FA-off noob academy?

[JustKneller]

I'm fascinated with flying FA-off and really like the feel if it (minus the feel of bouncing around the inside of a space station). I know there are discords and squadrons out there dedicated to this practice, but I don't use discord and my play time is hard to plan so I can't realistically coordinate with a squadron mentor. As such, I thought I would post here and panhandle for some coaching. I'm not terribly media savvy, but I can manage to upload an unedited video to YT. I figure I'd post what I'm trying to do with some notes on what I was thinking, and then the community can gang up on me and tell me all the ways that I'm wrong. I mean, if there's one thing you can depend on from the internet, it's that.

So, here's my first video. I'm at Coelho Station and trying (for the first time) the tethering from Moxen Wolf's YT with a FA-off take off and landing (well, mostly, for the landing).

0:15 Notice how I drifted a bit to port on take off? I'm not sure what that was about. All it hit was thrust up and landing gear retraction.

1:21 That was just rude. But, I stabilized myself FA-off so that's a win.

2:35 I wasn't showing off with the barrel rolling. I was using AD for roll when flying FA-on, but to make this easier to wrap my head around, I switched QE to roll and AD for strafe (and WS thrust forward and back), basically, FPS controls. I'm still getting adjusted and roll when I should strafe.

4:29 I can't seem to zero out my roll. I kept drifting slightly one way or the other.

5:03 Got tired of trying to just line up the tether with FA-off so turned it on quick to get in position

6:18 Finally get this started. I'm trying to keep the widget between the two lights, but I wonder if the stock Sidey is just too slow to keep up?

7:07 I start to get into a bit of a groove. I can't keep up, but I'm relatively stable.

8:21 Time to try and dock again. Really sloppy approach. This isn't going to go well.

10:46 Really struggle with lining up and approaching the mail slot. FA-on for a moment to stabilize.

12:15 Wasn't trying to be clever backing into the dock. But, I knew pretty quickly that it was by the mail slot and I overshot it. I figured that was the easy way to get into position. Notice that I'm drifting “downwards”, though. Is there some kind of gravity in stations? I frequently felt pulled to the "walls"...

12:44 ...which is how my landing gear snagged the JBD

13:09 FA-on to stabilize again

14:01 That one should have counted.

14:39 We have a winner!

 

[Rat Catcher]

Ignore... I replied in the wrong thread!

 

[Cmdr Snuffler]

What controls are you using?
M&K, Xbox style controller, HOTAS?

I am not a fan of the fact that some controls are a lot easier/better for FA-Off than others.
In my experience, M&K trumps HOTAS. I really wish Fdev would implement some kind of inbuilt joystick curves. Said the same thing back in the alpha/beta days.

 

[RadiKyle]

Forum doesn't show me the video link, no idea why, but here's some quick thoughts, more about practice philosophy than actual techniques. (Caveat I generally don't use FA-off.)

Just like in real life each FCS mode has intended purposes. Although you can try to do everything with any mode, that's not the point. Stability augmented modes like FA-On are usually intended to make repetitive / routine (or hazardous) tasks easier (and/or safer). They reduce your workload so you can juggle other tasks. I mean you can do station approaches, landings, and takeoffs FA-Off if you want, for skilz n gigglez, but imho it doesn't add any real capability that isn't already there FA-On (except maybe for racing...). Combat, however, FA-Off obviously opens up significant capability.

Point being: I suggest practicing on task elements similar to your intended use -- presumably combat manoeuvring and target tracking.

So personally my fav practice areas are asteroid fields. Unlimited targets and visual references for drilling all kinds of tasks: aligning on targets, strafe circling them, matching rotations, switching targets, toggling FA on/off, etc. (And you can also practice many of the same techniques that you could use at stations, but without dealing with station timers, NPCs, etc.) And then a steady supply of NPCs for moving target drills..., and ultimately actual combat "practice".

