Fix all trailblazers economy problems with these two simple selections!

To allow architects to find the happy medium between biowaste factories and self-consuming muddles, I suggest adding two settings for trailblazers ports:
  • Trade Range (how far away the port accepts links from)
  • Economic Focus (allow colony type ports to select which economy override(s) to use)
Options for Trade Range could be:
  • Port
  • Local Body
  • Local Body and Moons
  • Orbit
  • Star
  • System
Options for Economic Focus would be all the available economy overrides that would normally apply to that colony port. Ideally this would be yes/no for each such override.

The defaults for these should be "System" and "yes" to all the overrides - this would mean that the system works exactly as it currently does until an architect makes changes to their ports.

Advantages of using these settings:
  • Thematically appropriate
  • Maintains character of different body types
  • No disruption of existing behaviour
  • Compatible with both the original system ("Local Body" / none) and Update 3.0 ("System" / all)
  • Flexible control between those extremes
  • Simple UI that can be added to where architects currently change the settings for a construction - at the moment there's only renaming there, but these would fit nicely
  • Earthlike worlds would become worth claiming
Disadvantages:
  • Some extra processing when settings are changed. This could happen during weekly maintenance along with renaming, but it might also be feasible to do this when the change is made to spread the load over a week. To move a market to a recalculated economy all that needs to be done is to flush the market supply/demand numbers and let the regular market resupply tick propagate the new economies, although there may be secret back-end things that also need to be updated - these would be being done with the addition of new constructions anyway, but might add to the load.
With a change like this it might even make sense to increase the strength of weak links.
 
With a change like this it might even make sense to increase the strength of weak links.
nice idea, but I doubt that will work as these settings then would have to br stored server-side.
As FDev heavily relies on procedural generation (and I guess for economy too) thats rather not possible....
 
nice idea, but I doubt that will work as these settings then would have to br stored server-side.
As FDev heavily relies on procedural generation (and I guess for economy too) thats rather not possible....
The data about which stations exist, what supply and demand levels their economies have (at least as a fraction of the maximum), what BGS states are influencing those supply and demand levels, and a whole bunch of other stuff relevant or tangential to the final "currently stocking 300t Indium" readout we get is already all stored server-side.

There are procedural components to the economy, sure, but I'd not assume that something Frontier already regularly does might be impossible.
(Which is not the same as saying that this is something Frontier will want to do, of course)
 
This actually seems kind of complicated to implement once you start stepping through the mess.

Star A -> t3 (system)
GasGiant -> Asteroid base (body + moons)
Moon A -> Surface port(body) + industry hub
Moon B -> surface port (Star) + industry hub.

Star B -> Coriolis (star)
Planet B -> outpost (system)

Break it down for me.

What influences do I have at Star A's t3?
What do I have at Star B's Coriolis?
How many times are those hubs allowed to connect to things?
How many times can the ports connect to things?

This isn't even the worst case we could create but thinking it through it seems like this solution isn't as straight forward as it might seem at first glance.
Lots of odd edge cases and hard to explain interactions possible.
 
So OP do you see this as something done as each facility is commenced/completed or at any point at the architects whim?
 
This actually seems kind of complicated to implement once you start stepping through the mess.

Bear in mind that all of these calculations are already being done at what is effectively the system level; if anything calculations with smaller trade ranges would have fewer data points to deal with.

Break it down for me.

You didn't specify ecomony focii so I'll just assume "all".

What influences do I have at Star A's t3?
It's set to system, so it would work as it currently does after update 3: an override from the star (probably military), strong links from things directly orbiting the star (currently nothing) and weak links from everything in the system that produces weak links (just the two industry hubs)
What do I have at Star B's Coriolis?
That's set to star so it would be as if star A and its planets didn't exist for it. So override from the star, strong links from nothing, and weak links from nothing

A more interesting case would be the outpost over planet B. Because it's set to system it would get the weak links from the industrial hubs even though the coriolis doesn't.
How many times are those hubs allowed to connect to things?
As many times as they currently do - no limit
How many times can the ports connect to things?
As many as they currently do - again, no limit on incoming weak links, and I don't think any of them are exporting links at all with this configuration

Another way of looking at it would be that this works exactly as trailblazers currently does. but allows ports to ignore the weak links from beyond a certain range.

Does that make more sense?
 
(Which is not the same as saying that this is something Frontier will want to do, of course)

They seem to have listened to the complaints about the original system enough to do something about, so here's hoping.

But if they did, do you think it would work? Do you see any problems with it?
 
Currently it's 0-1 strong link. Weak links don't count they're system cancer.

I'm inclined to agree :D

However I can kinda see what FDev intended them for - I have one system where the main star has just one non-landable planet but the companion at 20kls has lots of space. There were requests from players for stations to reflect the overall system economy, so they put in weak links to be able to provide economic influence to such isolated stations. But then they went and added body economy overrides which made the weak links mostly irrelevant.

