ramming in CGs

Can someone explain or try to help me understand why people find it fun to ram players to death at CGs?
Im not talking about an accidental bump but ramming over and over.
How does anyone find this fun? and people wonder why there is such a big private instance only group.
 
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Shooting someone next to the station (I assume you're talking about ramming near the station) is in almost all cases [1] assault (a bounty level offence), which will lead to the station returning fire, even if the target survives. While heavily-engineered ships can take fire from the station for a little while, it's a major inconvenience to them.

Ramming is only a fine (at 100m/s or faster) for all non-killing hits, so the station won't open fire until and unless the target is destroyed.

Ramming is also legal at <100m/s even for killing hits, so the station won't open fire in that situation either.

Making the ramming rules harsher is not a possible solution to this: what will happen in that case is that you will be coming in to dock for the CG and ram a silent running Sidewinder with 2% hull left you didn't even realise was there, destroy it, and then get a bounty, a point of notoriety, and the station opening fire on you. (You might already have this happen to you if you dock manually at >=100m/s)


[1] If you're pledged to a Power which is not the system controlling Power, and your attacker is pledged to the system controlling Power, then they can shoot you freely (and should be doing so, because you might be here to undermine the system). Let's assume that's not the case this time since they're resorting to ramming.
 
[1] If you're pledged to a Power which is not the system controlling Power, and your attacker is pledged to the system controlling Power, then they can shoot you freely (and should be doing so, because you might be here to undermine the system). Let's assume that's not the case this time since they're resorting to ramming.
Indeed... we did even build ships for such purpose only.
 
Ramming unfortunately has to be seen as a legit offensive tactic. I remember when it all started out long ago when some CMDR with his Imperiel Clipper started ramming people outside George Lucus station without any repurcussions and it created a headache for the devs because at that time there was not yet a system in the game included to deal with such an offensive attack. Station would only open fire if the offending player was using weapons in it's range. Also even the PDT if it was responding to some incoming ordinance would be considerd a weapon so the defending player would also get shot at by the station...

I racked up a ton of 100CR fines last night finishing off the trade CG just playing in solo for practicality reasons when I ended up pranging lots of NPC ships coming into the slot as I was in more of a hurry to get out. It happens a lot, and more in open when the mail slot gets even more crowded and human players are more likely to take risks than NPCs who 100% faithfully abide by the speed limit and lane laws.

If we had a shoot-to-kill on site and larger fine or bounty with more serious rammifications (no pun intended) for <100m/s ramming it would be far more of a problem for traders. My advice is don't fly in open unless your trader build has excellent shields, and play it safe the 'carebear' way in solo or group if you want less agro, without being ashamed or allowing other players to shame you into playing open all the time. If you are flying a shieldless trader which would be vulnerable to ramming attacks <100ms that isn't a good idea in any game mode to TBH. If you've got a few hundred MJ on a type 9 for your shield you ought to still be able to tank a few sub 100m/s ram attacks. Personally I wouldn't recommend flying a T9 in open mode at all though shielded for not. Wait until you've got a Cutter, you will be almost invulnerable and can survive trading in open when you want more of a thrill with much greater confidence.
 
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Surely there must be a way to keep a count on how many times a commander rams another vessels over a set period of time.

We all have the odd collision when using a docking station but excessive amounts of ramming over short periods of time should lead to action being taken by the station authorities.
 
We all have the odd collision when using a docking station but excessive amounts of ramming over short periods of time should lead to action being taken by the station authorities.
The tricky thing is determining who to take action against.

If there's one rammer and one victim, both have an equal number of ship-to-ship collisions in the same time window (or if the victim is unlucky they have a couple more as the rammer punted them into someone else). So which one do you want the station to shoot?

If there's one rammer and multiple victims, sure, the rammer's count is higher (though probably easily reset by a short hop to supercruise once a bit of experimentation has been done on the thresholds) ... but in the reverse situation where there's two rammers, the victim's collision count is going to go up considerably faster than either of their attackers.
 
The tricky thing is determining who to take action against.

If there's one rammer and one victim, both have an equal number of ship-to-ship collisions in the same time window (or if the victim is unlucky they have a couple more as the rammer punted them into someone else). So which one do you want the station to shoot?

If there's one rammer and multiple victims, sure, the rammer's count is higher (though probably easily reset by a short hop to supercruise once a bit of experimentation has been done on the thresholds) ... but in the reverse situation where there's two rammers, the victim's collision count is going to go up considerably faster than either of their attackers.
I agree there is not going to be an easy fix to cover all possible scenarios, although should work where there is one rammer and multiple victims. Something clearly has to be done.
 
I agree there is not going to be an easy fix to cover all possible scenarios
Do FDev need to cover all possible scenarios or just enough to make it prohibitive for the bad actor? e.g.
  • Every player gets a permanent hidden "Player kill count" value, so you can identify those who've killed others
  • Every player gets a permanent hidden "Player ram kill count" value to identify when their actions caused a station to open fire on another player
Now if there is a ram, the station opens fire on the Player who has killed more players, or if they are the same, then the player who has caused more deaths via ramming.
Even if a player creates a new account (lets assume wiping their save does reset these, it might be better not to), then the bad actor still only gets one chance at mischief before the system knows they are likely to be causing the problem.

The problem here is that we are fixing only one edge case. I wonder how many edge cases exist?
 
