Its to empty and marketed wrong

[Toscaner]

The problem is MMO legitimately describes the game
Massively (400bn Star systems... can't get more massively)
Multiplayer (Yep, we are there, we are all playing the same game and can attack each other)
Online (Altho some wish otherwise, it definitely is)

Now, because there is more that affects that it could be dragged out after that but SAYING "Sandbox" is intrinsically undefined and most don't know what it is and would cause some to have to look it up and get that's it... well... see "Massively" again but don't work from a marketing side.

MMO is a self-defined and correct term, however people have played other MMO that are different in how they deal with it, but they are different.. and not Elite. Elite deals with it is a different way but that doesn't make it any less a MMO, just it deals with in a different way.

Now, back to marketing... using what the game IS and using words that actually SELL the product that can't be vague and unknown... how would you suggest it be properly listed? Let's see your marketing point of view.... (realize we are looking for ways to sell it, in a good way, and we will try and poke holes it)

oohh .. a marketing challenge.. i like it
i'm not a copywriter, but a few quick ideas:

"Find your own way through this multiplayer online Galaxy simulation.
Survive the void. Find the unknown. Trade and fight. Choices are yours. One pilot - One galaxy."

and finally the description DB himself gave (iirc):
"It's Elite. And now you can play it with friends."

ofc it would need more than that, but just for a quick demo..

edit: i just checked the website again, and it's not that different, what they write
one thing that sounds bit cheesy is two times mentioning "epic multiplayer experience"
and now i ask myself, who in the course of the beta ever thought "what an epic multiplayer experience"
that probably just caters to the wrong crowd.

 

[Cosmo]

and finally the description DB himself gave (iirc):
"It's Elite. And now you can play it with friends."

Actually in many cases people cannot play with their friends.

1. Cannot do missions with friends
2. Cannot share loot with friends
3. Cannot interdict with friends
4. Cannot hyperjump with friends
5. Cannot use a chat room with friends, because there are none
6. Cannot send mail messages to friends, because there is no in-game mail system.
7. Cannot use system chat, because there is none
8. Cannot send credits to friends.
9. Cannot form Wings with friends in open play.

 

[Marsman]

Agree with the OP to a point. It is all marketed wrong and all that does is setup expectations that will fail miserably leading nowhere good for anyone (people will feel ripped off, they will trash the game, less future players... although it may boost sales in the short term no one wins in the long term).

so very true. As it stands some people could have had mercy with it saying okay it´s a single player offline game, with some tacked on mulitplayer option.

Now since online is the only way to go but the product misses 90% of MMO staple features, I don´t see how this will end well

 

[Rearden]

The problem is MMO legitimately describes the game
Massively (400bn Star systems... can't get more massively)

I am sorry but the Massively in MMO refers to the massive amount of players, not the amount of instances a game has. You know that right?

Now technically one could say there is a massive amount of players connected to ED but that is besides the point when it comes to expectations. If there are 10 million people playing ED in solo mode there will be 10 million guys connecting to the server to download market data. Would anyone in their sane mind call that an "MMO experience"? Obviously not.

So ED will never be an MMO. Even if it had MMO tools (like grouping which no one knows how this can be even attempted to be marketed as an MMO without them) it still would not be an MMO when it came to end customer expectations. It can be multiplayer sure, but never "massive" in the common meaning of the term.

 

[Cosmo]

So ED will never be an MMO. Even if it had MMO tools (like grouping which no one knows how this can be even attempted to be marketed as an MMO without them) it still would not be an MMO when it came to end customer expectations. It can be multiplayer sure, but never "massive" in the common meaning of the term.

It would be an MMO if it had the essential social tools for proper MMO collaborative play. People in different instances and groups could then socialize and work together towards bigger goals.

 

[Toscaner]

Actually in many cases people cannot play with their friends.

1. Cannot do missions with friends
2. Cannot share loot with friends
3. Cannot interdict with friends
4. Cannot hyperjump with friends
5. Cannot use a chat room with friends, because there are none
6. Cannot send a mail messages to friends, because there is no in-game mail system.
7. Cannot use system chat, because there is none
8. Cannot send credits to friends.
9. Cannot form Wings with friends in open play.

yes granted.

but for me the most important would be:
- some way to meet, so i can help friends (with USS, interdicitons, missions)
- group chat or the like

that would be the most basic features, the rest can come later..

 

[avow555]

I think they have built a play area and next job is to bring it too life, which I am sure they will accomplish.
Enjoying testing so far and looking forward to release, then I'm gonna look forward to the next update, etc, etc...