Aside: I think Elite's FCS is pretty limited, and FA-off is not a well designed FCS mode tbh. (Tho kudos to them for actually including it ) But like most things in the game, I guess making things more real world would make them "too easy" and they don't want perfect "turrets in space". So learning FA-Off is mainly learning the muscle memory to make it useful despite it's poor design. Most of the FA-Off "skill" is compensating for bad FCS characteristics that fight against you.

Sorry probably too philosophical, I'll be quiet now lol Cheers!

 

[JustKneller]

What controls are you using?

M&K. Here's my config for the mouse:

Spoiler: Mouse Settings

Point being: I suggest practicing on task elements similar to your intended use -- presumably combat manoeuvring and target tracking.

Sorry probably too philosophical, I'll be quiet now lol Cheers!

I get that it's unnecessary and possibly even ill-advised to use FA-off for everything, but I like the feel of flying better with it off. So, doing it for its own sake is my intended use. How's that for philosophical?

 

[aRJay]

M&K. Here's my config for the mouse:

Spoiler: Mouse Settings

View attachment 435001

I get that it's unnecessary and possibly even ill-advised to use FA-off for everything, but I like the feel of flying better with it off. So, doing it for its own sake is my intended use. How's that for philosophical?

This from a famous set of notes about philosophy and philosophers seems appropriate for FA-off.

"Immanuel Kant was a real p**sant​

Who was very rarely stable"​

 

[RadiKyle]

I get that it's unnecessary and possibly even ill-advised to use FA-off for everything, but I like the feel of flying better with it off. So, doing it for its own sake is my intended use. How's that for philosophical?

So skilz n gigglez it is then! Lol nothing wrong with that, just gives a lot more ground to cover. I still recommend asteroid fields as a great training environment.

Probably the most difficult part are the rotational axes. With FA-Off, motion in any of the 6 DoF isn't stabilized to damp out on its own, it keeps going and doesn't stop unless you manually stop it. In a single rotational axis that's not so bad to manage. But for various reasons there will be unwanted/unintended rotations in the other axes that you have to manually correct, continuously. You basically become the stabilization computer, in all axes simultaneously, 100% of the time. (Kinda analagous to old school stick-to-head helicopter FCS...)

Humans aren't terrific at coping with multi-axis rotations, so I say learning to control them, stabilize unwanted movements, and recover quickly from upsets (tumbling) is the main challenge of FA-Off.

I feel the translations (vert/lat/lon) are easier and more intuitive to manage. Especially in combat where we're kinda maxing them rather then zeroing them out (station landings are kinda harder in that respect). But aiming / target tracking is a very high-gain task that requires precise rotational control in at least 2 axes. So the rotations are both the most challenging aspects of FA-Off to control and used for the most demanding tasks (...which is why I say it's a fundamentally ill-suited FCS mode in real-world terms).

 

[Jaffz]

Forum doesn't show me the video link

Does anyone else get this? Youtube videos aren't clickable like on other forums

I get a tiny blue coloured link at the bottom of the screen

 

[JustKneller]

Probably the most difficult part are the rotational axes.

I would agree with this. It would be helpful if I had some kind of feedback on the hud that indicated my rotation and directional vector. All I really have is the throttle control which indicates if I'm going generally forward or backward. Then again, I wonder how much it would matter since, in space, your movement only matters in reference to other objects so you can kinda just eyeball it. I think that's what help me stabilize my tumble from the mail slot collision. I was right there so I had the base as reference.

The keyboard is also part of it though. If I just start a roll, I can counter by pressing/tapping keys, but I can rarely get it to exactly zero it. Once I start a roll, there's almost always a bit of a roll.

I feel like I get around a lot slower with FA off, though. Not sure what that is.

I get a tiny blue coloured link at the bottom of the screen

Does the link at least work?

 

[aRJay]

Does anyone else get this? Youtube videos aren't clickable like on other forums

I get a tiny blue coloured link at the bottom of the screen

It might depend on how many cookies you are blocking.