If we could limit which weak links a port accepts then they might start to become useful, and then it might even make sense to make them stronger than 0.05
 
So OP do you see this as something done as each facility is commenced/completed or at any point at the architects whim?

Any point at the architect's whim works for me :)

As I said, the only thing that needs to be done when an architect changes the settings is to flush the supply/demand numbers, unless there are other secret things that need to happen. But queuing changes until weekly maintenance as is done for renaming would work too.
 
But if they did, do you think it would work? Do you see any problems with it?
That level of customisation of effect should allow pretty much anything anyone wants to build - the only problem I see in that sense is that it's potentially a lot of interface, a lot of concepts, and a lot of room for bugs or misunderstandings as to how it's supposed to work, and it's probably more complex than it needs to be in terms of what people actually want to do.

On the other side (starting with the essentials only) arguably all that would be needed in a minimal case (a lot less flexible, yes, but still gives most of the benefits and compatibility with both previous iterations) would be a single toggle switch per station
  • on non-port facilities: enable weak links [y/n]
  • on ports: use planetary influence [y/n]

and then on a slightly more complex level to allow a few things not possible under either previous design
  • on non-port facilities: enable links [off/strong/strong+weak] (defaults to strong+weak, I suppose)
  • on ports: use planetary influence: [all/<list of allowed economies, pick exactly one>/none] (defaults to all for Colony types and none for others)




If you're suggesting allowing changes after a structure had been built - understandable as a way to fix existing systems - then I think it would need those to be on a delay (with the weekly updates, probably) to stop a very silly set of exploits where you buy and sell the same commodity from the station without even undocking, but change its economy in-between. With the right commodities and a large enough baseline station you could probably set up something ridiculous by flipping a single weak link on and off.

It could alternatively have the same "you only get 5 changes ever" as the rename button has so that you can set it up as you want and maybe fix a mistake or two, but can't just keep flipping it around on a whim.
 
Weak links are unfortunately a straight up development tax and any system that changes where/how you can get your links from can just straight out drop them.

If we simply removed weak links and removed body influences then fixed the slot generation to ensure 2+ slots on rare bodies and left the generation for common bodies we'd be done without and complicated market selection UI. It would make it so that some economies cannot be built in some systems. That's OK you'd at least know what you could do and it'd be reliable.

Additional options for enabling services system wide would help but the core problem is they don't give us orbital slots in cool places. Fix the core problem and then we don't need the backup mechanics and the system is simple and easy to understand.

Nobody is going to complain that their ELW or WW got a bonus slot. They will complain about yet another breaking change but that seems unavoidable at this stage if they want colonisation to be worth doing.
 
Just something as simple as additional specializing infrastructure (such as a Refinery hub, Space Farm or Tourist settlement) completely nullifying the (unwanted) planetary influence and weak links so that you can specialize a Coriolis around an Icy planet with biosignals to whatever you actually need without silliness like 360% Refinery still not outputting a single ounce of aluminium because apparently 145% Industrial and 100% Terraforming eat up everything. Or 5% Refinery weak link drying up all the H.E. Suits from a 220% High Tech surface port and at the same time giving it tens of thousands tons steel and titanium 🤪
 
Just something as simple as additional specializing infrastructure (such as a Refinery hub, Space Farm or Tourist settlement) completely nullifying the (unwanted) planetary influence and weak links so that you can specialize a Coriolis around an Icy planet with biosignals to whatever you actually need without silliness like 360% Refinery still not outputting a single ounce of aluminium because apparently 145% Industrial and 100% Terraforming eat up everything. Or 5% Refinery weak link drying up all the H.E. Suits from a 220% High Tech surface port and at the same time giving it tens of thousands tons steel and titanium 🤪
I still stay with my original proposal when the problem of orphaned stations started that whole mess of planetary/geological/bio-influence.
Let for bleeps sake the architect decide where the primary port goes and ALL of that mess and updates would have been avoided.
 
That level of customisation of effect should allow pretty much anything anyone wants to build - the only problem I see in that sense is that it's potentially a lot of interface, a lot of concepts, and a lot of room for bugs or misunderstandings as to how it's supposed to work, and it's probably more complex than it needs to be in terms of what people actually want to do.
Personally I want to do stupidly complex things :p

On the other side (starting with the essentials only) arguably all that would be needed in a minimal case (a lot less flexible, yes, but still gives most of the benefits and compatibility with both previous iterations) would be a single toggle switch per station
  • on non-port facilities: enable weak links [y/n]
  • on ports: use planetary influence [y/n]
Nice symmetry!

