New ship: Panther Clipper

Elyssaen

E
Rat Catcher said:
Original yes, conservative yes, balanced yes...
About sums your wonder up.
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I'm honestly not sure what you're saying. Were you the one who talked about how people who didn't agree with you about the Panther's design actively didn't like having fun?

Ian Doncaster said:
If we're talking FE2 nostalgia, the cargo capacity was the least interesting thing about the original Panther anyway.
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100%. I'm actually a little bit disappointed on this front. It could never have been a true warship but I did hope for something with a bit more of that feel. My ideal would've been for it to have a class 8 distributor and have more Large hardpoints than any other ship – but all underbelly, suitable only for turrets and best for firing either down or back. Wanted it to be the ship that contemptuously turns away from you while annihilating you with heavy firepower.

I'd also like to have seen a Class 8 FSD... they can always ramp up the hull mass so it doesn't give any benefit, I just would've got a kick out of it having Class 8 almost across the board, for that endgame ship fantasy that its legacy calls for.
 

KKomrade Sylas

KKomrade Sylas
Seen a few comments about 'people here in the forums are happy about it so sod off'...


I would like to completely annihilate the notion that the forums in any way represent the majority of the playerbase. People here are such a terribly small minority, the forums might as well not exist. It's just the same dozen dudes for years who dominate all discourse here.

If you want the real majority, just browse through Discord servers.

I find it kinda funny how people who are happy with the cargo tonnage are sort of implying people who wanted more are childish. What's up with the superiority complex? Y'all are not smarter than the majority of people. I know reddit brains would like to think so, but worrying about 'balance' and 'realism' at the expense of fun isn't really something that makes your opinion worth more than anyone else's.

This is NOT a competitive game. You're not playing ranked in CSGO or Valorant where something being OP breaks the game and ruins it. Elite is basically a singleplayer game at this poin and releasing overpowered stuff is only a concern if we're dealing with a combat ship. You can go ham with exploration ships like they did with the mandalay, or a trading ship like this one, and it's gonna be fine. Nobody loses. And the people who wanted 1500 cargo are not naive for wanting that.

All you have to worry about is that the ship is not OP enough that you trivialize an activity. it's not fun if you oneshot pirates with one tap of a pulse laser or if you can complete an orbis station with 2 hauls. But 1500 tons wouldn't even come close to doing that
 

DemiserofD

D
KKomrade Sylas said:
Seen a few comments about 'people here in the forums are happy about it so sod off'...


I would like to completely annihilate the notion that the forums in any way represent the majority of the playerbase. People here are such a terribly small minority, the forums might as well not exist. It's just the same dozen dudes for years who dominate all discourse here.

If you want the real majority, just browse through Discord servers.

I find it kinda funny how people who are happy with the cargo tonnage are sort of implying people who wanted more are childish. What's up with the superiority complex? Y'all are not smarter than the majority of people. I know reddit brains would like to think so, but worrying about 'balance' and 'realism' at the expense of fun isn't really something that makes your opinion worth more than anyone else's.

This is NOT a competitive game. You're not playing ranked in CSGO or Valorant where something being OP breaks the game and ruins it. Elite is basically a singleplayer game at this poin and releasing overpowered stuff is only a concern if we're dealing with a combat ship. You can go ham with exploration ships like they did with the mandalay, or a trading ship like this one, and it's gonna be fine. Nobody loses. And the people who wanted 1500 cargo are not naive for wanting that.

All you have to worry about is that the ship is not OP enough that you trivialize an activity. it's not fun if you oneshot pirates with one tap of a pulse laser or if you can complete an orbis station with 2 hauls. But 1500 tons wouldn't even come close to doing that
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If you want a real objective sample of people's thoughts, reddit would probably be the most practical way, because it actively employs an upvote / down vote system which allows you to measure that sort of thing by default. Notably, the current threads on Reddit are broadly happy, with most negative feedback seeing significant down votes.
 

KKomrade Sylas

KKomrade Sylas
DemiserofD said:
If you want a real objective sample of people's thoughts, reddit would probably be the most practical way, because it actively employs an upvote / down vote system which allows you to measure that sort of thing by default. Notably, the current threads on Reddit are broadly happy, with most negative feedback seeing significant down votes.
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It's the opposite, in reddit because of the upvote/downvote system, it prioritizes pseudo intellectual takes and a lot of the time it's very easy to manipulate because people only comment what they think will be upvoted, and don't comment what they think will be downvoted. So people would look at a thread, see a positive opinion have +7 upvotes, and that's the direction the entire thread is going to take no matter what. It's the same if they see a positive opinion with -7 upvotes and then nobody will want to comment anything positive.