 

[nemolomen]

Ignore... I replied in the wrong thread!

Again?

 

[Blaggerdy]

Forum doesn't show me the video link, no idea why

Does anyone else get this? Youtube videos aren't clickable like on other forums

I get this due to cookie settings. Rather than reset them I re-open the page in private mode

 

[zeta]

I'm fascinated with flying FA-off and really like the feel if it (minus the feel of bouncing around the inside of a space station). I know there are discords and squadrons out there dedicated to this practice, but I don't use discord and my play time is hard to plan so I can't realistically coordinate with a squadron mentor. As such, I thought I would post here and panhandle for some coaching. I'm not terribly media savvy, but I can manage to upload an unedited video to YT. I figure I'd post what I'm trying to do with some notes on what I was thinking, and then the community can gang up on me and tell me all the ways that I'm wrong. I mean, if there's one thing you can depend on from the internet, it's that.

So, here's my first video. I'm at Coelho Station and trying (for the first time) the tethering from Moxen Wolf's YT with a FA-off take off and landing (well, mostly, for the landing).

0:15 Notice how I drifted a bit to port on take off? I'm not sure what that was about. All it hit was thrust up and landing gear retraction.

1:21 That was just rude. But, I stabilized myself FA-off so that's a win.

2:35 I wasn't showing off with the barrel rolling. I was using AD for roll when flying FA-on, but to make this easier to wrap my head around, I switched QE to roll and AD for strafe (and WS thrust forward and back), basically, FPS controls. I'm still getting adjusted and roll when I should strafe.

4:29 I can't seem to zero out my roll. I kept drifting slightly one way or the other.

5:03 Got tired of trying to just line up the tether with FA-off so turned it on quick to get in position

6:18 Finally get this started. I'm trying to keep the widget between the two lights, but I wonder if the stock Sidey is just too slow to keep up?

7:07 I start to get into a bit of a groove. I can't keep up, but I'm relatively stable.

8:21 Time to try and dock again. Really sloppy approach. This isn't going to go well.

10:46 Really struggle with lining up and approaching the mail slot. FA-on for a moment to stabilize.

12:15 Wasn't trying to be clever backing into the dock. But, I knew pretty quickly that it was by the mail slot and I overshot it. I figured that was the easy way to get into position. Notice that I'm drifting “downwards”, though. Is there some kind of gravity in stations? I frequently felt pulled to the "walls"...

12:44 ...which is how my landing gear snagged the JBD

13:09 FA-on to stabilize again

14:01 That one should have counted.

14:39 We have a winner!

You can pick whatever control method, two sticks, sticks and throttle, mouse and a stick, mouse and keyboard, ... there are top racing/hooning and pvp pilots using any one or several methods.

Whichever you pick, give it careful thought how you configure it (and at least for this join Newton's Gambit or DOJO discord) because retraining your neural / muscle memory can be difficult.

One thing that helped me initially was to separate thruster inputs from translational/rotational (pitch / yaw / roll). In elite yaw is hampered (tho cobra mk5 and small ships are ok) so at the minimum, put pitch and yaw (possibly roll too if using a stick) in the right hand (assuming you are right handed) and thruster inputs in the left.

Another exercise initially that works in tandem with MoxenWolf's excellent introduction is to isolate inputs, focus on one rotational and thruster input only:

1. Pick a stationary object to orbit around, nav beacon, cargo, asteroid, whatever.

2. Come to full stop with faon.

3. disable yaw, roll, and lateral (left/right) thrusts.

4. turn on faoff

5. thrust down slightly and pitch up slightly, keep your nose on the object

6. use forward thrust(small pulses) and pitch up to orbit the object. up or up+fwd thrust tightens the orbit, down or down+bwd thrust loosens it

7. rinse and repeat. It can help to pick an object you can target to watch your distance to it (nav beacon)

After you master it, do the same with yaw and lateral thrusts (eagle, viper, cobra mk5, dbs)

Later on you can add boost, landing gear, ...