To architects: Try for a T2/T3 station!

[kepler68]

I've seen a bunch of people discussing how to get a shipyard on an outpost (Sadly you cannot right now, cheapest method is a T1 surface port plus high tech level and a hub), so i wanted to encourage people to try for a higher-end starport than you think you can manage! (Assuming it's not your primary/initial station!)

Subsequent (Non-primary) ports have no time limit, and are around 20% cheaper than your initial claim would have been. Plus you get to pick where they go.

A Coriolis/Asteroid base is around equal to 2.5 Outposts worth of tons
An Orbis/Ocellus/Planetary City is around equal to 4 Coriolises.

If you can build a T1 primary, you can make a T2 station in your system! Same with a T2 primary having a T3! You'll get a large orbital pad, locally sourced materials, and way more parking spots for your friends or squadron once it's finished. Additionally, a T2 will offer all services with just a comms station/relay station/sattelite around the same object, while a T3 offers all services out of the box without any hassle (Aside from 35 tech level >'s total).

You all can do this! Wont be built in a day sure, but when it's done you'll have a new place to call home o7

 

[Xenia_K]

if I go for self-supplying system(/bubble) usually I build HT/Ind/Agri as Outposts, Refinery System starting with a civilian outpost around the Rocky-World and then build a Coriolis and a civilian T1 Port (all already from local supply)....
From my POV the most efficient way, as HT/Ind/Agri one doesn´t need more than supplied by Outpost....

 

[AZSlow3]

if I go for self-supplying system(/bubble) usually I build ...

At the moment, I have managed only one self-supply bubble. And I don't think I will create yet another one in foreseeable future

.. while a T3 offers all services out of the box without any hassle (Aside from 35 tech level >'s total).

You all can do this! Wont be built in a day sure, but when it's done you'll have a new place to call home o7

Once I have started constructing my first T3, in my self-supply bubble, so within almost perfect construction conditions, I have decided to make a "pause" in colonization... 250+ deliveries is just too much to do in "one go" for lonely architect. Is it possible? Sure.

The problem the result is not "your home". Unlike carrier, it is not and it will never be "yours". After finishing, the station is the same as thousands of other. Except you are allowed to name it

 

[Pville_Piper]

Once I have started constructing my first T3, in my self-supply bubble, so within almost perfect construction conditions, I have decided to make a "pause" in colonization... 250+ deliveries is just too much to do in "one go" for lonely architect. Is it possible? Sure.

The problem the result is not "your home". Unlike carrier, it is not and it will never be "yours". After finishing, the station is the same as thousands of other. Except you are allowed to name it

Yeah, I don't mind the T2 orbital, but I have one T3 and I don't know when I will finish it, but I will.

I doubt I will ever build a T3 Surface port.

Right now I'm building out my third system and it looks like it will be self supplying. If it is, I'll build out the second system using it.

Next I want a high tech system...

 

[cblue22]

I have a system that can basically sustain a bubble on it's own. The only thing it doesn't have is a High Tech port. It's also missing Insulating Membranes. If you want to check the system out, it's HIP 85763.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

It's better to start out with an outpost and then build a Coriolis, since the first station is a lot more expensive in commodities.

A T3 port though I don't think I'll ever go at it solo.

 

[PilotB]

It's better to start out with an outpost and then build a Coriolis, since the first station is a lot more expensive in commodities.

That isn't quite true. The first station is more expensive but that expense is paying for the points to build the station at a big discount. Starting with a coriolis gets you the coriolis for around 73k. That's only about 10kt more than a coriolis usually costs. It's around 84k for just an outpost and coriolis so it's a more expensive way to get a coriolis if you build it second. It's not a 1:1 comparison as you're getting links and effects going outpost first that you don't get by starting with a big port first.

The calculation just comes down to is the primary body helpful to your plan and do you have resources available to build with. If you want a coriolis around the primary body then you can save commodities starting with it. If you don't like the location it's a no brainer to start with an outpost. For players the have the capacity or desire to haul a ridiculous amount of cargo a t3 follows the same logic but most players probably won't want to haul a t3 in a month as it's a huge amount of game time dedicated to the task.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

That isn't quite true. The first station is more expensive but that expense is paying for the points to build the station at a big discount. Starting with a coriolis gets you the coriolis for around 73k. That's only about 10kt more than a coriolis usually costs. It's around 84k for just an outpost and coriolis so it's a more expensive way to get a coriolis if you build it second. It's not a 1:1 comparison as you're getting links and effects going outpost first that you don't get by starting with a big port first.