Pretty sure there's whole studies on how the first comments being upovted or downvoted are going to nudge the thread in any particular direction, and how in other subs (Political ones for example) people use it to manipulate public opinion. In gaming subs some groups also do this to just control discourse and avoid things being buffed or nerfed.

In case you didn't know, this is the reason why on new posts (Not in the Elite sub sadly) in many subreddits, votes are hidden for a period of time. Say 1 hour
 

DemiserofD

D
KKomrade Sylas said:
It's the opposite, in reddit because of the upvote/downvote system, it prioritizes pseudo intellectual takes and a lot of the time it's very easy to manipulate because people only comment what they think will be upvoted, and don't comment what they think will be downvoted. So people would look at a thread, see a positive opinion have +7 upvotes, and that's the direction the entire thread is going to take no matter what. It's the same if they see a positive opinion with -7 upvotes and then nobody will want to comment anything positive.
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It definitely has a tendency towards groupthink - but then, so do discord servers! It takes a special kind of dingus to fight back against the majority opinion!

That said, this is probably one of the few cases where this is okay. We're not talking about facts here, but opinions, and that's where reddit truly shines.

Personally, I think 1200 ish cargo with SCO is just about the maximum they could have done while being remotely balanced, so I personally think they really nailed it. Time will tell, of course, but this seems like a really nice balance point.
 

Desirsar

Desirsar
KKomrade Sylas said:
This is NOT a competitive game. You're not playing ranked in CSGO or Valorant where something being OP breaks the game and ruins it. Elite is basically a singleplayer game at this poin and releasing overpowered stuff is only a concern if we're dealing with a combat ship. You can go ham with exploration ships like they did with the mandalay, or a trading ship like this one, and it's gonna be fine. Nobody loses. And the people who wanted 1500 cargo are not naive for wanting that.
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It's not even that I won't use it, I just won't give money to have it early for what it is. Type 8 was exciting, it made my life easier with BGS stuff. Mandalay was exciting, it made my life easier for exploration. Corsair was exciting, I can run medium cargo but make pirates wish they hadn't interdicted me. This doesn't make colonization or trade less of a slog, it just shaves a bit off total number of trips and only in specific situations. Then again, they never did say how many Arx, maybe they plan to wow us with that instead. (No, I have actual hope of that.)
 

Michael Ryan

Michael Ryan
Nowski said:
Let me try once more.

At 1:10:26 they detail the optional slots:

Curtis:


Zac:


That is, they say they are going to talk further about the size seven and eight optional slots they just counted (two of each).

After listing out the core internals they go on to explain about the two special slots and the optimized modules that can only be fitted in them.

That starts (at 1:11:27) with:

Zac:


And the explanation of special slots/modules follows.

If the discussion of the two special slots and their modules isn't what they meant when they said "we'll talk about those [i.e. the already listed "special" slots] in a minute" then, not only why did Zac say "as you've just hinted", but in fact where did they "talk about them in a minute"?

There isn't any additional talk about special slots. There is nothing else for the promise to talk further about the "something special about those ones" to refer to. Ergo it refers to the obvious candidate and the already counted special slots are the same special slots that fit the enhanced modules. QED ;)
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I know what do you mean, but still you just ignored one thing, when they compare it to military slots. And if you are talking about any ship with military slots, usually players add them as an additional slots to optional.

I know what do you assume here, and what is your interpretation. There is no reason to convince me to anything.
 

