Core Dynamics is an entirely irrelevant manufacturer now...

[Aashenfox]

I feel like you obsess too much over stats and "best". There's plenty of quality and viable combat ships, the Fed and Alliance ships among them.

Sure, more CD ships might be nice, but i don't particularly care about the manufacturer of the new ships, mainly just their capabilities.



You have your opinion, I have mine. I'm debating the difference in opinions.

I am puzzled by how you seem to think ships have got worse when they haven't been nerfed, just because other ships were introduced.



Oh, we are talking meta now? I thought we were talking about viability.

Well, if talking about meta, might as well never fly anything but a Python Mk2 as a medium combat ship.

And there’s the problem. “Fine in the meta”.

Believe it or not, there are people who fly, design, enjoy, tinker with ships who do not give a flying fig about the meta. The PvP mentality is very narrow, very insular, and sets its self worth by how close someone can get to a very specific method of flying and fighting.

There’s more to being “objectively better” in combat than sizes of modules or a list of identical weapons, especially when things like hardpoint placement and weapon type suitability can be soooooo very different between ships. This isn’t even getting into a pilot’s individual preferences. Some people fly certain ships better than others.

Come on guys, I never said they are worthless, I'm known for flying off meta, I said they've been left behind. If I fly off meta, that means anything except a py2 and a FDL. Out of all those other choices, the CD ships are objectively the worst now, so given that FD said 'more focus on large ships this year', I want to shout from the rooftops, HEY YOU FORGOT CORE DYNAMICS! That's all.

Plus, pvp is a thing, my style of play is as valid as both of yours, and teh CD ships have fallen off, not because they changed, but because better ships were introduced while CD rested on their laurels. I demand remediation!!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Imagine the money they could make from Vulture and FAS mk2s though, let's hope adding a couple more medium ships won't break the dev team or their timeline. I'd love to see more variety in large combat ships too and yes, they did say that there would be more of a focus on large ships, which is fair enough, we've had a few, but Core Dynamics has been sorely left out Like I say I don't really think a corvette mk2 is needed, the corvette is CD's most viable ship currently. I'd like to see lakon or zorgon's take on a destroyer

Sure. Its all more power creep unfortunately.

 

[Aashenfox]

There’s more to being “objectively better” in combat than sizes of modules or a list of identical weapons, especially when things like hardpoint placement and weapon type suitability can be soooooo very different between ships. This isn’t even getting into a pilot’s individual preferences. Some people fly certain ships better than others.

Addressing this specifically, these soft concerns (space grip, hardpoint placement, hardpoint variety, boost duration and power, vectoring thrusters strength, pitch roll and yaw strength, space brakes, all of this) also tend to be better on the newer ships. Not across the board, the FAS's speed with a lightweight build is still nice, but ther4e are fastrer ships with better other features too (FDL, Corsair, Mamba). There's nothing about the FAS, FGS, or FDS' handling' or hardpoint placement that lifts them out of their slots as objectively the worst medium combat ships, no matter how much fun they still are to fly

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Yeh, I'd be happy with a FAS mk2 and a Vulture mk2, they're the important ones, the funship is a novelty with it's capital ship speed and firepower, I'll give it a pass for hilarity reasons.

I actually don't think a corvette mk2 is needed, but I'll take one! I like the sound of the narwhal, it better have a really long antenna on the front

I just think they might do a CD large combat ship, since that's probably going to go down well, but personally a few hull tanks would be nice if and when they do get back to mediums. Personally I would prefer more mediums myself since I can't remember the last time I used a large ship for anything other than hauling. I suppose I did use my Cutter for some bounty hunting one evening 3-4 months ago, but either way, I'm probably not going to be rushing to buy Arx for many new large ships.

