Odyssey Combat is bad.

Elite's FPS component is a mess.

Here's the first thing about PVE Shooters; to be enjoyable, they need a significant amount of diversity. On-foot gunplay is, at its core, simple. Everyone knows how to run, jump, and shoot. We've all been doing that for years. Doing that against the same type of enemy over and over gets dull very quickly, unless there's something to spice things up.

Games CAN get away with simplicity, IF they are very fast-paced. If you die in one or two shots, then that can be fun because the skill ceiling is so high.

But as games become more slow-paced, with shields and armor, they need more diversity to keep players interested, and that's where Elite doesn't do very well. Unfortunately, Elite combines the diversity of a fast-paced game with the kill speed and low risk of a slow-paced game, like Mass Effect. This leads to only one inevitable result; everyone running around with two rocket launchers, the only thing which allows them to achieve some semblance of the fast-paced gameplay they crave.

Other PVE games like Mass Effect achieve balance through a wide variety of enemy types, with encounters designed to combine them in innovative ways. For example, combine sniper type enemies who keep you pinned down in cover, with aggressive berserkers that force you OUT of cover. Or mid-range troopers that keep you distracted, while engineers set up turrets behind them to assert map control. The fact each type of unit has different tactics and strategies that interact with other types of unit, creates a constantly dynamic experience that you need to adjust to on the fly, and keeps the game enjoyable.

I believe Elite could emulate this approach. However, it will need a fair degree of new enemy types to make it work, the existing settlement maps need to be slightly redesigned, and several of the current mechanics need to be reworked.

The Sniper Rifle and Missile Problem(Lines of Sight)​




One thing a lot of people notice right away in Odyssey is that there is essentially no sniper rifle. Yes, there is the plasma rifle, which is ostensibly a sniper, but in practice its slow bullet velocity and the shield gate of enemies means that in practice, it's not a sniper at all.

Unlike others however, I would argue that the lack of sniper rifles isn't a simple design mistake, but a deeper concession to a fundamental design flaw; this game has too many sight lines. You can get a bead on an enemy guard from a kilometer away, and if you could actually kill them from that distance, you'd never do anything else, because it's not like they could shoot BACK. Settlements are HORRIBLY designed from a defensive standpoint. They are wide open to the surrounding planet surface, and can be sniped or bombarded with missiles with virtually zero effort. This is a huge problem, because it essentially calls into question the entire PURPOSE of on-foot combat. Why on earth are we sending in soldiers, when a ship with missiles can just vaporize the entire surface with zero effort?

Even once you get into the settlement, the problems persist. Despite the fact the outside requires an environment suit to protect from the lack of air and radiation, few settlements are actually built to allow passage between buildings. This means any outbuildings are basically irrelevant for combat, because they are completely disconnected from the rest of the map and typically contain exactly one door and no reason to go inside. It's quite odd how settlements built on alien planets are built more like shantytowns or beach bungalows than what they'd really look like, more akin to a base on Antarctica.

But even setting the realism standpoint aside, it also makes for bad map design. The current system essentially is nothing more than a wide, empty combat arena with no meaningful details. Nobody goes into any buildings because they have no REASON to go into any buildings(not to mention rockets and grenades making going inside pointlessly dangerous), and because jetpacks exist, cover is also largely irrelevant, leading inevitably to the dual-rocket meta. Why would you ever pick anything else, when you can get into the sky and obliterate everyone on the ground in two shots with a large splash radius?

1752091178737.png


Take a look at this map. The orange is where 95% of fighting is going to take place, and the red dot is a single location where you can literally see all of it. NPCs will run haphazardly into it and repeatedly die, making for a bland and emotionless experience.

1752091195090.png


Now, let's make a few small modifications. First, add some low walls along the tops of the roofs(yellow), to give a protected line of sight on the areas below. Then, add access points(purple) to allow NPCs multiple ways of reaching the tops of those roofs and attacking you from behind. Then, add a connecting hallway(green) and skyway(blue) between three of the four buildings, allowing those buildings to go from being useless, to being a full half the map. Lastly, let's add a Red tunnel, not only giving a second access point to the uppermost building, but also a back entrance to the open area. Suddenly, you can't just sit out there anymore, you actually need to run around, expose yourself to danger, and enter hostile situations!

Lastly, add overhangs to many things to protect people in cover from being attacked from the air, and walls around the outside edge to protect from snipers.

Relatively small tweaks like this can take maps from bland to far more interesting. And some maps should have more of each of these things. Some maps should take place primarily inside; others primarily outside.