KKomrade Sylas

KKomrade Sylas
Desirsar said:
It's not even that I won't use it, I just won't give money to have it early for what it is. Type 8 was exciting, it made my life easier with BGS stuff. Mandalay was exciting, it made my life easier for exploration. Corsair was exciting, I can run medium cargo but make pirates wish they hadn't interdicted me. This doesn't make colonization or trade less of a slog, it just shaves a bit off total number of trips and only in specific situations. Then again, they never did say how many Arx, maybe they plan to wow us with that instead. (No, I have actual hope of that.)
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I'll probably pay for it anyway and it'll be the first ship I pay ARX for. I just wanted more cargo because I feel Colonization takes up a lot of time and actual playing time. It's not a bother for me if a Coriolis takes a week to build. But a week with 5 hours a day of hauling isn't the same as a week with 2 hours a day of hauling, if that makes sense. Those numbers are pulled from a place I'd rather not mention but it's just meant to be an example. I've always felt, since colonisation launched, that just halving the required commodities for big stations would've been a good balance spot for me lol. So doubling the Cutter's cargo (say, roughly 750 to 1500 or 1400) was my expectation
 

tolm

tolm
thistle said:
Because its a unique slot and module for the PC, no other ship can use the modules. Like Military slots.
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It’s still a weird move to give it more cargo by having an “optimised” version rack that fits more in less space vs just giving it a bigger slot that no other ship has anyway …
 

Doctor Dread

Doctor Dread
tolm said:
It’s still a weird move to give it more cargo by having an “optimised” version rack that fits more in less space vs just giving it a bigger slot that no other ship has anyway …
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Might be a start in wide "optimizing" racks with one of the Engineers.

Fingers crossed.
 

thistle

T
tolm said:
It’s still a weird move to give it more cargo by having an “optimised” version rack that fits more in less space vs just giving it a bigger slot that no other ship has anyway …
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True, I guess it's just so it can be restricted in use to only certain numbers of slots. But yes they could have made the unique ones a difference size classification I guess.
 

Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
KKomrade Sylas said:
Another example of the so called 'echo chamber'. Everyone here says they won't pay ARX. Then somehow once the ship releases, there's lots of extra money in Frontier's bank because people actually do spend ARX. They just ain't forum goers.
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And that's another case of confirmation bias. Lots of people here said they would pay ARX, and even more keep posting the Fry "shut up and take my money" meme. You just don't (want to) see them.
 

Rat Catcher

Rat Catcher
Elyssaen said:
I'm honestly not sure what you're saying.
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A statement of design by FD, it was a fairly simple concept.
Nothing will be done to endanger the balance of the game: Meaning things will be conservative rather than what might be considered overpowered.
Elyssaen said:
Were you the one who talked about how people who didn't agree with you about the Panther's design actively didn't like having fun?
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Nope: I just point out that I like to have fun, and that my idea of fun is not the majority view here.
That doesn't indicate I think they don't like having fun, obviously they do, just in a more subdued manner than I might.
 

Pville_Piper

Pville_Piper
Helmut Grokenberger said:
I think we just discovered what a social media bubble is. For those who didn't: Surround yourself with like minded people and they will mostly agree with you. What a surprise.
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About as surprising as the ones throwing an absolute tantrum over an imaginary ship and complaining that x game loop is boring in a game that has more than a few game loops... Amazing.

And yes I would like it to have more cargo and for colonisation to have more game loops but I'm not going to get upset one way or the other.
 

Elyssaen

E
KKomrade Sylas said:
Seen a few comments about 'people here in the forums are happy about it so sod off'...
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Where exactly? In the last five pages the most 'divisive' comment in support of the Panther design is someone saying that much more cargo would've been bad design.

On the flip side, those of us who accurately predicted what we were going to get and are happy with it are somehow being told relentlessly that we have a superiority complex and don't like fun. Moreover, every effort to have a conversation about anything but cargo capacity in this thread has been derailed again and again. At this point I wish there was a separate thread just for griping about the Panther's cargo capacity.

tolm said:
It’s still a weird move to give it more cargo by having an “optimised” version rack that fits more in less space vs just giving it a bigger slot that no other ship has anyway …
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So there's decent reason for them to not want to introduce a Class 9 slot – going back to Elite, Class 8 has always been the highest, and the Panther didn't break that rule then.

It is a bit odd they didn't just give it another Class 7 and 6, either unrestricted or restricted to just cargo, which would've given the same cargo capacity.

Cargo restricted internal slots are a useful design tool to support hybrid ships. On a pure freighter there's not much point as players were going to fit cargo racks in the slots anyway. It's doubtful we'd be looking at a serious combat ship even if it'd have the slots for lots more shield cell banks.

And the difference between 8&7 optimised cargo racks and 8776 normal ones is... pretty negligible? Basically just keeps them from fitting too much fuel, which... why...
 
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