The calculation just comes down to is the primary body helpful to your plan and do you have resources available to build with. If you want a coriolis around the primary body then you can save commodities starting with it. If you don't like the location it's a no brainer to start with an outpost. For players the have the capacity or desire to haul a ridiculous amount of cargo a t3 follows the same logic but most players probably won't want to haul a t3 in a month as it's a huge amount of game time dedicated to the task.

Yeah, it's the second part that's the most true. Ideally you start with an outpost if the 'primary port' location is not where you want to build a Coriolis. If it is though, say you want an Orbis around an ELW, and the primary port is exactly in the ELW, then tough luck, gotta start big.

The other bit is the time: You got 4 weeks to complete the primary port, you got infinite time for whatever you build next in there. Starting out with a Coriolis might then also be a mistake even if it's more expensive in the long run to start with the outpost, because if you got a job and aren't the most dedicated hauler you might run out of time. This is specially true for an Orbis.

 

[PilotB]

The other bit is the time: You got 4 weeks to complete the primary port, you got infinite time for whatever you build next in there. Starting out with a Coriolis might then also be a mistake even if it's more expensive in the long run to start with the outpost, because if you got a job and aren't the most dedicated hauler you might run out of time. This is specially true for an Orbis.

A coriolis is about 100 cargo loads for a large hauler. 3 loads per hour is a low but sustainable rate. If you can average 9 or more hours play time per week for 4 weeks. You can do a coriolis comfortably within the time frame. Most players with carriers should be able to do a full outpost in about 8 hours without pushing too hard so a Coriolis is attainable for many but not all. If you can do an outpost in a week or less you can comfortably pick a t2 if it's suitable. T3 is always a personal choice as a solo pilot doesn't get any advantage from the massive market and all the extra hauling. For me a t3 isn't a viable option but I know people who regularly slam them down in 10-12 days solo.

 

[Kzak]

I'm waiting with T3 ports until I have the Panther Clipper, personally.

 

[AZSlow3]

A coriolis is about 100 cargo loads for a large hauler. 3 loads per hour is a low but sustainable rate. If you can average 9 or more hours play time per week for 4 weeks. You can do a coriolis comfortably within the time frame. Most players with carriers should be able to do a full outpost in about 8 hours without pushing too hard so a Coriolis is attainable for many but not all. If you can do an outpost in a week or less you can comfortably pick a t2 if it's suitable. T3 is always a personal choice as a solo pilot doesn't get any advantage from the massive market and all the extra hauling. For me a t3 isn't a viable option but I know people who regularly slam them down in 10-12 days solo.

Primary Coriolis is 90 loads. Constructing with carrier is up to 6 loads per hour (12 trips to/from carrier). Constructing directly is up to 8.5 loads per hour, when refinery and construction site are at good positions (up to 12 loads per hour when constructing planetary from the nearest planetary).

I mean constructing Coriolis with 3-4 loads per hour is painfully slow. Making good planetary refinery in nearby system (normally target good system is claimed after one or more "bridge" systems) may make sense (Primary T1 + Planetary T1 + Refinery is around 95 loads, but at least that gives good "constructing plant", unlike Coriolis at ELW, from which you can build with 7+ loads per hour rate).

T3 (not primary) is 270 loads. So even in good condition you need haul 3-4 hours to make it in 10 days. Many m8s play 3+ hours per day, but not many are ready to do this particular activity 3 hours per day, 10 days in a row. Constructing is most boring thing ever existed in ED (doing exactly the same thing, without any variation, without any randomization, without any challenge... )

 

[PilotB]

I mean constructing Coriolis with 3-4 loads per hour is painfully slow.

I was giving a fairly pessimistic evaluation but if you're building a primary port without a carrier you do not have any resources in system. I've got a lot of tracking data by now for cargo moved. 3 loads per hour is about what I have had to deal with for the last 120kt trying to setup a colony. It's a very realistic number for someone setting up a new system as you haven't managed to build your own stuff yet and you're not dealing with optimal conditions.

