Current Power play what’s up

[Ian Doncaster]

Isn’t that what fdev wanted to encourage , the whole undermining thing and not a static bunch of fortified and stronghold systems just looking at each other

Certainly - but Frontier haven't really done anything to encourage that yet [1], and if they did it'd be unlikely to show up as focused undermining of one or two systems a week.

It is certainly the case that if Frontier somehow did succeed in making undermining reasonably balanced with reinforcement, this level of activity would be barely remarkable because there'd be about 30 million control points of undermining going on weekly (where an extra 1 million is well within normal variation) rather than about 5 million. Losing systems would be a normal event rather than an all-hands-on-deck emergency.

[1] Their recent change wasn't really any more than "asking nicely", and was also accompanied by the re-enabling of rares which can't be used for undermining but can be quite effective for reinforcement, so the overall effect on the balance of undermining and reinforcement was essentially undetectable.

It also seems that the parties responsible are taking pains to cover their tracks because these massive merit amounts haven't shown up on the leader boards so they are likely leaving their power and re-pledging.

Or the group involved is large enough that none of them individually make it to the top 10 anyway. Given the quantities discussed, a group of 20 or so (which could be fewer actual people with a bunch of alts) wouldn't get anywhere near the individual top 10 positions in a week if they all contributed about evenly.

 

[Danieros]

Or the group involved is large enough that none of them individually make it to the top 10 anyway. Given the quantities discussed, a group of 20 or so (which could be fewer actual people with a bunch of alts) wouldn't get anywhere near the individual top 10 positions in a week if they all contributed about evenly.

Well, if they were in a squadron, they would have no problem at all being #1 by a large margin - more than the current top 1-2 and maybe even 3... combined.

Visible control point numbers won't count last hour turn-ins, which is actually when most of these merits seem to be happening.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Well, if they were in a squadron, they would have no problem at all being #1 by a large margin - more than the current top 1-2 and maybe even 3... combined.

That does require the squadron to have a power configured, and that power to match that of the members doing the undermining.
(And since it's undermining, they're not even necessarily all pledged to the same power)

A group trying to stay low-profile could do that, since the leaderboard position is the only benefit you get from giving a squadron a Power anyway.

Visible control point numbers won't count last hour turn-ins, which is actually when most of these merits seem to be happening.

Not yet, true.

But is the amount all that high? The figures I've seen quoted are in the 500-700k region for undermining CPs at Sol last cycle. Sol this week so far has >700k reinforcement CPs with about a third of the week to go and (obviously) no-one is going around accusing Archer players of cheating to do that because it's a perfectly plausible number for a bunch of players to collectively achieve. (Sol is the highest but there are three other systems already over 500k reinforcement too)

So why is a similar [1] amount of undermining CPs in a week considered instantly suspicious? I don't see why this couldn't just be the usual:
- stack up a bunch of Odyssey data during the week
- hand it in at the last minute
and the only unusual bit is "with lots of players/alt accounts" so that the per-player data cap doesn't limit the size of the attack too much

[1] Yes, I know there's things like the SSP which mean it's not directly comparable, but that's not so severe it couldn't be overcome by making the hypothetical attacker group a bit larger.

 

[cmdr kruzer70]

I can't remember the Grom system but I think it was Bill Mina or something. It got hit with 1.2 million control points. I believe the same time that other systems of theirs were attacked.

I don't really care if it 'suspicious' or not. If it is Oddy data then my objection is that if they are going to disable 'bombing' by other levers such as carriers 'washing' trade goods then Oddy data should have the same restriction. Being able to save up merits is a pretty big strategic weapon.

 

[Bigmaec]

On Reddit this reads much more dramatic

And oh dear, Sol will be lost... to ALD, not the thargoids... The horror...

So fishy ay or nay? Reading @Ian Doncaster it sounds possible, reading reddit it's blatant cheating. Any ideas?

 

[O'Roarke]

Pushing 6k cps/hour reinforcement is possible just fine.
Not sure how the numbers are for undermining, but let's say 4k cps/hour for that.

Haven't paid close attention to this, ran less then a handful of sorties for Sol - because in it just for the modules.
That -1.8M cps undermine happened in a single day iirc.

This is 450 hours worth of effort, then. So 150 sweaty players putting in 3 hours a day could do that undermine just fine.

Now imagine all twelve Powers have 15 sweaty players that are "in on it". That'd be 165 CDMRs available to undermine any power.
Now suppose they all have the same mindset as Ian (lamenting the passive/pacifistic nature of PP) but they're actually willing to put in some sweat equity to "stir the pot".

With success.

Because 165 players is about ten percent of the entire Archer playerbase.
It's probably not possible to coordinate the top ten percent players of Archer, even if you wanted to...
...so this undermine cannot be countered by organized play within Archer.

Must be frustrating for the peeps that care!

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Not sure how the numbers are for undermining, but let's say 4k cps/hour for that.

I got about 4k/hour back when I was trying out undermining, and that was nowhere near optimal method or process, so I'd expect faster is possible. But on the other hand Sol has Very High system strength penalty, which applies a significant nerf to undermining (but not to reinforcement!), so 4k/hr probably is fair as a starting point.

Of course, if the attackers picked a Power with a suitable ethos bonus for some the activities they're using, they get up to +50% on top of that, so it might be a bit higher again.

That -1.8M cps undermine happened in a single day iirc.

This is 450 hours worth of effort, then. So 150 sweaty players putting in 3 hours a day could do that undermine just fine.

It was probably done by the Odyssey data download / settlement goods method. Unlike most Powerplay merits, it's possible to stockpile the items needed fairly easily and then hand them all in at once. So the time taken to hand them in probably isn't representative here.
(Exploration and Exobio also have this option on the reinforcement side, but are much less time-efficient for collection)

Even assuming they didn't have any saved up from previous weeks, they therefore had six days rather than one. So if we assume 4k/hour over 6 days at 3 hours per day ... suddenly it only needs 25 players [1] rather than 150.

If they have the 50% ethos bonus on top of that, it's closer to 6k/hour and only needs about 15-20 highly-active players.

That's still a big group, given the necessary activity level, but certainly not impossibly so.


[1] I haven't done the sums to work out if 25 players have a large enough Odyssey inventory limit to do that, or whether they'd need a bunch of alt accounts too. But it doesn't change the number of people involved either way.

 

[De_Toqueville]

It was probably done by the Odyssey data download / settlement goods method. Unlike most Powerplay merits, it's possible to stockpile the items needed fairly easily and then hand them all in at once. So the time taken to hand them in probably isn't representative here.
(Exploration and Exobio also have this option on the reinforcement side, but are much less time-efficient for collection)

[1] I haven't done the sums to work out if 25 players have a large enough Odyssey inventory limit to do that, or whether they'd need a bunch of alt accounts too. But it doesn't change the number of people involved either way.

1.8m Control points for the Sol with the current penalty would be beyond 25 players Full Data inventory limit from rough estimates. It might be on the bleeding edge of what 25 could do if they didnt gather poorer scoring data.

 

[Danieros]

Sol Powerplay Update

Greetings commanders, We have been closely monitoring the Powerplay situation in Sol and a number of other affected systems. We are aware of a recent increase in undermining scores impacting the powerplay status of those systems, and have taken action to address the situation. To prevent...

forums.frontier.co.uk