2. The Orbital Bombardment/Rocket Launcher/Sniper Rifle Problem​


This is both a gameplay problem and a realism one. If ships can bombard settlements and kill everyone there fairly effortlessly with rockets, what point is there in on-foot combat in the first place? Why don't sniper rifles exist?

The obvious answer is shield generators and shield generator grenades. First, shields need to be changed to have a brief 'Shield Gate', to prevent from instakilling enemies with multiple projectiles. After that, shield bubble grenades need to be made much more common, and NPCs need to be coded to use them when bombarded. Then, settlements need to have much larger shields, which prevent ships from getting too close and snipers from shooting from beyond the bubble. This could have an opening or openings about 5m off the ground to allow SRVs and players inside, and even to allow for careful sniper shots, but I don't really see any other way to solve these issues.

3. Weapons, Suits, Enemies​


These changes are, unfortunately, just a start. They create the conditions under which an enjoyable game could be made, but to really do that, it'll take a fairly comprehensive reworking of weapons, suits and enemies as well. Does anyone REALLY think it's reasonable that EVERYONE in the galaxy uses the same exact suit type in combat? That grenades are limited but rockets are unlimited? That tools have no combat utility?

This is, fortunately, where a lot of monetization could come in. Imagine each faction(Empire, Federation, Independent, and Anarchy) has their own set of troop types, each with distinctive and thematic behaviors, and which players can acquire and apply cosmetics to? Imagine cosmetics for tools, not just weapons, and that tools can be freely swapped between different suits with different playstyles? The more suits players want to own, the more cosmetics they'll want, and the more money Fdev can make. I won't dig too deep here because quite frankly it's a style decision, but you can understand the basic principle by now.

Done right, Odyssey could be really good!
 
Last edited:
Your post is way too long to go through it and answer all of it, so I'll just cherry pick.

You made your own point about the sniper rifle. Elite's ground locations aren't battle arenas; they are somewhat functional settlements. Personally I think the plasma sniper is genious. By avoiding the lame hitscan sniper rifle trope and making it actually skill based it makes you think twice if you use it. The plasma sniper is actually a genious, much underrated weapon. I never leave my ship without one - the other being a Tormentor for inside.

As for the actual FPS part: The way I see it Odyssey isn't an FPS, and doesn't want to be. The settlements aren't battle arenas, they are settlements. If you do, for example, massacre or heist missions, 95% of the mission, which might be fighting, doesn't take place in what you marked as orange. Most of it takes place inside. And just because there is a FPS component to the game I don't want all settlements to look like battle arenas with walls to hide behind just for being there while making no sense in a settlement.

As far as the ship vs. on foot argument goes: It's "blaze your own trail". If it's efficiency you're after, go ahead and carpet bomb the settlement. I rather get out of my ship, pack my beloved plasma sniper, perch somewhere on top and giggle like a school girl when I pick the guards off one by one.
 
Elite's ground locations aren't battle arenas; they are somewhat functional settlements
Are they, though? Remember, they're built out in the middle of nowhere with zero defenses or protections, in a universe where pirates can jump in from 100ly away, kill everyone, and be away before the police could hope to catch them.

A 'functional settlement' would account for the fact they're alone and basically defenseless. Even in cities, business and campuses put up walls and fences to keep people out, and this is out in the middle of nowhere! I really can't imagine a situation where any sort of organized settlement doesn't at least have low walls. And as for shield generators...heck, even the cheapest pirate has one.

Probably the closet comparison would be an old fortified house in the medieval ages:

1752095329423.png


The question isn't whether you can get out; it's why settlements would even EXIST if any pirate anywhere can carpet bomb any settlement at any time with zero risk.
 
The thing I'll point out is that originally, there was a lot of posts talking about Odyssey being too hard, everyone was dying all the time, consequences of failure were too harsh...etc.

Then we got good. The difference with this game and other old games we play is we can't change a difficulty level or mod in more dangerous opponents.

As for defences, there's two choices for a settlement. Either walls we can jump over and turrets we can avoid, as we have now (try seeing how high you can jump with an artemis suit with improved jump and you'll see why walls of any description are useless), or something that's an impenetrable barrier and that will generate a whole bunch of complaints.

I suppose that does leave it open for carpet bombing, but (a) you do need some reasonable level of engineering to do that everywhere, something only pilot's federation pilots generally have and (b) not everyone reaches straight for carpet bombing innocent people (or risking people on your own side in a war scenario) as a solution for getting a job done, so I'm not surprised it's not covered in a response accounting for normal behaviour.
 
