Is Exploration too easy? Galactic center reached already before launch

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I disagree. In both Elite Dangerous and Space Engine it's a black sphere with lensing effect. Nothing more, nothing less.

The black hole effects are a lot cooler in Space Engine and Interstellar. They should cause much radiation damage to ships when players get close.

The black hole effects in ED should be awesome like in Space Engine and Interstellar

Zion Ravescene reached the galactic center Sagittarius A* ["supermassive" spoilers], the Black Hole effects aren't impressive compared to Space Engine and Interstellar. The black hole of Interstellar is claimed to be the most scientifically accurate.

Interstellar's Black Hole:

dnews-files-2014-10-binterstellar-black-hole-670x440-141029-jpg.jpg




SpaceEngine: To the core of Milky Way

[video=youtube;ODVLt4HTKQc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODVLt4HTKQc[/video]

P.S. there shouldn't be a random spawned NPC fighter near Sagittarius A.


It has always been quite clear that the gamma is about stability improvements. Game dynamic adjustments will follow once a stable code base is in place. Else you get people moaning: "sure, we have all these features, but they don't mean anything if the game isn't stable enough to be playable!"

Stability is important, but Gamma has too little content and variation for a soon to be released game. Maybe they'll add significantly more content, variation and random events at the release date that we haven't seen yet.

Some very important multiplayer co-op features aren't in gamma. People will judge this game as a shallow MMO that doesn't have basic MMO social tools yet.

1) Being able to form a group/squadron/fleet (whatever you want to call it), and give everyone in the same squadron a unique color on the scanner (e.g. blue)

2) Being able to perform 'shared' interdiction on targets. For instance, if two players in same squadron flying Eagles decide to interdict a Type9 then BOTH players should enter the interdiction at same time (if it is successful)

3) Reward for Bounties and Exploration data should be shared among everyone in the same squadron at the point when target is destroyed or the data is gathered (requirement being that those players are all in the same instance, e.g. for bounties being inside the same nav beacon, near the same station or in the same "interdiction instance" and for exploration being in the same system.

4) Player to Player trading as well as credit transfers need to be in. Why? Because miners might want to send cargo to a friend in a transport, and pirates want to steal loot, sell it on black market and then split the profits.

5) Modules and equipment which promotes cooperative gameplay need to be implemented... e.g. remote repair systems, remote refuelling and rearming and so on. This way an exploration team could bring a ship kitted out for repairs and such, or a squadron of players fighting for the Federation or Empire could go on a raid into enemy systems and be self-sufficient on repairs and rearming. It would promote cooperative gameplay and it would create a style of gameplay which is appealing to players who like the supportive rather than combat oriented gameplay.

6) Lots of other stuff... e.g. squadron-wide text chat and voice communication (although most would probably resort to Teamspeak/Vent/Mumble/Skype, be nice to have that option though) ... Station wide "global chat", e.g. being able to have a chat channel which is only heard by those docked at a station - text based only. This would help players, especially new players, by being able to raise questions to other players in an open forum while ingame... for instance "I got a message that my weapons are not assigned to a fire group, how do I do that?" ... or the famous EVE Online silly question "How do I move my ship?"

7) Even more stuff... I dunno... but we need more co-op features for sure.
 
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To me it sounds like people are just impatient. How long has ED been in development? That's a rather difficult question to answer. In some respects, they've been working on the technology for 15+ years. You could even say that the original Elite was a test of certain concepts they are building on here. But real, serious development on ED itself has only been ongoing for about a year and a half or so. I think people underestimate how much time it takes to create a game of this scale. I do understand the impatience to some degree. FD didn't help the issue by announcing such an early release date, but these days release dates don't mean much. People have already been able to buy their way into the game. It's not even like that's going to change.

As far as development is concerned, the release date won't change anything really. They will just keep working on fixing features and adding new features to the game, same as always. Whether it's beta, gamma, release, or post-release won't change that fact. The team has already committed to working on ED for the long haul. If they welch on that commitment, then we have a right to be angry. Until then, let's let them do their jobs.

I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss how existing and upcoming features should be implemented or fixed, but I think we can leave all the complaining about "why haven't they done x yet?" or "why doesn't this feature work perfectly already?" out of it. That doesn't accomplish anything, it just creates a more stressful environment.
 
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I think people underestimate how much time it takes to create a game of this scale. I do understand the impatience to some degree. FD didn't help the issue by announcing such an early release date, but these days release dates don't mean much.