Although with the Narwhal, as it was originally mentioned as the Federation presidential yacht before Hudson decided Farraguts made more sense, you would actually hope that would mean the Narwhal have some combat potential at least. I think there's potential there for a good all rounder anyway.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Come on guys, I never said they are worthless, I'm known for flying off meta, I said they've been left behind. If I fly off meta, that means anything except a py2 and a FDL. Out of all those other choices, the CD ships are objectively the worst now, so given that FD said 'more focus on large ships this year', I want to shout from the rooftops, HEY YOU FORGOT CORE DYNAMICS! That's all.

Plus, pvp is a thing, my style of play is as valid as both of yours, and teh CD ships have fallen off, not because they changed, but because better ships were introduced while CD rested on their laurels. I demand remediation!!

Well, again, they haven't changed, what we have is power creep with the new ships. So, if that is what you care about, mothball your Krait Mk2, your FdL, your Mamba, your FAS, your Chieftain, etc. Just fly the Python Mk2.

Adding a new more powerful CD ship, like you suggest in the OP just adds to the problem... which, unfortunately, regardless of the manfacturer, is what will happen anyway. Got to keep those pre-order ships selling by making them punch above their weight.

This is the concern I had when FD started selling ships for money. But people on the forums here poo-poo'd my concerns. Turns out a lot of people's concerns were being poo-poo'd and those people poo-poo'd other people. Ulitmately, the whole game could be ruined, by poo-poo.

 

[Aashenfox]

Well, again, they haven't changed, what we have is power creep with the new ships. So, if that is what you care about, mothball your Krait Mk2, your FdL, your Mamba, your FAS, your Chieftain, etc. Just fly the Python Mk2.

I would rather die, I'm trying super hard to make the Mandalay pvp viable at the moment and I'm pretty sure modded guardian chargers are the key somehow

Adding a new more powerful CD ship, like you suggest in the OP just adds to the problem... which, unfortunately, regardless of the manfacturer, is what will happen anyway. Got to keep those pre-order ships selling by making them punch above their weight.

Since you accept that the power creep is real, you should be helping me shout out to FD that they forgot CD!

This is the concern I had when FD started selling ships for money. But people on the forums here poo-poo'd my concerns. Turns out a lot of people's concerns were being poo-poo'd and those people poo-poo'd other people. Ulitmately, the whole game could be ruined, by poo-poo.

I more than forgive them for keeping a game like this alive for 10 years without the millions of players that big publishers would demand or cut off service. If this is what it takes, I'm good with it, just don't leave out Core Dynamics.

Also...
Come here Darling!

 

[PilotB]

Since you accept that the power creep is real, you should be helping me shout out to FD that they forgot CD!

Embrace the power creep. Bide your time. The longer you wait the more OP they'll be when they finally arrive. You don't want them early you want them late so they're epic for the next decade.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Since you accept that the power creep is real, you should be helping me shout out to FD that they forgot CD!

I don't really care about which manufacturer the new ships come from. I don't object to new ships from CD though. As long as they look like an iron!

I more than forgive them for keeping a game like this alive for 10 years without the millions of players that big publishers would demand or cut off service. If this is what it takes, I'm good with it, just don't leave out Core Dynamics.

On the one hand I agree, but their need to sell ships remains a sore point for me since I feel it came about due to their years of neglect of ED while they chased the status of being a third party publisher and other missteps they made. If they had focused on ED all those years, making DLCs and selling those, we might not be in this situation. I do like the renewed focus on ED though and hope FD keep it up.

Also... Come here Darling!

Heh, glad you got the reference.

