Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?

[Agony_Aunt]

One of the typical rebuttals used in the P2W debate over FD selling ships for real money is "How can it be P2W if there is nothing to win?"

Its a rather narrow view of what P2W is, but let's look at the current CG from the perspective of that particular point.

The new CG is a hauling CG, one that provides extra rewards (credit on completion, extra cargo racks for those in the top 75%, plus massive profits on each unit sold as part of the CG).

FD just released the biggest hauler in the game by far in terms of capacity for real money (if anyone dares to say "But you can buy it with ARX earned through playing the game" please go step on a lego - it would take almost a year of playing to get enough ARX to earn it without paying cash, the CG would be long over).

This means that those that paid cash for the PC have a (EDIT: because people kept quibbling about the number) 1.4x advantage over anyone who hasn't paid for the ship. Those who don't have the PC will be able to haul less (and the Type 9, the next biggest cargo ship has a worse jump range, meaning deliveries take longer), earning less credits, and less chance of getting into the top 75%.

When looking at P2W its worth comparing two people who are of the same skill level, have the same amount of play time, etc, the only difference being is one of them opened their wallet and the other didn't, then ask the question, did the person who opened their wallet gain an advantage denied to the other person?

I think the answer here is a resounding yes. The new CG is in effect an extra reward to those who opened their wallets.

 

[Brrokk]

One of the typical rebuttals used in the P2W debate over FD selling ships for real money is "How can it be P2W if there is nothing to win?"

Its a rather narrow view of what P2W is, but let's look at the current CG from the perspective of that particular point.

The new CG is a hauling CG, one that provides extra rewards (credit on completion, extra cargo racks for those in the top 75%, plus massive profits on each unit sold as part of the CG).

FD just released the biggest hauler in the game by far in terms of capacity for real money (if anyone dares to say "But you can buy it with ARX earned through playing the game" please go step on a lego - it would take almost a year of playing to get enough ARX to earn it without paying cash, the CG would be long over).

This means that those that paid cash for the PC have a huge, almost 2x advantage over anyone who hasn't paid for the ship. Those who don't have the PC will be able to haul less (and the Type 9, the next biggest cargo ship has a worse jump range, meaning deliveries take longer), earning less credits, and less chance of getting into the top 75%.

When looking at P2W its worth comparing two people who are of the same skill level, have the same amount of play time, etc, the only difference being is one of them opened their wallet and the other didn't, then ask the question, did the person who opened their wallet gain an advantage denied to the other person?

I think the answer here is a resounding yes. The new CG is in effect an extra reward to those who opened their wallets.

I just bought the Panther with ARX which I gained by playing the game, so I think I avoided the Lego.

 

[anShpan]

This means that those that paid cash for the PC have a huge, almost 2x advantage over anyone who hasn't paid for the ship.

At the moment top 75% is 1,234 tons. Which is 2 runs in Cutter and only... 2 runs in PCII. What a win, what a win!

I think the answer here is a resounding yes. The new CG is in effect an extra reward to those who opened their wallets.

And is seems like those who did not opened theirs now "won" a pleasure of checking content of wallets of those who did opened.

I wonder if anyone who paid for PCII will respond here with statement that a main reason for purchase is winning anything, and not those like:

• I like to fly new ships
• I don't bother to wait
• I would like to support this direction of ED development
• etc.

 

[Three Stars]

I'd have more sympathy for this argument if it didn't include a notable exaggeration for dramatic effect.

A PC can bring 1238 tons at most. A cutter can bring 794 tons at most. That's assuming that the hypothetical people put nothing but cargo racks in their hypothetical ships which isn't always feasible.

Anywho, that's actually a "huge" 1.56x advantage. It helps us to take these things more seriously when you show that you're not just throwing numbers out there.

Edit: Knowing these numbers tells you that there will be thresholds of participation where you’ll have to do an extra trip with the PC anyway to achieve certain numbers, which kind of puts a pin in the overwhelming advantage.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

Yeah by some miracle I had 22,000 Arx in my account from playing for years so I bought a Panther Clipper for 'free'. Or play to win I guess.

I might even deliver one ton of cargo for this CG. Possibly two.

 

[Factabulous]

'Win' is at 75% - as pointed out above - not that high.