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I agree there is not going to be an easy fix to cover all possible scenarios, although should work where there is one rammer and multiple victims. Something clearly has to be done.
The problem comes when the "fix" itself opens up new avenues for attackers to use and creates new victims, as happened the last time Frontier tried to fix station ramming because "something" clearly had to be done.

Ramming used to be entirely legal around stations. People took advantage of this to flatten smaller ships by boosting into them with heavy ships (and if didn't kill them, hit them again). Frontier introduced the 100m/s speed limit rule in the no fire zone. This introduced the whole new form of ramming attack where a silent running Sidewinder could cause the station to open fire on an innocent (if rather uncautious) trader in a big expensive ship. Previously, an attacker trying that would obviously just find themselves down one Sidewinder and their intended victim barely inconvenienced.

Any automated set of ramming rules will be exploitable. The more complicated it gets to avoid the "easy" exploits, the fewer players will understand how it works at all, but of course the people who specialise in ramming others to death outside stations will know them inside out, build ships to best use them, etc.



That's not to say that a fix is impossible - in fact, it's fairly straightforward: stations just need to enforce traffic control to a similar degree to that used in 21st-century airspace but with ED's excessive levels of violence, so that "intent to ram" is obvious - it's the player who's well outside their assigned traffic lane, who can be shot down long before they actually collide with anyone, and if they both were flying badly the station is fine to shoot both of them.
1) All ships must maintain a safe separation at all times. A safe separation is "at least two kilometres" not "didn't actually collide".
2) Only one ship may be interacting with traffic control in the most critical zone at any time. Ships will be queued on the launch pad and not released into the station interior, or queued at safe and separated holding zones outside the station, so that only one at a time can be going through the "mailbox traversal" process. (Stations with external docking can be a bit more efficient about this, but only a bit)
3) The station NFZ will be extended to around 20km to give sufficient space for separated holding zones. "Repeater" weapon platforms (like outposts have near them) will be positioned throughout the NFZ to ensure full coverage. Entering the NFZ at all will require a clearance request.
4) Disobeying traffic control orders by leaving your assigned zone or docking route will be a bounty-level "loitering/trespass" offence causing the station and its auxiliary weapons platforms to open fire. There will of course be additional HUD indicators and holomarkers to indicate to ships where their next waypoint is, and when it is their turn to move towards it. This will be enforced for both coming in to dock, and also for safely departing the station masslock radius before entering supercruise or hyperspace.

What's the catch? The catch is that of course this also has to apply to the 99.99999% of times players will be docking when there isn't a hostile CMDR in the same instance (because it can't suddenly switch into "proper traffic control" mode when the second player drops in, it has to be prepared in advance) and for all but the hardcore simulationists this will be a major hassle.
 
The problem comes when the "fix" itself opens up new avenues for attackers to use and creates new victims, as happened the last time Frontier tried to fix station ramming because "something" clearly had to be done.

Ramming used to be entirely legal around stations. People took advantage of this to flatten smaller ships by boosting into them with heavy ships (and if didn't kill them, hit them again). Frontier introduced the 100m/s speed limit rule in the no fire zone. This introduced the whole new form of ramming attack where a silent running Sidewinder could cause the station to open fire on an innocent (if rather uncautious) trader in a big expensive ship. Previously, an attacker trying that would obviously just find themselves down one Sidewinder and their intended victim barely inconvenienced.

Any automated set of ramming rules will be exploitable. The more complicated it gets to avoid the "easy" exploits, the fewer players will understand how it works at all, but of course the people who specialise in ramming others to death outside stations will know them inside out, build ships to best use them, etc.



That's not to say that a fix is impossible - in fact, it's fairly straightforward: stations just need to enforce traffic control to a similar degree to that used in 21st-century airspace but with ED's excessive levels of violence, so that "intent to ram" is obvious - it's the player who's well outside their assigned traffic lane, who can be shot down long before they actually collide with anyone, and if they both were flying badly the station is fine to shoot both of them.
1) All ships must maintain a safe separation at all times. A safe separation is "at least two kilometres" not "didn't actually collide".
2) Only one ship may be interacting with traffic control in the most critical zone at any time. Ships will be queued on the launch pad and not released into the station interior, or queued at safe and separated holding zones outside the station, so that only one at a time can be going through the "mailbox traversal" process. (Stations with external docking can be a bit more efficient about this, but only a bit)
3) The station NFZ will be extended to around 20km to give sufficient space for separated holding zones. "Repeater" weapon platforms (like outposts have near them) will be positioned throughout the NFZ to ensure full coverage. Entering the NFZ at all will require a clearance request.
4) Disobeying traffic control orders by leaving your assigned zone or docking route will be a bounty-level "loitering/trespass" offence causing the station and its auxiliary weapons platforms to open fire. There will of course be additional HUD indicators and holomarkers to indicate to ships where their next waypoint is, and when it is their turn to move towards it. This will be enforced for both coming in to dock, and also for safely departing the station masslock radius before entering supercruise or hyperspace.

What's the catch? The catch is that of course this also has to apply to the 99.99999% of times players will be docking when there isn't a hostile CMDR in the same instance (because it can't suddenly switch into "proper traffic control" mode when the second player drops in, it has to be prepared in advance) and for all but the hardcore simulationists this will be a major hassle.
I didn’t even know ramming was a long-standing issue until I started reading this thread. Reading your post does show me that it doesn’t look like there are any easy ways to sort this, and any which do will only go to slow the whole docking process down.

That is a shame because this kind of action will push more players into Solo mode. I occasionally play in Open but rarely do so when it comes to CG’s as the letterbox is often blocked.
 
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