Sure once you've got your supply base up you can go fast. I can move 6000t/hr from a carrier but that same ship gets about 2100t/hr in reality when having to slap down a colony from whatever happens to be available nearby. There are a lot of elements at play but jumps take time, 1500ly from the star each time takes time. Builds will more often than not, not be nice and right by the star for very quick turn around times. All that extra adds up fast. Yes it's painfully slow but that's colonisation in a nut shell.

My point was that even under rather crappy conditions a coriolis is relatively attainable for many players. The situation can absolutely be improved from there but the numbers are realistic.

 

[Frankymole]

You all can do this! Wont be built in a day sure, but when it's done you'll have a new place to call home o7

My Orbis took 32 days, off and on, with a little help from friends. Definitely worthwhile!
Am doing a Coriolis when the Panther is out...

 

[Pville_Piper]

I've built 3 Coriolis so far solo... Usually in less than a week. I don't think that they are too bad to do.

I have an orbis started, but I think I will wait until I get the surface installations completed first. We'll see if the PC helps any.

 

[AZSlow3]

I was giving a fairly pessimistic evaluation but if you're building a primary port without a carrier you do not have any resources in system. I've got a lot of tracking data by now for cargo moved. 3 loads per hour is about what I have had to deal with for the last 120kt trying to setup a colony. It's a very realistic number for someone setting up a new system as you haven't managed to build your own stuff yet and you're not dealing with optimal conditions.

Sure once you've got your supply base up you can go fast. I can move 6000t/hr from a carrier but that same ship gets about 2100t/hr in reality when having to slap down a colony from whatever happens to be available nearby. There are a lot of elements at play but jumps take time, 1500ly from the star each time takes time. Builds will more often than not, not be nice and right by the star for very quick turn around times. All that extra adds up fast. Yes it's painfully slow but that's colonisation in a nut shell.

My point was that even under rather crappy conditions a coriolis is relatively attainable for many players. The situation can absolutely be improved from there but the numbers are realistic.

I want clarify my point... If you construct with 3 loads per hour, there can be more then one reason:

1) not "optimal" play style. The indication is the speed you get in good conditions, because there can be (2) bad conditions. F.e. constructing from the same or nearest system, with under 3kls distances, should be 6 or more. Slower hauling means something can be changed to make it faster, including: the ship it not optimally engineered (for cargo), SCO use can be improved (can work "from behind" the star on arrival, make sense at any distances starting ~4Mm, sometimes even less), FSA is not used, planetary landing approach is not optimal, etc. Please don't get me wrong, I have started with "platinum transporter" without FSA, was using SCO on long distances only and my planetary landing was awful. I had 3-4 from the nearest/2 jumps at that time.

2) bad superposition (supply or construction are too far from stars or more then one jump between systems). My previous comment was about that. How comes to such "bad" situation?
1. If your primary slot is too far from the star, that is not a good slot and so usually there is no reason to build Coriolis there
2. If there are several jumps to supply, that usually means you have "bridge" systems. In most cases your own (to claim current "good" system). In this case you can build infrastructure there first, that will be faster (less jumps from supply) and building from there will be faster too (after initial Coriolis you normally build other things).
3. If supply is far from the star, there is no other and you don't have own "bridge" systems... Well, in this case I can agree ~3 or even lower is what you have and can't change

About T3 and Carrier... Grinding to get Carrier and then constructing T3 using it can take less time then constructing T3 with 3 loads per hour. And then you own carrier (the only station you can really own) and use it for all ED activities.
I will even make a stronger claim: when someone has no carrier, there is no reason to play colonization part, except when you have managed to claim "very good" system with existing supply in one jump. Or just want to "try" colonization, in which case a single outpost is sufficient to get the idea (unlike with all other activities, colonization is just doing exactly the same thing all the time, no difference between constructing different facilities).

 

[Pville_Piper]

I will even make a stronger claim: when someone has no carrier, there is no reason to play colonization part, except when you have managed to claim "very good" system with existing supply in one jump. Or just want to "try" colonization, in which case a single outpost is sufficient to get the idea (unlike with all other activities, colonization is just doing exactly the same thing all the time, no difference between constructing different facilities).

That's a pretty harsh assessment... I don't have a FC, and no desire to own one. But I do have 4 systems under active development. And yes, good supplies are just one jump away even though I do try to use my own system resources which potentially means that I make a 3 stop round trip, 1 to the supplier and 2 back to the construction site.

What's a good system? Every commander has different criteria. I'm not even sure if I have any.