 

[Three Stars]

Addressing this specifically, these soft concerns (space grip, hardpoint placement, hardpoint variety, boost duration and power, vectoring thrusters strength, pitch roll and yaw strength, space brakes, all of this) also tend to be better on the newer ships. Not across the board, the FAS's speed with a lightweight build is still nice, but ther4e are fastrer ships with better other features too (FDL, Corsair, Mamba). There's nothing about the FAS, FGS, or FDS' handling' or hardpoint placement that lifts them out of their slots as objectively the worst medium combat ships, no matter how much fun they still are to fly

The FDL objectively has sub-optimal hardpoints for things that don't inherently have 100 AP. Seriously. You get a huge hardpoint that's barely supported in its WEP draw by a class 6 PD unless you very deliberately go with efficient engineering or inherently efficient weapon choices. You get a bunch of mediums with AP values that do only partial damage to any ship that might actually be a threat. Since you then have to sacrifice one of them to get corrosive, that means you only really get 3 mediums. So yes, if you build it to the PVP meta specifications it does just fine...but that's really all it can do.

At least the Mamba gives you two large hardpoints...which are too widespread to be reliable with fixed weapons. It has the same PD/weapon mismatch as the FDL, so you again have to compromise with your weapon choices. We all know how it moves.

The Corsair's hardpoints are too widespread as well, and thanks to the Gutamaya round body problem and some angled hardpoint fittings, it's far too easy to block your weapons from firing at all kinds of angles around the ship. It also moves like a Disneyworld ride unless you do thruster assisted turns all the time.

So, it sounds like all ships have their own soft concerns.

 

[Shurimal]

You get a bunch of mediums with AP values that do only partial damage to any ship that might actually be a threat. Since you then have to sacrifice one of them to get corrosive, that means you only really get 3 mediums.

Hmmm... I wonder about one class 4 MC with corrosive, and four Concord cannons...

But lately "Concord cannons!" seem to be my only answer to a question "What to do with these medium hardpoints?"

 

[Aashenfox]

The FDL objectively has sub-optimal hardpoints for things that don't inherently have 100 AP. Seriously. You get a huge hardpoint that's barely supported in its WEP draw by a class 6 PD unless you very deliberately go with efficient engineering or inherently efficient weapon choices. You get a bunch of mediums with AP values that do only partial damage to any ship that might actually be a threat. Since you then have to sacrifice one of them to get corrosive, that means you only really get 3 mediums. So yes, if you build it to the PVP meta specifications it does just fine...but that's really all it can do.

The FDL is still the best combat ship in the game, the fact that the hardpoints have to be fixed is just one of the many sacrifices you have to make in order to get the best balance of physical size, maneuverability, vectoring thruster strength, hardpoint variety and distribution, and shield strength. I assume you're familiar with the basic pvp FDL builds? There are only three viable weapon loadouts, 4 short range rails and an efficient corrosive MC, 3 PAs and 2 rails (or MGPCs), and 5 PA. None of these weapons cares in the slightest about hardpoint size penalty.

When it comes down to it, these builds flown correctly, combined with the FDL's maneuvering and defense, are still unstoppable in pvp. There is no questoin that in the right hands the FDL is still the king, but you have to be able to really fly and shoot. This is not the case for the FAS. No matter how good you are, it can never reach the same capability of the FDL, it's mathematical, it doesn't have the thrust vectoring, the shield, or any other thing that compensates for its lack of those.

For fixed weapons, the FDL hardpoints are perfect, use any 2 mediums and the huge for your main damage dealer (use PAs), and you have perfect convergence, put the 2 rails on the right, again the reticles are basically on top of each other. This, plus the vectoring thruster strength under boost, are the main reason why it's still the best combat ship for pvp against other medium combat ships, all else being equal.

At least the Mamba gives you two large hardpoints...which are too widespread to be reliable with fixed weapons. It has the same PD/weapon mismatch as the FDL, so you again have to compromise with your weapon choices. We all know how it moves.

The Corsair's hardpoints are too widespread as well, and thanks to the Gutamaya round body problem and some angled hardpoint fittings, it's far too easy to block your weapons from firing at all kinds of angles around the ship. It also moves like a Disneyworld ride unless you do thruster assisted turns all the time.

So, it sounds like all ships have their own soft concerns.