 

[Ironhawx]

The problem is MMO legitimately describes the game
Massively (400bn Star systems... can't get more massively)
Multiplayer (Yep, we are there, we are all playing the same game and can attack each other)
Online (Altho some wish otherwise, it definitely is)

Now, because there is more that affects that it could be dragged out after that but SAYING "Sandbox" is intrinsically undefined and most don't know what it is and would cause some to have to look it up and get that's it... well... see "Massively" again but don't work from a marketing side.

MMO is a self-defined and correct term, however people have played other MMO that are different in how they deal with it, but they are different.. and not Elite. Elite deals with it is a different way but that doesn't make it any less a MMO, just it deals with in a different way.

Now, back to marketing... using what the game IS and using words that actually SELL the product that can't be vague and unknown... how would you suggest it be properly listed? Let's see your marketing point of view.... (realize we are looking for ways to sell it, in a good way, and we will try and poke holes it)

Exactly as David keeps saying, its a massive sandbox where you can do what you want. stop labeling it as a mmo, as mmo even fps etc means massive in scale as well as playerbase and player interaction. Stop using mmo and use persistent game world w/ multiplayer support upto 32 players at one time. MMO doesn't mean massive in terms of world but in terms of scale of the multiplayer, other wise any game that had multiplayer and had a perceivable large world could and would be listed as an mmo. Again if I were to market elite I'd call it more like a persistent galaxy where a player can do what they want when they want (aka sandbox) with multiplayer support for upto 32 players.

Those talking about 9000 ships on radar, if radar is function proplery wouldn't matter as i doubt you could fit 9000 ships in a 6km space. but hell even have 20 or so floating around a settle star system in sc, and in a station having same amt coming and going to make it feel like a living, breathing station would be much nicer than its current state.

Those stating we don't need these features seem as confused as David himself. He seems a little scatter brain more so in each video interview I've seen, touts massive galaxy and playing w/ other player then contradicts talking about how player interaction will become so sparse due to the size of the game. Again you could have the scale while not allowing the size to be the wedge that drives player interaction to non-existent, if features and functions that allowed those that wanted to could interact by having a few watering holes spread out here and there w/ hyper gates to connect that fringe space to those that want to escape civilization and explore the edges of space and be alone. People talk about things will change w/ dev added conflicts, but problem is some of us are possibly out of range of making it there due to ship limitations. When they said random starting locations I dont know if it was just a few locations or literally game randomly picked a star system that had an outpost/station and put use there. All I know is where I was put and where my free eagle is unreachable at this time till i get a cobra or higher and even then idk its 179ly away.

To the fanboi who is complaing about the "whiners" go kick rocks, I paid for this game just like others and yourself and I have as much right to voice my opinion as you do, and I'm not complaing I making observations, some of which seems a lot of community agree on that the game doesn't feel ready for luanch seems missing a lot of core components and we all rather it delayed and release to great critics reviews etc so the game can continue to evolve into the great game we all want it to be. However saying the game will do well and continue if those of us who have opinions with rationale to back it and not just blind hating on game, the game will fail and fail hard and all your post launch support will dwindle and stop. The game will review okish in current state, one of the complaints Id see is exactly that the game has an identity crisis, as well as I'm sure get nailed to the cross for no offline mode (which I dont care but as of now doesn't make sense) when there is literally no gameplay that makes it seem you need to be online, aka sporadic player interaction that david has been quoted as saying due to expanse, as well as lack of functionality for social aspect whether in terms of communication or gameplay.

Again I want this game to do well because what it does have so far it does pretty well, and hopefully continues to evolve into a great game, but in its current state its simply an ok game and that won't make any kind of buying craze for an already niche market.

 

[LVX156]

I think they have built a play area and next job is to bring it too life, which I am sure they will accomplish.
Enjoying testing so far and looking forward to release, then I'm gonna look forward to the next update, etc, etc...

I'm getting so sick of fanboys making excuses.

"But this is only Beta 1, of course there are things missing, the next Beta will be much better!"
"No, you can't criticize the game, it's only in Beta 2, wait until the next Beta, I'm sure you'll like it then."
"Come on, we're only in Beta 3, of course the game is unfinished, it will be finished when the Gamma is released, FD have said so!"
"We're still in Gamma, you have to be patient, the game will be amazing on release!"

Then what?

"But they always said the game wasn't finished at release! Yeah, I know you can't really play multiplayer and it isn't really an MMO and several core features like piracy are completely broken and WORSE than they were in the first Beta, but it will all be fixed in the next update!"
"It's only the first update! You have to be patient, there will be many more updates, I'm sure they'll add in all the mission content in the next one."