After the release, there will be an avalanche of player feedback, reviews and complaints about the lack of content and important co-op multiplayer features. This does impact ED and sales. Unless they add more stuff and variation for the release-build on December 16th.

I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss how existing and upcoming features should be implemented or fixed, but I think we can leave all the complaining about "why haven't they done x yet?" or "why doesn't this feature work perfectly already?" out of it. That doesn't accomplish anything, it just creates a more stressful environment.

It's useful to show that players expect more from the release-build than Gamma.

You ain't seen nothing yet. After the release date there will be a large influx of new players on the forums who will say the same things like "is this all?", "game is repetitive" and "where are the MMO co-op features?"
 
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After the release, there will be an avalanche of player feedback, reviews and complaints about the lack of content and important co-op multiplayer features. This does impact ED and sales. Unless they add more stuff and variation for the release-build on December 16th.



It's useful to show that players expect more from the release-build than Gamma.

You haven't seen nothing yet. After the release date there will be a large influx of new players on the forums who will say the same things like "is this all?", "game is repetitive" and "where are the MMO co-op tools?"

You assume that'd be different if there was more content. You can't please everyone. There will always be an avalanche of dissatisfied players on any game's release. I don't think I've ever seen a game release where that wasn't the case. In my experience, the more content there is on release, the more bugs there are as well. You really can't win. Either you release with a small amount of very polished content, or you release with a large amount of very buggy content. Either way, people will complain.

Edit: I should state that I'm not defending their decision of release date. It's early, but it's what they chose and it doesn't really matter. It's not like it would have made much difference if they had delayed it for a month or a year. Exploration would be more polished and fleshed out, and there'd be more content in general, but then people would be saying the new release date was too early because the new content was still not where everyone thought it should be. It doesn't matter in the end. As long as development continues, the game will always be in an imperfect state, and people will always have plenty to complain about.
 
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You assume that'd be different if there was more content. You can't please everyone. There will always be an avalanche of dissatisfied players on any game's release.

Yes, the amount of dissatisfied people will be bigger if they don't add more content and MMO co-op features for the release-build.

I don't think I've ever seen a game release where that wasn't the case.

There's plenty of examples like Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. It's critically acclaimed with very high critic reviews (94% out of 100%) and user reviews (8.4 out of 10) see Metacritic.

If the release build of Elite Dangerous is the same as Gamma then it won't be critically acclaimed.


In my experience, the more content there is on release, the more bugs there are as well. You really can't win. Either you release with a small amount of very polished content, or you release with a large amount of very buggy content. Either way, people will complain.

I think there wouldn't be much additional bugs if they increase the amount of variation by expanding existing content. It shouldn't be complicated to add MMO stuff like system-chat.
 
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Yes, the amount of dissatisfied people will be bigger if they don't add more content and MMO co-op features for the release-build.

So, if they delayed the game, say a month, to add these features instead of fixing exploration and then released, would the amount of dissatisfied people be lower? I highly doubt it. Exploration would still have issues, and likely the new features would have bugs or lack functionality people would complain about. So, let's say they delay it a year. Maybe by that point the exploration and social features would be implemented and working and they'd be implementing new content. Come release, you'd still have at least a small group of people who are complaining because the chat system isn't like it is in EVE or CoD or WoW or whatever they're used to and they don't want to change (human nature). Every feature in the game has its small army of complainers who want it changed. More content = more complainers. That doesn't mean adding more content is bad. It's just the way of things. If it hurts ratings, you just live with it. It's the price of scope. Elite wouldn't be Elite without a big scope, it's kinda the point. Far more complaints will come in from the newly-implemented features that haven't been fully fleshed out yet - this is a "problem" that will always be present during active development. Instead of complaints about social features and exploration, you'll have complaints about how "this feature seems tacked-on" or "this feature needs more content", and only because it has had less dev-time devoted to it than everything else. Let's imagine they were to release sometime in the future shortly after implementing planet landing. "OMG THIS FEATURE SUCKS I BLEW UP WHEN LANDING", or "need to add more landing pads cuz i cant land without shooting someone". Noob city. Talk about an avalanche. This is going to happen anyway, it's just going to be worse if it's the day-zero build (release build). Complaints will always be worse and more plentiful surrounding the release date. Let's say they delay two years. It'll be the same #$%@-storm over some other new feature, only now you can add people complaining "Two years of delays for THIS?" to the mix of complaints. The only thing that might change based on release date and current build status is the amount of complaints, but good luck predicting that one.

