've literally seen that it doesn't stop them.


Not really tbh, Monsoon already did a very good approximation for the pelican on the swan with rig editing alone and you have to compare that with using crayons vs using Photoshop. Again, I feel like this is forgotten a lot, but Frontier's rigs are build with custom made tools exactly for this purpose, we've known this for years. The same basically goes for the walrus.


And that's where I think this whole "clone" thing just keeps falling apart over and over and over again. (This is more something I feel in general, not targeting this directly at you btw)

Even for this pack where tons of people were already shouting that there would be no new animations, it turns out we were proven wrong once again. Not every pack gets a ton of new animations; but frankly not every animal needs a ton of new animations. We're 6 years in guys, we've got so many rigs and animation sets, there seriously isn't a big need to reinvent the wheel every single time. It wouldn't only be a waste of resources on Frontiers end; but frankly also on our ends in terms of computing power.

We got bigger changes to the capuchin rig than people give it credit for in terms of the saki and the bush dog even got freakin deepdiving; which frankly is more animation work than adjusting a small amount of animations to have the coati with their tail in the air from time to time. And this is hardly the first time we miss these kinds of things in terms of animations, I still remember how everyone said that the lechwe was a clone whilst it got what is practically a new animation set.

I'm not saying all the previously mentioned animals are guaranteed to be added to the game, but frankly people obsess way too much about rigs and animations. We act as if that's the biggest cost but at the end of the day we have no clue if that is even remotely true. The only real insight we have on animations and rigs even points us more into the other direction if we're being honest. So all this time we've just been going off on a hunch really, but we could be wrong entirely. Like, I spent my time as a kid growing up in Brugges where there were only white swans, but that doesn't mean black swans don't exist. It's the same exact reasoning error.

Creating an entire new animation set from scratch is obviously more costly than reusing an old animation set, I'm not saying the opposite; but Frontier has the tools to edit animation sets for existing rigs and has done it time and time again, even today in a pack we describe as "clone heavy". And 6 years in, they've got plenty of base rigs and animation sets to start from; to a point where half of the time we don't even recognize it when it happens. People still think the swan is an entirely new rig from scratch whilst it's an adjusted flamingo rig and animation set. Heck, if modders hadn't found out I don't think anyone would have noticed that the Tasmanian Devil is essentially an adjusted Raccoon.

I genuinely get the pessimism though, and frankly I do think there's a bunch of animals we're not going to get regardless of the amount of work they require because they're saved as a selling point for a sequel; but I also do think that we barely got an idea of what goes into the process of deciding animals for the packs. We look at the results and base our theories on that but honestly @Topaz Star is right here, we've got no clue and we're trying to fill the blanks why our favorite animals aren't being added.

So whilst I get the pessimism; I do think we're just bringing ourselves down with scenarios where we think we're not going to get animal A or B or that we're going to get animal A but not B because A is slightly more work. I get trying to find reasons why your favorite animal wasn't added; but you're doing nothing but bringing yourself down by ruling out a bunch of animals when you at the end of the day have no clue if they're being ruled out at all.

Ok maybe is just me feeling very pessimistic, but i'll lower my expectations anyway and none of those animals will be making my speculation lists for the next packs from now on.

Because even if they are not "hard to make" there are reasons to think they are not coming anyway. For instance what yourself mentioned about the saki and bush dog getting new animations, behaviours and editing of existing sets to make them possible but still not adding the coati (that apparently was not that much of a high effort animal).

I guess the abscence of the coati hit me harder than i thought it would because i was sure it was going to be in this pack. Like really confident about it. I'm even surprised myself that I'm more bitter about missing the coati than the mara, when the latter was actually the one i wanted more (but at the same time i know it didn't have such a secure spot in PZ while the coati felt like it did, specially in this pack).

So yeah no more expecting some "favorite" animals for me. If they come then great, i would be even more excited but if they don't and we get the boring or oddball alternative at least i wouldn't be as dissapointed.

In any case i don't think we have more than one DLC left so i'll just let it be whatever it will be.

 

[Iben]

If we get an African/Safari pack next with a monkey, do you think it would be likely to get a black and white colobus? Or it would be too difficult because of the hair and so we should expect something simpler like a mangabey/Diana monkey/De Brazza's monkey?

The hair is very much the same as the markhor really. They have a physics driven mechanic that allows the hair to always point downwards and react to the animals position and animation. They've used it a bunch of times, for the cassowary, the moose and the markhor as well (although it needs a bit of an adjustment if you ask me).

Frankly, a black-and-white colobus in my eyes is as much work as a saki.

Ok maybe is just me feeling very pessimistic, but i'll lower my expectations anyway and none of those animals will be making my speculation lists for the next packs from now on.

Hey by all means, that's totally fair. I really don't want to tell you not to do that.

I just really wanted to give some push-back on this whole "animations/rig" thing, because this community really obsesses over it to a point where there's so much incorrect information going out everywhere that it's become an almost toxic thing.