Are they, though? Remember, they're built out in the middle of nowhere with zero defenses or protections, in a universe where pirates can jump in from 100ly away, kill everyone, and be away before the police could hope to catch them.

A 'functional settlement' would account for the fact they're alone and basically defenseless. Even in cities, business and campuses put up walls and fences to keep people out, and this is out in the middle of nowhere! I really can't imagine a situation where any sort of organized settlement doesn't at least have low walls. And as for shield generators...heck, even the cheapest pirate has one.

Probably the closet comparison would be an old fortified house in the medieval ages:

View attachment 434510

The question isn't whether you can get out; it's why settlements would even EXIST if any pirate anywhere can carpet bomb any settlement at any time with zero risk.
The settlements probably exist as they are because they are good enough, the people who have them built really don’t care that much about the inhabitants just that they have a good chance on a return for their investment.

I mean look at the sort of people they are hiring as architects.
 
Settlements are HORRIBLY designed from a defensive standpoint. They are wide open to the surrounding planet surface, and can be sniped or bombarded with missiles with virtually zero effort.
Not just from a defensive standpoint. The scattered buildings mean people have to suit up to visit their neighbour, and combined with nothing being built underground, the heat losses (and gains) from poor insulation would be horrendous. I think you're on the mark describing the design philosophy as being "shantytowns", and it's disappointing.

I like your ideas to tweak the layout to make them both more immersive and more interesting to fight in. About the sniper rifle question though, another perspective on "too many sight lines" is that Odyssey is strangely wedded to the idea that most areas are outside (particularly in ground conflict zones). I imagined we'd be entering large pressured cylinders – often buried ones – and interacting/fighting inside them.

Something else I struggle with is how they've ended up approaching shielding. I've never got on how battlecruisers and stations lack shielding, and I especially don't get on with the ubiquitous personnel shielding in Odyssey. I would've preferred a setting where large structures like battlecruisers, stations and settlements are balanced along these lines:

  1. They can have shields, and those shields can be very powerful compared to a playable ship (even to the point of being essentially indestructible to our weapons, in the case of strongholds).
  2. They can't remotely keep those shields on 24/7. Not just from a power perspective, but from a heat management perspective.
  3. It takes a noticeable amount of time to power up a giant shield.
  4. There's a similar noticeable amount of time to power up particularly giant guns... which would make people happier in this current CG.
  5. (Possibly) Large shields can't be selectively permeable like our ships' shields, meaning the shield has to drop when other ships dock/land or when the settlement/station wants to open fire.
Then settlements aren't necessarily defenceless against pirates (though at least some will surely not have appreciable shielding). Raiders will rely on either getting in quick before the shield can be raised, or getting in sneakily, or sometimes will just rely on being too small fry to warrant raising the shield, and only rarely will rely on actually breaking a shield.
 
Last edited:
The settlements probably exist as they are because they are good enough, the people who have them built really don’t care that much about the inhabitants just that they have a good chance on a return for their investment.

I mean look at the sort of people they are hiring as architects.
We actually have historical examples of that, too; wagon trains. People will do what they can even with limited resources to defend themselves. In this case, they could put shipping containers in such a way as to block obvious attacks, or build low earthen walls.


There's no one potentially for light years and fences offer no protection.
More than you might think. A dirt mound might not look like much but it's probably the single most effective defense available, blocking just about anything, especially small arms fire.

And besides, why would they be limited to just fences? Even the cheapest pirate flies with a shield generator capable of covering a ship bigger than an entire settlement.

From a gameplay standpoint, making it harder to snipe justifies better sniper rifles, and that way everyone wins.
 
Some folks may give you a hard time for griping, but I think this was a really well thought out post. I agree with most, if not all of it. I did the ground combat in the training and haven't really been tempted to go back to it since. It's not terribly engaging, stealth doesn't really work, a slow projectile sniper rifle seems like a bad idea (granted, I haven't tried it). The settlement layout is also unrealistic and nonsensical for all the reasons you mentioned and probably more. I don't feel like I'm in a real place, I feel like I'm in a mediocre deathmatch map. I think being on foot in the ports is immersive, but walking around settlements (I do a lot of courier work) isn't.

I definitely think the fps element of the game lacks refinement and I generally avoid it when I can (especially combat). I haven't delved into exobio yet, but if that's a disappointment, I might try to just revert the game back to Horizons until Odyssey gets some polish, assuming it does.
 