Do you think the reviewers will say "buy this game, I'm sure it'll be great in a few updates"? Of course not. Look at Elder Scrolls Online. Look at Wildstar. That's the future of ED, because of people like you.

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Exactly as David keeps saying, its a massive sandbox where you can do what you want. stop labeling it as a mmo, as mmo even fps etc means massive in scale as well as playerbase and player interaction. Stop using mmo and use persistent game world w/ multiplayer support upto 32 players at one time. MMO doesn't mean massive in terms of world but in terms of scale of the multiplayer, other wise any game that had multiplayer and had a perceivable large world could and would be listed as an mmo. Again if I were to market elite I'd call it more like a persistent galaxy where a player can do what they want when they want (aka sandbox) with multiplayer support for upto 32 players.

Frontier Development have consistently marketed the game as an MMO. As long as they do so, I will judge the game as an MMO.

 

[Rearden]

It would be an MMO if it had the essential social tools for proper MMO collaborative play. People in different instances and groups could then socialize and work together towards bigger goals.

I have very high doubts about this for mainly two reasons:

1) 32 player limits per bubble. There is nothing to be done about this, we have to deal with it if we want a space game with twitch combat. However there is nothing "massive" about 32 players. Although it is certainly true that most modern MMOs have some kind of instancing (and those that don't have all different kinds of problems - check out Mortal Online for an example if you like FFA PvP with full loot) they are rarely limited to such a low number in ALL areas. You may be in limited groups when going to run a specific instance but usually there are open spaces where you can interact (well... what passes by "interaction" on some modern MMOs is also up for debate) with everyone else on the server you are which usually means hundreds of players. Lets not even mention EvE where instancing is on the thousands (although it is good to note this is also the reason EvE will never have twitch combat).

2) As I mentioned in another thread the design approach that FD took to the game is not really meant for an MMO and will conflict with your suggestion of people in separate islands working with or against each other. It may partly work but never fully and most importantly not in a way that promotes conflict which is one of the main drivers of "emergent gameplay". The reason for this is that contrary to popular belief FD did not implement a "persistent universe" but instead created what I call a "persistent multiverse" where the actions you perform on "solo Universe" or "private universe" affect the outcomes of the "open Universe". This means that players can completely bypass all instances of other players in the "open Universe" and still affect its outcomes. IMHO this is a huge mistake for a MMO-wannabe (and also one of the reasons they cut off offline mode) but that ship has sailed, for better or worse we are stuck with this decision.

Additionally I would note that not really much thought has been put into gameplay mechanics in an MMO world. For example take a look at the docking problem at outposts, if there was only "Open Universe" 4 <censored> can dock there, go to sleep and no one else can dock at the station anymore until they decide to give us their permission by undocking / going offline. At the moment the workaround is to simply leave Open and join Solo / Private so you can dock but that no one thought about this problem denotes how much this game was not in fact designed to be an MMO or, depending on your level of cynicism, how much lack of experience FD has with online worlds as rule number 1 of MMO design: be <censored> proof. There are other examples of this problem in the game but this one is quite noticeble since it forces you to drop of the open play experience if you want to progress.

 

[specialsymbol]

I gotta agree, 400 billion stars is a great marketing term, but it's way too big compared to number of players. There is very little human interaction, and there's no fun in trolling NPC's.

Exactly the reason why I play solo and another reason why I want offline.

 

[Steve50]

It's space.. It's supposed to be empty.

To me it would seem wrong if I'm out exploring uncharted systems and I'm swamped by players. If you want to see a lot of people I guess it would be best to hang around Sol or other highly known systems. If I don't see another human player for the next 2 months it wouldn't bother me tbh.

 

[Ironhawx]

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Frontier Development have consistently marketed the game as an MMO. As long as they do so, I will judge the game as an MMO.

Thats my point if they don't want it to seriously flop hard upon release they need to stop labeling as such so its not judged on such, but at same time if they remove that and say its not then it will get hammered for being always online for what is otherwise a mainly single player game. Which Im still sure will get crucified for as there is so little player interaction and even then its p2p and now the the galatic scope is so large that players can't even impact commerce. I remember PB2 and beta 1 fish and superconducter or something from chango to aulin and back was such a great route and you saw in a cpl days the supply and demand reflected the mass amt of goods the players had moved to where it was no longer that great of a trade route and it happened to other popular spots, but now the scale is so large that it completely eclipses the player base.

I think thats the folley of elite, a folley I failed to see, is that the world is so epic in scale that the player base is ecplised by it and therefore can't effect in any real meaningful way not even with trade runs lol. They should've had the system setup but only expanded it out as the playerbase supported for the play area. That way you have enough room to spread out and not feel like you are all on top of each other, but the scale it is now is just stupid.