As far as the same activity over and over the same can be said for combat, exploration, mining, ect.

Combat is repetitive - see enemy, target, shoot, destroy, collect bounty, repeat.

Exploration - jump to system, honk, refuel, system scan, surface scan, repeat.

Mining - launch prospector, laser the rock, wait for collectors to gather desired ore, repeat.

Some of us enjoy flying the ships, nailing the approach and landings in a T-9 or Cutter is challenging and rewarding in and of itself. On a good night I can make a round trip in 5 minutes, easily making 9 or 10 trips in an hour and keeping that pace up is also a challenge.

In short, I enjoy the activity because I found a way to make it challenging. Flying the ships is what I enjoy, tinkering with a colony icing on the cake.

 

[AZSlow3]

That's a pretty harsh assessment... I don't have a FC, and no desire to own one.

FC is essentially the only station you can own. You can "construct" it by any kind of grinding, including trading (technically the same as colonization) and you can control what it does (import/export/services/etc) and where it is.

Many players write "I don't have it", but I have not seen any single good reason why. At least in scope of colonization (before a good reason was "I don't like grinding", but colonization is just that).

But I do have 4 systems under active development. And yes, good supplies are just one jump away even though I do try to use my own system resources which potentially means that I make a 3 stop round trip, 1 to the supplier and 2 back to the construction site.

I also have several. And for most constructions I deliver directly. But to increase security without military I need many slots, so I use "bad" slots. They are 300kls away from the primary star. Cutter barely has fuel to reach that with SCO and it still takes a lot of time. Constructing there without FC is technically waiting 90% of the time. ED is a game, I enjoy playing games, not endless waiting doing nothing.

What's a good system? Every commander has different criteria. I'm not even sure if I have any.

"Good system" is 100% subjective in this game. With some of my systems I have changed my mind over time

As far as the same activity over and over the same can be said for combat, exploration, mining, ect.
Combat is repetitive - see enemy, target, shoot, destroy, collect bounty, repeat.
Exploration - jump to system, honk, refuel, system scan, surface scan, repeat.
Mining - launch prospector, laser the rock, wait for collectors to gather desired ore, repeat.

Enemies have variety (except 4x intercepted by Condas during delivery missions... can be fun, but only the first 10-20 times...).
You always "explore" different systems. People normally enjoy "new views", a kind of (real live) turist activity.
Mining is "random" (except when mapped not in RES). In Bio you have to "find" the place. There are variations in settlement types and personal routes when raiding or CZ.
Also in combat you can use different ships/outfits and corresponding approaches, with no single "the best".

Constructing... is flying from the very same supply station to very same destination. Disposition changes slowly. The first 100-200 times you can "improve" you flying skills, but at some point you reach the limit. There are just 3 reasonable ships, with one (T8) you have to make 2 time more trips and another (T9) is in everything worse then the best. So, in practice you are forced to use one ship to keep hauling "optimal".

Some of us enjoy flying the ships, nailing the approach and landings in a T-9 or Cutter is challenging and rewarding in and of itself. On a good night I can make a round trip in 5 minutes, easily making 9 or 10 trips in an hour and keeping that pace up is also a challenge.

As I wrote, the first 100 times it can be challening. Different ships/routes/fights with pirats create some challenge/fun in trading like activity. In colonization, the only variation is where you construct (source is "fixed", ship is the same, hauling ship can't fight). So constructing within 10-20 loads is fine. But 200+ times (T3) is just boring and nothing else.

It took a while till FDevs removed "power regulators grinding" from Odyssey, may be they consider reduce T3 grinding as well in 2-3 years. Or at least make T3 somehow meaningful, I mean give more reasons to construct it. I am reading some people play with "factions"/"powers", so BGS. At the moment new station owner faction is random, when T3 falls into "wrong hands" and the system population is exploaded (both are automatic and unavoidable), influencing BGS is way harder.

BTW making real (including loading and unloading) 9 trips to the nearest system is hard, 10 is almost impossible (landing, "rotating", charging FSD, jump itself, etc. take almost fixed amount of time).

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Many players write "I don't have it", but I have not seen any single good reason why.

For colonisation purposes, I have one, but I don't use it for colonising because it's in Colonia and I can't be bothered to move it. I wouldn't gain back the time needed to go to Colonia, empty its current hold, refill it with enough Tritium to make the trip, then jump it for 15+ hours. I wouldn't have made back that time investment yet - not even close - on the small per-trip savings of using a carrier.

