Suggestion: Eliminate Economic Influence on Relay Station and Security Installation

Basically the only way to get system security is to introduce unwanted economic influence.

It is weird that you have to build a high tech influence to get to a security station which then introduces military economic influence.
The economic influence for the Relay Station and Security Installation should be erased.

it sucks having to introduce 2 unwanted economic influences just to get some system security.
 
You can put up satellites and government installations for system security without getting any economy influence. Though I agree that economic influence should be removed/reduced for all the installations/settlements/hubs that aren't strong linked to a station/port. Even small influences can ruin a economy for certain goods.

"Oh, you have .1 industy influence on your 3.6 refinery port? I guess you don't want to have insulating membranes and aluminum."
 
Even small influences can ruin a economy for certain goods.
Yes. The problem here is that weak links are too weak to be any use whatsoever for boosting desired production or consumption (the difference between 1.8 and 2.0 is rarely significant), but can very easily become strong enough to cancel it out (the difference between 0 and 0.2 can be critical). They really mess with mission generation too - that 0.05 Extraction weak link might look harmless, but it's enough to completely prevent mining missions from generating at a station!

If the player base had the collective understanding of how (hybrid) economies worked three months ago that it does now, it would never have loudly demanded that Frontier do something so silly in the first place.
 
The issue is that supply and demand are out of sync. Demand should be adjusted and made somewhat predictable if this is going to remain. I'm against removing the links as it doesn't really fix the problem just moves it somewhere else. What's next space farms?

It'd make sense to have tiers maybe 10, 25, 50, 75, 100% for demand.
For rare goods an influence of maybe 10% of the market value so 10% when it's 100 or 44% when it's 440 would remove the goods from the market.
Follow that theory up to low demand or bulk cargo may require an economy influence equal to the source market to be removed.
The majority of items should fall into the 25-50% range I expect and then we'd have some stable rules we could work with and 2 military stations or 1 high tech wouldn't be gutting a heavily reinforced economy.
If the player base had the collective understanding of how (hybrid) economies worked three months ago that it does now, it would never have loudly demanded that Frontier do something so silly in the first place.
3 months ago these hybrid economies didn't exist. This is a unique mechanic to player economies and wasn't in place initially. We couldn't have known about something nobody had ever seen. We're playing with a whole new rulebook that still doesn't match the rules the NPCs use.
 
3 months ago these hybrid economies didn't exist. This is a unique mechanic to player economies and wasn't in place initially. We couldn't have known about something nobody had ever seen. We're playing with a whole new rulebook that still doesn't match the rules the NPCs use.
Hybrid economies have been in the game from the beginning in 2014 and the ones we get in our colonies closely match their behaviour for which commodities appear and disappear at various levels of hybridisation. This is exactly the same underlying problem as the old "why are Source HE Suits missions so difficult?" just applied to something you can't Inara-search your way out of.

The way in which you construct an economy with X% refinery and Y% industrial and Z% agricultural differs from the NPC version quite substantially, yes (and differs from the version in the original colonisation release substantially, too). But the behaviour of the economy once it has those proportions is basically identical to how an NPC economy would behave in terms of which commodities it produces and which ones it consumes - to the extent that the tool I've built to predict how an economy with particular proportions behaves can be built entirely on data collected from NPC stations and still get it almost exactly right for colonisation stations (there are some issues due to low sample sizes on some commodities, but only a few).

Nothing in what is happening with weak links (or the earlier hybrid things people were building before Update 3 by other means) is any surprise at all to me. Sure, it's been a surprise to a lot of other people who didn't go around in 2018-19 looking at how NPC economies actually worked. I'm not blaming players for not knowing this stuff, because there was no reason they needed to until three months ago. But the outcome was nevertheless extremely predictable for the few of us who did look at this stuff, which is why I spent the entire time between Frontier's original "we're going to make something like weak links" post and them actually doing it two months later describing it as a "threat", and trying (largely unsuccessfully) to warn people it was coming and not to get attached to their previous system economies.



It'd make sense to have tiers maybe 10, 25, 50, 75, 100% for demand.
This is already basically the case.

Some commodities have production which generally exceeds consumption. Those can come through as production (and therefore suppress consumption) even from a very small weak link.
Some commodities have consumption which generally exceeds production. Those can come through as consumption (and therefore suppress production) even from a very small weak link. (HE Suits being the classic example)
Others have the two be basically the same. Those will be produced if their producing component is in the majority.

Most commodities also - intentionally, to add variety and make it so that every station isn't a perfect clone of every other - have ranges in their production and consumption rates. Often quite big ranges - so one station might produce ten times the fish but a quarter of the animal meat of another, even though their overall economic size is the same. This is the one bit which differs slightly between NPC and colonisation stations, in that the NPC positions on the ranges appear to be random but fixed, whereas the colonisation positions seem to be at least in part functions of the system variables like Wealth which we can ourselves update ... though treating them as random within a range even for colonisation is probably safer in practice since we know too little about the precise details of what Wealth+1 will do and you can't plan a build based on it

Then on top of that you've got BGS state effects, which don't usually apply the same state multipliers to production and to consumption. So it's possible for commodities closer to the borderline to be produced in some BGS state combinations and consumed in others. (Obviously, with colonies generally being low player activity systems, we're mostly interested in what the State:None behaviour is this time)
 
But the behaviour of the economy once it has those proportions is basically identical to how an NPC economy would behave in terms of which commodities it produces and which ones it consumes
This isn't my experience with the markets at all. Beyond the fact NPC colonies are normalised to 100% and player values are just shoot for the stars. I do and usually have done a large amount of my hauling from mixed markets. Industry/extraction being a very common major one and the crippling consumption where almost no goods are available was never a thing. There was a very notable period just before the revert where all my NPC markets suddenly lost all their relevant stock which was another point to me that they're playing by completely different rules that do not match our supply and demand %s.
 
Beyond the fact NPC colonies are normalised to 100% and player values are just shoot for the stars.
Most NPC stations add up to 1.0, but there have been a few exceptions to that for a long time.

Doesn't matter, though - it's the ratio between the two components which is primarily important, not the absolute amounts.

Industry/extraction being a very common major one and the crippling consumption where almost no goods are available was never a thing.
Industry/extraction tends to be 0.8 Industry + 0.2 Extraction.

That's not a particularly unsafe ratio for those specific two economies - you might lose a few industrial outputs, but not ones which are generally traded in anyway (and a lot of them, if it's an orbital station, the extraction component won't actually import because they're surface-only on the import side, so you get to keep them anyway). You don't lose most extraction outputs because Industry doesn't import them, and anyway you were probably going here mainly for the Industrial part because the system economy will be showing as Industrial.
(You might lose Muon Imager, except that's a surface-only export and most surface stations aren't hybridised to start with...)

That the most common hybrid economy types in the NPC stations were deliberately picked to be ones where the hybridisation mostly [1] doesn't cause major problems for the primary economy type, whereas in colonisation we can do much more broken combinations (and it's difficult to avoid doing so now!), doesn't mean that they work differently, it just means that Frontier applied some sense to its economy construction back in 2014.

[1] Except HE Suits, as always.
 
You can put up satellites and government installations for system security without getting any economy influence. Though I agree that economic influence should be removed/reduced for all the installations/settlements/hubs that aren't strong linked to a station/port. Even small influences can ruin a economy for certain goods.

"Oh, you have .1 industy influence on your 3.6 refinery port? I guess you don't want to have insulating membranes and aluminum."

True. But they are very low in comparison. A security station is 9 security points while a comms station is only 1.

Any idea how many positive security points are required to take a system from low to medium security?
 
Back
Top Bottom