 

[Ironhawx]

It's space.. It's supposed to be empty.

To me it would seem wrong if I'm out exploring uncharted systems and I'm swamped by players. If you want to see a lot of people I guess it would be best to hang around Sol or other highly known systems. If I don't see another human player for the next 2 months it wouldn't bother me tbh.

Exactly uncharcted systems aka what i'd call fringe space should be low pop and few sporadic moments of interaction w/ ai or player and need special ships to reach there an explorer class ship, but to say space would be empty if man figured out how to colonize it and spread like wildfire which seems it did so much so that there is "controlled space" and factions now war over the boarders only possible if population can do so and that the governing body can enforce its rule/law upon the masses of not just the stations but the habitable planets as well, then protect and defend it. So with size of these spaces there would be more than the 4-5 ai ships floating about a star system.

 

[Ironhawx]

Wholeheartedly agree. But how should FD have marketed ED otherwise? Technically it is an MMO, just not your common type of MMO with many players on one monolith server and with mass battles being possible. It's also not your common P2P system since P2P connections are dynamically assigned and controlled by a single server. People need to realize that ED is so far from well known standards that it's hard to describe without raising false expectations.

Its not technically an mmo in any way other than the fact all the players do connect w/ one monolith server(s) aka the cloud to get commodity prices gal-net news streams thats it, not to support the players, the player 2 player interaction is handled by the match making built into their cloud server just like that of xbox live accept instead of telling the game to search for open group on a certain map, it does automatically add you to/connects you to another player or them to you and the map is already decided based on the system you are in. Nothing new about it, its simply automatically done by the server(s) with out user input. To call itself and mmo it may have a large player base connected to an info server but we are not existing in the same plane of space, nor is there really any multiplayer support. I don't want a bunch of hand holding or "missions" but would be nice to be able to group with friends and explore fight the power, pirate, bounty hunt etc.

 

[Coppermine]

Yet another moan...sigh..
Elite is huge, in fact it's MASSIVE. over 100,000 player are playing it, which I guess makes it MULTIPLAYER. add the fact that you need to connect to their server in order to actually play...guess what ???

It's not WoW, its not ES online, or any other more social, local online games.. Again it's massive. You can't expect to meet all the other players down the local tavern to swap stories...yet.

Please tell me how ED, isn't 100% MMO.

I have been in this since very early Beta and have enjoyed reading the many articles posted, although as a lurker. But lately, everything is so doom and gloom, that quite frankly, its pushing me away from these pages as they are so negative.

This game is brilliant, in my eyes. Maybe you need to be of a certain age to fully accept that realisation. Yes it's not finished, there will be much more to come, for which I am very excited for.

This game is entertaining for me, it doesn't hold my hand and I am grateful for that. But I hold the key for making my enjoyment complete, my imagination. I don't ask myself what is the point in doing this or that. I choose to involve myself/character in any decision or direction I want. I don't need explainations of the reasons. Try a real piece of roleplaying. You may just see it in a different light.

 

[Rearden]

Elite is huge, in fact it's MASSIVE. over 100,000 player are playing it, which I guess makes it MULTIPLAYER. add the fact that you need to connect to their server in order to actually play...guess what ???

Reminds of that great MMO called SimCity 4

 

[Deadlock]

This thread is just another example why "some" people shouldn't play Alpha/Beta testing, they expect a fully finished game.

 

[atlas974]

This thread is just another example why "some" people shouldn't play Alpha/Beta testing, they expect a fully finished game.

Well agree with you!

The game will be released on the 16 Dec and the release will be just the begining. Comparing it to games that been around for 5-10 years is a bit rude, as who can tell what Elite will be in 5-10 years?

 

[mattyboy1509]

I agree that ED should not be marketed as an MMO. It's really not.

I disagree that it's empty and soulless however. I think there's a mindset that games must have tons of quests which lead you along some sort of path to advancement. Some sort of goal. I prefer a free, open environment in which the player sets there own path and goals.

I actually enjoy just playing the game. The actual playing of it: flying, trading, missions, exploration, combat, upgrading, etc. I do not need some artificial story or goal at all. I just love playing a modern space flight sim. That's why I find it so confusing when people ask, "But WHY am I flying, docking, fighting? What's the point?"

The point is that it's fun. Playing the game is the point.

I do agree and I enjoy it although it could be bigger and injected events COULD give us the best of both worlds provided the players have not debunked off somewhere else. There is nothing wrong with a bit more excitement especially if its at nobody's expense.