More than you might think. A dirt mound might not look like much but it's probably the single most effective defense available, blocking just about anything, especially small arms fire.

And besides, why would they be limited to just fences? Even the cheapest pirate flies with a shield generator capable of covering a ship bigger than an entire settlement.

From a gameplay standpoint, making it harder to snipe justifies better sniper rifles, and that way everyone wins.
The most likely opponent is us. we're all equiped withh jump packs and SRVs capable of clearing a settlement.
Design defences that would deter you. The massed skimmers of some Horizons bases might work.
 
Great OP.
I doubt FDev will fundamentally change what currently exists, though...

Maybe, very hopefully maybe, new types of end-game difficulty Thargoids/settlements will be added to indoor gameplay?

In the meantime, I would be happy for some very minor changes like:
  • NPCs can sprint.
  • Guards at settlements/gCZ's use jetpack to relocate or/and fight...
  • ...and use shield projectors to regroup when u set heavy fire.
 
Are they, though? Remember, they're built out in the middle of nowhere with zero defenses or protections, in a universe where pirates can jump in from 100ly away, kill everyone, and be away before the police could hope to catch them.

A 'functional settlement' would account for the fact they're alone and basically defenseless. Even in cities, business and campuses put up walls and fences to keep people out, and this is out in the middle of nowhere! I really can't imagine a situation where any sort of organized settlement doesn't at least have low walls. And as for shield generators...heck, even the cheapest pirate has one.

Probably the closet comparison would be an old fortified house in the medieval ages:

View attachment 434510

The question isn't whether you can get out; it's why settlements would even EXIST if any pirate anywhere can carpet bomb any settlement at any time with zero risk.
You mean walls like this?
1752101995310.png

Or this?
1752102066255.png

Or defences like this?
1752102148924.png

Or this?
1752102531613.png
 
The most likely opponent is us. we're all equiped withh jump packs and SRVs capable of clearing a settlement.
Design defences that would deter you. The massed skimmers of some Horizons bases might work.
True, but at least fences would make you get in close and expose yourself to enemy fire, rather than standing behind a hillock 200m away and killing everyone in sight. Jumping into the air really should be a place of extreme vulnerability, honestly; you're completely exposed to enemy fire. It's really the range at which you can attack, and the inability of NPCs to respond, that's the problem.

While Skimmers are decent, I'd really like to see greater diversity there. Their lasers are way too effective against small weak targets. The ideal would be either slow-moving projectiles you can dodge but keep you on the move, OR a sort of laser sight indicator telling you you're being targeted and to seek cover. The exploding ones are pretty nice too; being able to shoot them down as they move towards you is good fun. Or, you know, bomber ones that drop grenades on you, that sort of thing.


I doubt FDev will fundamentally change what currently exists, though...
Not in the short term, probably. But I could see them at least start by putting fences around settlements to block long-range fire, and perhaps coding NPCs to use shield grenades in response to rocket bombardment.


You mean walls like this?
View attachment 434531
Or this?
View attachment 434532
Or defences like this?
View attachment 434533
Or this?
View attachment 434534

Essentially, yeah. Those sorts of defenses just aren't actually present in the majority of cases, and when they are, aren't actually effective enough to matter.

Trust me, I've nuked more than my fair share of odyssey NPCs from the air.
 
Essentially, yeah. Those sorts of defenses just aren't actually present in the majority of cases, and when they are, aren't actually effective enough to matter.

Trust me, I've nuked more than my fair share of odyssey NPCs from the air.
FDev should definitely make better use of their assets.
I've fought in some very well defended bases (especially when they were overrun with Thargoids!) but some are pretty pathetic.
 
Simple solution to any defence- land 2 km away, drive up in SRV, jump over wall, massacre population with silenced tormentor (disabling of alarms is optional). Same result, just took longer.

I tested out a silenced oppressor on a military settlement that ended up being tipped off I was coming, so even having all the NPCs including enforcers actively hunting me wasn't an issue. There is no possible defence that this game can throw up that can stop me without a complete ground up rewrite.

If anything is needed it's better separation of mission rewards, so that a settlement massacre of Billy-Bob's family mining operation is worth pennies, and the same mission in a military stronghold is worth considerably more. Throw in more Omnipol patrolling inside buildings as well and an evidence room full of Hush and Lazarus too in those bigger military settlements too.

I say this knowing full well where suggestions of adding more risk and rewards go.
 