The Mamba is a great ship, I use it A LOT. I could even say I mained it for a while after it came out. Its biggest advantage when it comes to hardpoints isn't the size, but hte fact that they are all on top of the fuselage, making it a perfect gimbal platform that can hit anything it can see in front of it at any time. It has a notably weaker shield multiplier than the FDL, while being faster and having slightly weaker vectoring thrusters. It is not a match to the FDL assuming pilots of equal skill, but it's probably the third or fourth best combat ship overall.

I agree the Corsair's hardpoints are bad. Fixed only, except the two top mediums and the top large, but hey, it has insane dps output, great boost, great speed.

Yes, all ships have their soft concerns but the CD ships don't come out top of the pile at anything, or even close.

 

[Aashenfox]

I don't really care about which manufacturer the new ships come from. I don't object to new ships from CD though. As long as they look like an iron!



On the one hand I agree, but their need to sell ships remains a sore point for me since I feel it came about due to their years of neglect of ED while they chased the status of being a third party publisher and other missteps they made. If they had focused on ED all those years, making DLCs and selling those, we might not be in this situation. I do like the renewed focus on ED though and hope FD keep it up.



Heh, glad you got the reference.

I still think the FAS is one of the best looking ships int he game, I just love it. I definitely hope it keeps design cues in the mk2.

 

[Three Stars]

The FDL is still the best combat ship in the game, the fact that the hardpoints have to be fixed is just one of the many sacrifices you have to make in order to get the best balance of physical size, maneuverability, vectoring thruster strength, hardpoint variety and distribution, and shield strength. I assume you're familiar with the basic pvp FDL builds? There are only three viable weapon loadouts, 4 short range rails and an efficient corrosive MC, 3 PAs and 2 rails (or MGPCs), and 5 PA. None of these weapons cares in the slightest about hardpoint size penalty.

When it comes down to it, these builds flown correctly, combined with the FDL's maneuvering and defense, are still unstoppable in pvp. There is no questoin that in the right hands the FDL is still the king, but you have to be able to really fly and shoot. This is not the case for the FAS. No matter how good you are, it can never reach the same capability of the FDL, it's mathematical, it doesn't have the thrust vectoring, the shield, or any other thing that compensates for its lack of those.

For fixed weapons, the FDL hardpoints are perfect, use any 2 mediums and the huge for your main damage dealer (use PAs), and you have perfect convergence, put the 2 rails on the right, again the reticles are basically on top of each other. This, plus the vectoring thruster strength under boost, are the main reason why it's still the best combat ship for pvp against other medium combat ships, all else being equal.


The Mamba is a great ship, I use it A LOT. I could even say I mained it for a while after it came out. Its biggest advantage when it comes to hardpoints isn't the size, but hte fact that they are all on top of the fuselage, making it a perfect gimbal platform that can hit anything it can see in front of it at any time. It has a notably weaker shield multiplier than the FDL, while being faster and having slightly weaker vectoring thrusters. It is not a match to the FDL assuming pilots of equal skill, but it's probably the third or fourth best combat ship overall.

I agree the Corsair's hardpoints are bad. Fixed only, except the two top mediums and the top large, but hey, it has insane dps output, great boost, great speed.

Yes, all ships have their soft concerns but the CD ships don't come out top of the pile at anything, or even close.

So for the other ships they're "concerns", but for the FDL they're "sacrifices"? Your bias is showing.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The FDL is still the best combat ship in the game

Funny, because for me, its the one medium combat ship I've never been happy with. The huge hardpoint is nice, but 4 mediums just don't cut it really. Over the years i've tried a dozen different loadouts on it, and just about any other combat ships works better for me. Also, the handling... ugh. Its probably my least favourite combat ship in the game. I do keep trying different things with it, but nothing satisfies.

 

[Aashenfox]

So for the other ships they're "concerns", but for the FDL they're "sacrifices"? Your bias is showing.

The FAS has nothing to make up for its sacrifices, the FDL does, that's the difference.