I think this CG is a better indicator of design confusion - if going forward you need to buy 'certain ships' to get extra space in size 7/8 slots, but 'certain modules' for more space in size 5/6 then it just adds to the pile of confusing stuff in the game. But hey - will keep the forums humming

 

[Mr Lindsay]

Outside of people shooting for the Top 10 spots for bragging rights, the ship used is essentially meaningless next to time spent.

You could comfortably make the Top 75% using a Vulture if you have all weekend to play.
You could easily fail to make the Top 75% using Panther if you only have enough time for one trip.

Play as much as you want, with whatever ship you want, and see where the results sit. Just throwing in 1 tonne gets you most of the rewards.

 

[rootsrat]

One of the typical rebuttals used in the P2W debate over FD selling ships for real money is "How can it be P2W if there is nothing to win?"

Its a rather narrow view of what P2W is, but let's look at the current CG from the perspective of that particular point.

The new CG is a hauling CG, one that provides extra rewards (credit on completion, extra cargo racks for those in the top 75%, plus massive profits on each unit sold as part of the CG).

FD just released the biggest hauler in the game by far in terms of capacity for real money (if anyone dares to say "But you can buy it with ARX earned through playing the game" please go step on a lego - it would take almost a year of playing to get enough ARX to earn it without paying cash, the CG would be long over).

This means that those that paid cash for the PC have a huge, almost 2x advantage over anyone who hasn't paid for the ship. Those who don't have the PC will be able to haul less (and the Type 9, the next biggest cargo ship has a worse jump range, meaning deliveries take longer), earning less credits, and less chance of getting into the top 75%.

When looking at P2W its worth comparing two people who are of the same skill level, have the same amount of play time, etc, the only difference being is one of them opened their wallet and the other didn't, then ask the question, did the person who opened their wallet gain an advantage denied to the other person?

I think the answer here is a resounding yes. The new CG is in effect an extra reward to those who opened their wallets.

Nah, bit dramatic.

Everyone wins in this CG. If you're top 75%, you get 1 set of modules extra. Not that much of a win tbh, as other still get the same prizes (just not as many).

And it's rather easy to get to top 75% without a Panther anyway.

I'd say not quite pay2win, but definitely pay2advantage.

 

[Aashenfox]

I certainly can't deny you'r point that between release and now, things have certainly got a lot more 'pay to win'-ey. That's a bar rising from absolute zero to 'just a little bit', but of course that is an increase in P2Wness of infinity%, which sounds pretty high Statistical manipulation aside, I get your point, but I say it's less about being pay to win and more about manipulating the customer. It really does take very little effort to hit these CGs to 75%, even the busy ones lately, it's still not hard, but yes, this is a slightly profanely obvious cash grab by FD to offer a hauling CG after putting on sale the biggest hauler in the game ever, for only money, yes, that's not sus or manipulative of the players at all.

I hope this is as P2W-ey as it gets cos it's right on the edge imo, but not yet crossed the line, just very cheeky business practice. It's like inventing a new bug spray then dropping a plane full of mosquitoes on the town.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

At the moment top 75% is 1,234 tons. Which is 2 runs in Cutter and only... 2 runs in PCII. What a win, what a win!

And is seems like those who did not opened theirs now "won" a pleasure of checking content of wallets of those who did opened.

I wonder if anyone who paid for PCII will respond here with statement that a main reason for purchase is winning anything, and not those like:

• I like to fly new ships
• I don't bother to wait
• I would like to support this direction of ED development
• etc.

Its only just started, its got 4 weeks to run.

And of course nobody is going to say they bought the ship for P2W reasons.

Regardless, the mechanics of the situation seem to speak for themselves.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'd have more sympathy for this argument if it didn't include a notable exaggeration for dramatic effect.

A PC can bring 1238 tons at most. A cutter can bring 794 tons at most. That's assuming that the hypothetical people put nothing but cargo racks in their hypothetical ships which isn't always feasible.

Anywho, that's actually a "huge" 1.56x advantage. It helps us to take these things more seriously when you show that you're not just throwing numbers out there.

Edit: Knowing these numbers tells you that there will be thresholds of participation where you’ll have to do an extra trip with the PC anyway to achieve certain numbers, which kind of puts a pin in the overwhelming advantage.

I always consider taking a shield (also, the Type 9 edges out the Cutter in cargo capacity if you're sticking a shield on).

Still, 1.5 or 2x, its a significant difference that only grows the more time that is put in - again, if we are comparing two equivalent players.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

'Win' is at 75% - as pointed out above - not that high.