I doubt we'll ever see fundamental changes or profound upgrades to the on foot aspect. I don't think anyone in FDEV knows how to do a good ground shooter. What we have also feels and looks as if it was made by an entirely different team, if not outright outsourced. And then there's how the release went. Interest was massive. Player count on Steam alone went up to over 27000 players on release, a figure never reached before and never reached again since. And then it crashlanded so hard that it for sure killed the idea of regular paid DLC and nearly killed the game itself. If I had landed a disaster like that I would also shy away from ever doing anything major with it again.
 
Straight to the bin, or if being debated, to the Hotel...

Still the same old call for EDO to be COD in space, rather than a fairly unique combat method 🤷‍♂️
Personally I always seem to see a disconnect with the comments about Odyssey and the reality what other games are.

Mass Effect (the main trilogy) for example was a massive AAA franchise spanning 6 years as a focused third person shooter, occasionally going so far as to employ ground vehicles. Everything was built around this. That's without considering the significant RPG elements outside the mission gameplay that takes up the inter- mission down time. It's like saying Odyssey isn't as good as Cyberpunk 2077.

What we've got with Odyssey is an exploration and stealth / combat oriented add-on to a main game with completely different gameplay. Is it perfect, no, obviously. Is it a fun aside to the main part of the game, which mostly involves flying a space ship? In my opinion, yes. It's nice having some extra activities that still contribute to what I'm doing elsewhere in the game. Comparing it to standalone, built from the ground up first/third person combat games and making comparisons and judgements based on that is just silly though.
 
Simple solution to any defence- land 2 km away, drive up in SRV, jump over wall, massacre population with silenced tormentor (disabling of alarms is optional). Same result, just took longer.

I tested out a silenced oppressor on a military settlement that ended up being tipped off I was coming, so even having all the NPCs including enforcers actively hunting me wasn't an issue. There is no possible defence that this game can throw up that can stop me without a complete ground up rewrite.

If anything is needed it's better separation of mission rewards, so that a settlement massacre of Billy-Bob's family mining operation is worth pennies, and the same mission in a military stronghold is worth considerably more. Throw in more Omnipol patrolling inside buildings as well and an evidence room full of Hush and Lazarus too in those bigger military settlements too.

I say this knowing full well where suggestions of adding more risk and rewards go.
You're absolutely right, but that's also absolutely okay. You could easily imagine it being against the rules to be seen jumping over the wall, and then poof, you're gone from a random dude walking in to an infiltration. And you've also justified the addition at some point of a variety of actual sniper rifles, because they CAN exist in a universe where they're not completely overpowered by virtue of endless sight lines.


I doubt we'll ever see fundamental changes or profound upgrades to the on foot aspect. I don't think anyone in FDEV knows how to do a good ground shooter. What we have also feels and looks as if it was made by an entirely different team, if not outright outsourced. And then there's how the release went. Interest was massive. Player count on Steam alone went up to over 27000 players on release, a figure never reached before and never reached again since. And then it crashlanded so hard that it for sure killed the idea of regular paid DLC and nearly killed the game itself. If I had landed a disaster like that I would also shy away from ever doing anything major with it again.

I'd like to think they can learn from their mistakes. The fundamental problems with Odyssey had far more to do with the hackjob optimization, imo, than anything else; that is what killed playing for me personally for upwards of a year until they got it to a reasonable state AND I got a new PC.

The thing is, they have all the hardest part done. They've done the core design, and from what it looks like, they've actually done it over-well. The suit parts mechanic, for example, seems clearly designed for the implementation of a FAR more complex suit design and engineering system. What it REALLY looks like to me is, they were about halfway through the development cycle, they had a pre-alpha ready, and they ran out of money, so they threw it out in what was essentially an early access state.

That completed, the remainder SHOULD be possible to do, especially if it's monetized along the way. New suit ARX early access, for instance, each time paired with new content and such. Like, they rework exobiology AND release a new exobio suit for cave delving or something, to go along with the new caves they add. They rework settlement defenses and release a new stealth suit, perhaps. Etc, etc.

The core challenge is, they need to get baseline Odyssey up to a sufficient state where there is enough DEMAND for new suits.
 
The core challenge is, they need to get baseline Odyssey up to a sufficient state where there is enough DEMAND for new suits.
Demand can only come from new gameplay, requiring a new suit. As it stands the planet generation doesn't support caves, so that would have to get revamped a second time. I could see a new suit type for EVA in the future, should that ever be a thing.
 
Back
Top Bottom