From my point of view - and obviously other people will experience it differently:
- A-B hauling without a carrier, provided the commodities are all available reasonably locally at 1-2 jumps (which they are in my case, because I have one system and it's close to the original bubble), is not that much slower than using an intermediate carrier, especially when going to surface sites at either end
- hauling with a carrier is less varied in terms of source and destination, so I'd get bored more easily
- I'm mainly building smaller stuff (settlements, etc.) with <10kT requirements, so a carrier is a bit wasted on that anyway even if I only use it for the Refinery portion. Sure, I could fill up multiple settlements worth of stuff at once but (looks around nervously) I'm terribly non-optimal so I don't actually plan my system build and shopping list that far ahead.
- I'm also mainly only doing maybe one or two runs a day in-between doing other things (using the system I've built for combat, missions, etc.) so it's more motivating to do a couple of local hauling runs and see +15% on construction progress than it is to do a couple of carrier loading runs and see nothing and then be in the wrong system for the other stuff as well.

None of this of course is telling you that you shouldn't use a carrier. There are plenty of cases where it makes things a lot easier, and even outside those cases you might personally find it more fun even though it's less efficient.

 

[Pville_Piper]

FC is essentially the only station you can own. You can "construct" it by any kind of grinding, including trading (technically the same as colonization) and you can control what it does (import/export/services/etc) and where it is.

Fair enough, but for the systems I'm colonizing are all small. For the most part, it's a 2 jump round trip. Why would I add an extra round trip? To me, the only use for a carrier is if your system is more than 2 jumps from supplies or your system is very large and you want to cut down on transit time from the star to drop off point. My furthest point in all 4 systems is < 5000ls and I'm one jump away from 95% of my supplies.

Many players write "I don't have it", but I have not seen any single good reason why. At least in scope of colonization (before a good reason was "I don't like grinding", but colonization is just that).

Depends on the grind, some are worse than others, varies person to person. I don't have a carrier because I've never seen a use for it with the way I play. The only time I felt a need is during the thargoid war when it would have been nice to have ships and modules follow me.

I also have several. And for most constructions I deliver directly. But to increase security without military I need many slots, so I use "bad" slots. They are 300kls away from the primary star. Cutter barely has fuel to reach that with SCO and it still takes a lot of time. Constructing there without FC is technically waiting 90% of the time. ED is a game, I enjoy playing games, not endless waiting doing nothing.

Again, I don't build in those systems for a simple reason, weak links making mixed economies the don't sell anything worth while. A small system that has the right planets to build a single economy seems best at this stage.

You always "explore" different systems. People normally enjoy "new views", a kind of (real live) turist activity.

To me, exploration is nothing more than a screen shot simulator... No reason to leave the bubble for that.

Mining is "random" (except when mapped not in RES). In Bio you have to "find" the place. There are variations in settlement types and personal routes when raiding or CZ.
Also in combat you can use different ships/outfits and corresponding approaches, with no single "the best".

But it's still a repetitive gameplay loop at its core, but combat and mining are something I enjoy.

Constructing... is flying from the very same supply station to very same destination. Disposition changes slowly. The first 100-200 times you can "improve" you flying skills, but at some point you reach the limit. There are just 3 reasonable ships, with one (T8) you have to make 2 time more trips

Just like using a carrier...

and another (T9) is in everything worse then the best. So, in practice you are forced to use one ship to keep hauling "optimal".

I actually prefer the T-9 over the Cutter as it is much more forgiving. I actually don't loose much time with it compared to the Cutter because it is more forgiving. You have to be on the ball, ahead of the ship 100% of the time with the Cutter or it will bite you. Recovering from an overspeed on approach is painful with the Cutter if you become distracted at the wrong time.

BTW making real (including loading and unloading) 9 trips to the nearest system is hard, 10 is almost impossible (landing, "rotating", charging FSD, jump itself, etc. take almost fixed amount of time).

Nope, you just have to get into a rhythm and not miss a beat. This is where the T-9 excels over the Cutter for me as it is more predictable. I can fly the Cutter well and not overshoot, but you have to slow down way out and keep it very slow close near the pad or or station.

 

[tomalus]

its not "hard" to do, its very repetetive,boring and time consuming