I think this CG is a better indicator of design confusion - if going forward you need to buy 'certain ships' to get extra space in size 7/8 slots, but 'certain modules' for more space in size 5/6 then it just adds to the pile of confusing stuff in the game. But hey - will keep the forums humming

Still able to haul a lot more cargo in the same time, so that's a lot more profit per hour.

 

[kofeyh]

Its a rather narrow view of what P2W is, but let's look at the current CG from the perspective of that particular point.

Sure. We've had CGs for about 10 years now, so I'm sure this one is clearly different.

The new CG is a hauling CG, one that provides extra rewards (credit on completion, extra cargo racks for those in the top 75%, plus massive profits on each unit sold as part of the CG).

I wouldn't call it "massive profits" per-se. But sure, let's go with it being a profitable CG as have just about all of them prior.

FD just released the biggest hauler in the game by far in terms of capacity for real money (if anyone dares to say "But you can buy it with ARX earned through playing the game" please go step on a lego - it would take almost a year of playing to get enough ARX to earn it without paying cash, the CG would be long over).

And you'll be able to buy it in game in a lot shorter time than you can earn it, via monthly arx gain. So it's not a year. It's a few months. Like all the other ships have been.

This means that those that paid cash for the PC have a huge, almost 2x advantage over anyone who hasn't paid for the ship. Those who don't have the PC will be able to haul less (and the Type 9, the next biggest cargo ship has a worse jump range, meaning deliveries take longer), earning less credits, and less chance of getting into the top 75%.

1238 - 794 = 444 in the case of the Cutter (which still exists); that's about 55%. Where is the 2x coming from? The cargo difference between Type-9 and Cutter is trivial. I didn't think you were one to embellish?

When looking at P2W its worth comparing two people who are of the same skill level, have the same amount of play time, etc, the only difference being is one of them opened their wallet and the other didn't, then ask the question, did the person who opened their wallet gain an advantage denied to the other person?

The single biggest factor in CG progress for any commander, is time and it's disingenuous to pretend the majority of players have the same amount to invest, in order to make a point that that isn't a factor if we just pretend it isn't and we also pretend Carriers don't exist either.

The argument of "if we just assume all other metrics are the same, when they aren't, then it's not fair" is not really the winning argument it sounds.

I think the answer here is a resounding yes. The new CG is in effect an extra reward to those who opened their wallets.

The CG outcome will be the same as every other CG given the same factor is at play for each - time - time is the biggest factor. Always will be.

Look, I will defend your position on not spending Arx until they put me in a wooden box and shove me underground; everyone can make that choice and absolutely has the right to do so. But it is a choice, and pretending it's somehow not, because of a trade CG that is going to go for an entire month and that requires a single unit of commodity to obtain the first two cargo racks, with being in the top 75% (which remains the same ratio regardless of how much is traded) for the second two is kinda going out on a rope.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Outside of people shooting for the Top 10 spots for bragging rights, the ship used is essentially meaningless next to time spent.

You could comfortably make the Top 75% using a Vulture if you have all weekend to play.
You could easily fail to make the Top 75% using Panther if you only have enough time for one trip.

Play as much as you want, with whatever ship you want, and see where the results sit. Just throwing in 1 tonne gets you most of the rewards.

You can justify a lot by comparing players with different play times. That's why i included the point about comparing two equivalent players - one who opens their wallet vs one who doesn't.

 

[GroG79]

So far you need only 3500 tons to get into the top 50%. Where is the p2w?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'd say not quite pay2win, but definitely pay2advantage.

That's where we get into the quibble about what is P2W. Isn't P2A a form of P2W?

 

[Rat Catcher]

This means that those that paid cash for the PC have a huge, almost 2x advantage over anyone who hasn't paid for the ship. Those who don't have the PC will be able to haul less (and the Type 9, the next biggest cargo ship has a worse jump range, meaning deliveries take longer), earning less credits, and less chance of getting into the top 75%.

Well, about 1.5x, assuming everyone in the CG is using a T9 / Cutter against the PC II
So all of those poor souls who don't have either have not paid to lose, how sad.

When looking at P2W its worth comparing two people who are of the same skill level, have the same amount of play time, etc, the only difference being is one of them opened their wallet and the other didn't, then ask the question, did the person who opened their wallet gain an advantage denied to the other person?