I had thought about putting output controls on facilities rather than import controls on ports. Part of why I decided not to go that way is that I think there will eventually be more facilities than ports. At the moment I think they're fairly equal in number, but that's because the current mechanisms strongly disincentivise building up big systems. If that were fixed by whatever means then I think we'd see more facilities being built than we currently do.

The other part of my reasoning was more aesthetic. While a big driver of update 3 was certainly player dissatisfaction with biowaste factories, I got the impression (they might have actually outright said this?) that FDev didn't want planets to all be the same - that the introduction of planetary boosts and overrides wasn't just a biowaste fix but to add character to systems. In that respect basing weak link control on proximity seemed more thematic. YMMV :)

The main reason I don't think a simple on/off is sufficient for planetary overrides is ELWs. Earthlike worlds currently get burdened with four economies that all parasitise each other, so rather than being the shining jewels of the colonisation system they're muddy messes. In my experience ELWs and WWs don't often have spare orbital slots so they are quite dependant on those overrides, but they don't want ALL of them. Rocky ice worlds with biologicals and geologicals have it even worse, but are less valuable.

and then on a slightly more complex level to allow a few things not possible under either previous design
  • on non-port facilities: enable links [off/strong/strong+weak] (defaults to strong+weak, I suppose)
  • on ports: use planetary influence: [all/<list of allowed economies, pick exactly one>/none] (defaults to all for Colony types and none for others)
I thought about doing the pick-exactly-one thing too, but was a little conflicted about disallowing taking multiple overrides. On reflection it occurred to me that in both single- and multi-choice cases the UI needs to list all the possible overrides, but single also has to put in "All" and "None", so maybe the more flexible solution also had the simpler UI.

If you're suggesting allowing changes after a structure had been built - understandable as a way to fix existing systems - then I think it would need those to be on a delay (with the weekly updates, probably) to stop a very silly set of exploits where you buy and sell the same commodity from the station without even undocking, but change its economy in-between. With the right commodities and a large enough baseline station you could probably set up something ridiculous by flipping a single weak link on and off.
I thought about that too. I figured that having to wait for the market tick for commodities to restock / be in demand again would be enough to put people off doing that. I personally would get horribly bored doing that, and that one could fly to a different system and trade there in less time than a market tick seemed sufficient to me. But I guess there are probably people who would rather mess with settings and are immune to boredom who might do that just to avoid the chance of being interdicted :-(

Against that I thought that distributing the load of recalculating economies over the week might be less likely to push maintenance out further than it has sometimes taken, but FDev do seem to have optimised the maintenance process recently.

So I am absolutely OK with queuing changes for a weekly update. But I'm also ok with them happening instantly :)

Overall I think our thought processes are converging, and I appreciate being able to bounce ideas around. Thanks!
 
I like the idea of the architect being involved in the links that are established between facilities.

Currently I find it very weird that two major ports on separate planets with seemingly complimentary economies have absolutely no economic links, yet a backwater small settlement on the opposite side of the solar system has links to almost everything in the system. Huh? Why does this small settlement have any trade with anything in the system? Its quicker to simply hyper jump supplies between the neighboring systems than to do business in the local system. Its obviously a silly game mechanic that doesn't make any economic sense.

The OPs ideas allows the architect to design a system with an economic model that makes sense to the player.
 
Im glad you were able to iron things out since last time you mentioned this idea. I am even tempted to call this "Option 3" at this point. Although weak links will need to be near or the same as strong links for this to work. As long as the economic focus filters out any unwanted economy types regardless of the source.
 
Im glad you were able to iron things out since last time you mentioned this idea. I am even tempted to call this "Option 3" at this point. Although weak links will need to be near or the same as strong links for this to work. As long as the economic focus filters out any unwanted economy types regardless of the source.
I figured it should be it's own post rather than a comment on yours :)
 
I just realized that we have specialized High Tech and Industrial surface ports and orbital outposts that completely ignore planetary influence, but oddly we lack specialized main facilities for other economy types. Having a greater variety of these would already help with the situation. And it also shows that Planetary Influence Yes/No? must be a flag somewhere in station or economy type settings that maybe could be exposed to the system architect without too much trouble.

Right now if you don't have a no-bio, no-volcanism rocky body in your system the only viable way to get at least the three main metals (Al, Ti, steel) is to build a High Tech surface outpost and a refinery hub because High Tech seems to be less antagonistic to Refinery than Industrial and Terraforming.
 
I just realized that we have specialized High Tech and Industrial surface ports and orbital outposts that completely ignore planetary influence, but oddly we lack specialized main facilities for other economy types.
Yes, having a specialized T1 Surface Refinery Port would be nice and make logical sense. And orbital outpost or installation.

Being able to turn off planetary, geo, & bio influence on large orbital (colony) stns would be really nice too. A basic selection when building the facility. If a Coriolis isn't interested in growing plants, why should it be forced into it?

IMO these two changes would be a fantastic improvement.
 
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