I have no bias, I very rarely fly the FDL, only in sanctioned play sessions/tournaments, with rules. I spent years learning to fly it well, like all good pvpers had to. But I try to avoid flying it, I prefer my challenger cos it's wildly off meta and shocks people, and the mamba cos I really enjoy flying it.

But yes, the soft concerns you point out, are so strong on the FDL that the minor sacrifices in certain practicalities are worth it, again it's not my bias saying that, I sometimes wish the FDL were removed from the game for exactly this reason. No one ship should be so high above the others that it's the only choice. But then I remember what it takes to get the best out of it and have to say 'ok, fair enough', it's not the best for most people, only a few people.

 

[Aashenfox]

Funny, because for me, its the one medium combat ship I've never been happy with. The huge hardpoint is nice, but 4 mediums just don't cut it really. Over the years i've tried a dozen different loadouts on it, and just about any other combat ships works better for me. Also, the handling... ugh. Its probably my least favourite combat ship in the game. I do keep trying different things with it, but nothing satisfies.

If you don't pvp in it against other pvpers, you'll never appreciate it. PvE will never force you to learn to fly it right. This sounds condescending, but I promise you it's not, it's just the way the ship flies, it's really hard not to stall it, it's like a F1 car is difficult to drive. You'd be faster around the nurburgring in a ford fiesta ST than I would with a F1 car. Does that mean the F1 car is not the better race car?

 

[Three Stars]

If you don't pvp in it against other pvpers, you'll never appreciate it. PvE will never force you to learn to fly it right. This sounds condescending, but I promise you it's not, it's just the way the ship flies, it's really hard not to stall it, it's like a F1 car is difficult to drive. You'd be faster around the nurburgring in a ford fiesta ST than I would with a F1 car. Does that mean the F1 car is not the better race car?

All ships require learning to fly correctly/optimally no matter the setting they're flown in. That's not a FDL-specific thing.

I will certainly grant that the FDL requires more learning than just about any other ship.

"The FDL is awesome because it's high maintenance and runs only 3 loadouts" is not the kind of thing I'd put on the brochure.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Funny, because for me, its the one medium combat ship I've never been happy with. The huge hardpoint is nice, but 4 mediums just don't cut it really. Over the years i've tried a dozen different loadouts on it, and just about any other combat ships works better for me. Also, the handling... ugh. Its probably my least favourite combat ship in the game. I do keep trying different things with it, but nothing satisfies.

I agree with this ! The FdL and Corvette are the two ships I have struggled the hardest with to find a loadout that suits me as a PvE player.

If you don't pvp in it against other pvpers, you'll never appreciate it. PvE will never force you to learn to fly it right. This sounds condescending, but I promise you it's not, it's just the way the ship flies, it's really hard not to stall it, it's like a F1 car is difficult to drive. You'd be faster around the nurburgring in a ford fiesta ST than I would with a F1 car. Does that mean the F1 car is not the better race car?

I also agree with this ! I've seen duels in FdL done by players who have absolutely mastered flying. It's mindboggling and otherworldly to watch, but it's also something that I'd never even want to do.

 

[Aashenfox]

All ships require learning to fly correctly/optimally no matter the setting they're flown in. That's not a FDL-specific thing.

I will certainly grant that the FDL requires more learning than just about any other ship.

"The FDL is awesome because it's high maintenance and runs only 3 loadouts" is not the kind of thing I'd put on the brochure.

It really is an FDL specific thing. As for the brochure, it would say 'this car is probably not for you'. And it would sell millions

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I agree with this ! The FdL and Corvette are the two ships I have struggled the hardest with to find a loadout that suits me as a PvE player.

I also agree with this ! I've seen duels in FdL done by players who have absolutely mastered flying. It's mindboggling and otherworldly to watch, but it's also something that I'd never even want to do.

Took me a while, but finally found a Corvette loadout that i liked. Pure efficient beams on all but the small hardpoints (corrosive MC and scramble pulse) with thermal dump. Works a charm for me.