They'd both be in the top 75%, in fact in the Top 10...

The new CG is in effect an extra reward to those who opened their wallets.

Oh goody! So I can do nothing and get lots?

 

[Three Stars]

I always consider taking a shield (also, the Type 9 edges out the Cutter in cargo capacity if you're sticking a shield on).

Still, 1.5 or 2x, its a significant difference that only grows the more time that is put in - again, if we are comparing two equivalent players.

Still, as I said in my edit above...the fact that this isn't a "2x" advantage means that no matter how you deck out the respective ships, there will be thresholds of participation where it will be the same number of trips in both a Cutter and a PC. Then the Cutter will need an extra trip for a bit...followed by the PC catching up again.

So, I guess we can wait until the CG is done to decide if the one extra trip is truly worth the P2W argument.

 

[Scoob]

I "Paid to Win" last night. I was doing some CG cargo runs in my old, reliable "Cargo Cutter" last night. Having not played much since the end of the Thargoid stuff, I was actually quite keen to do some hauling, having dipped in to the prior CG too. Surprised myself with that. Knowing the stats of the Panther II, I thought "it'd be far easier in one of those". So I got one. Now, I didn't pay to win strictly speaking, as I had enough gameplay ARX saved up. ARX which, of course, only seem to be worth less over time if saved. So I spent some. Robbed some engineered modules from other ships, bought a few new modules, engineered those and I was up and running in a Panther II with 1,220 Cargo capacity.

I only did this because I was having relaxing fun doing cargo hauling, yet there was a better way available to me to do it. It's very unlikely I'd have spent actual money on a Panther II, but I did still use hoarded ARX. Spending ARX gave me an advantage over others who did not spend ARX. Undeniable.

Having played since the start, as you can imagine, I have dozens (40 or so) heavily Engineered ships, a Fleet Carrier, hundreds of stored Engineered modules, loads of materials, and Billions of credits. For me, it's not much of a "short cut" to get a better ship - at least, it doesn't feel like it. Picture a new player though. They feel they're missing out because they only have a "lesser" ship for this role. They don't want to grind out credits - don't blame them, even though it's as easy as it's ever been - but they want to make the big bucks from the CG now. They buy a Panther II and now they're hauling with the big boys. Good for them, but are they missing out on that "natural" progression?

Now, I've done my time using "lesser" ships for a given role, and progressing to bigger and better stuff was a massive part of the game's appeal to me. Of course, I could just have waited and bought a Panther II with credits once it came out. If I'd not started playing again recently, largely on a "I'm bored" whim, I'd most likely have done exactly that. For me, it's not "pay to win" as I can EASILY afford to buy a Panther II with credits, I'm just not allowed to. Yet. For others, they can't afford it - or perhaps another ship they're after - so they reach into their pocket. I really don't have a problem with this.

This is like when credits became progressively easier and easier to accrue over time. Perhaps some here remember the WEEKS of hard-core hauling it took (couple of hours after work if you're allowed lol) to save up for that next ship. Little in the way of external tools available, relatively little profit to be had. I remember when the Rares circuit was THE way to make credits, but you had to work at it. Fun. I still do it from time to time for nostalgias sake, often in a "lesser" ship. It took me months to progress from a Type 6 - which felt like a solid upgrade from what I had before - to a the Type 7 which was a revelationary upgrade at the time. With credits being so easy now, you quite literally could go from a Sidewinder to an Anaconda with relative ease over a couple of play sessions if you're focused. When I got an Anaconda, long before Engineering was a thing, it was a major event and burnt through half my funds to buy and equip. It really felt like an accomplishment though.

So, with the ability to obtain credits being arguably the easiest it's ever been, especially if you're happy to grind a bit, then how much of a bump is buying a ship with real money giving people? Plenty of us don't have much time to play, but they want to experience things now. Fine by me. The Engineering grind's still gonna get 'em eventually though, that'll learn 'em lol.

 

[Frankymole]

FD just released the biggest hauler in the game by far in terms of capacity for real money (if anyone dares to say "But you can buy it with ARX earned through playing the game" please go step on a lego - it would take almost a year of playing to get enough ARX to earn it without paying cash, the CG would be long over).

Yebbut you could've been earning and saving weekly Arc from a year ago onwards. Did you know that you can also get Arx playing on Legacy, so essentially 800 per week instead of 400?