In the end, you're talking about unknown quantities. If you have some way of telling when the perfect day to release a game will be to have the least number of complaints, please make this knowledge publicly available. There are a great many developers who could benefit from such a system. If I seem a bit jaded, well maybe it's just a symptom of age. I just want them to make the game they want to make. It'd be wonderful if people could just let them do that and not get emotional or crazy about it. But that's not the world we live in.

Honestly, I think the whole notion of a "Release Date" for a game like this is archaic and silly. It's already been available for purchase for months. The only thing a Release Date does is tell the critics when they can write their articles. And for people like me, who are long past trusting or caring about what paid reviewers think, it's all a lot of industry posturing and farce. But I will acknowledge that there is a great deal of money invested (wasted?) in that farce, but that is the only thing that makes it relevant, and only serves to highlight how obsolete the whole system has become.

There's plenty of examples like Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. It's critically acclaimed with very high critic reviews (94% out of 100%) and user reviews (8.4 out of 10) see Metacritic.

If the release build of Elite Dangerous is the same as Gamma then it won't be critically acclaimed.

Firstly, despite being "critically acclaimed" Skyrim was often described by critics as a stripped-down Morrowind with pretty graphics, and in fact fell short in many areas. It was a decent game, but it doesn't rate highly in my Steam list of most played games, though I can't say that counts for much since I play games as much for research as for enjoyment. It got high scores based on the fact that it offered a great deal of player freedom and it had beautiful graphics. Its value was more akin to an art installation than an actual game. It had great immersion - you could actually feel like you were a part of this fantastic world - but only to a point. Its gameplay was never that developed - it was a fairly generic hack and slash with a very nice coat of paint. In fact, I can point at numerous one-man-developed roguelikes with more intriguing gameplay and combat mechanics than Skyrim. It was criticized for its lack of depth and inherent grind by more discerning reviewers and "enthusiast press". In fact, everyone I know who still plays Skyrim plays with a ton of mods. I've actually had discussion with a few friends about it, and we've come to the conclusion that without mods Skyrim just can't compare to other RPG's once you get over the "oo, pretty" aspect of it. Some of the games we've compared it to are much, much older, as well, and can't rely on a graphics crutch. Baldur's Gate is almost universally agreed to be far superior to Skyrim. There's legions of Final Fantasy fans who can name a multitude of iterations of that series that are far more deserving of being "critically acclaimed" than Skyrim. And there's more. Maybe it's not fair to compare Skyrim to the all-time legends of the RPG genre, but really, isn't that implied by "critically acclaimed"? Then again, I don't see alot of logic in games journalism these days.

Throw in mods though and the game gets new life. But the credit for mods doesn't go entirely to the game they are made for (only insofar as crediting the developers for making it moddable in the first place). The creator of the mod should get most of the credit. The base game already gets extended longevity and publicity from people modding it and playing mods on it, it doesn't need anything more than that. This is also why people don't complain about Skyrim needing new features. People can get whatever features they want by either making them manually or getting them off the internet. The internet will ALWAYS have more dev resources than any dev team, and can even work faster in some cases. Also, the dev team stopped working on it a long time ago, so nobody bothers them about it anymore. Well, I'm sure some people do, but you get those yahoos in every industry.

Also, the fact that anyone takes Metacritic seriously anymore surprises the hell out of me. In fact, I rarely get any useful information out of traditional reviews these days. Most often, they only give misleading information and end up wasting my money. I think the problem here isn't the developer, it's the industry clinging to an obsolete system.

I think there wouldn't be much additional bugs if they increase the amount of variation by expanding existing content. It shouldn't be complicated to add MMO stuff like system-chat.

You might be surprised how the smallest change can tend to create some of the most complicated bugs. I don't really think we can form expectations of how long any given feature might take to implement, without direct access to the source code. That said, I agree that these are needed features and should be prioritized.

what? like a kind of DDF?

There is already a DDF. Do we need a dedicated space for whiners? I don't mean this to be inflammatory - it might actually help if we could separate non-constructive criticism from the constructive.
 
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people forget that not everyone gets the game now, some have to wait until 16th. release delays are bad PR. the game will get better as it gets stuff added.


this isn't a AAA title. it's a kickstarter project and beats most AAA titles into the floor already.
 
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people forget that not everyone gets the game now, some have to wait until 16th. release delays are bad PR. the game will get better as it gets stuff added.


this isn't a AAA title. it's a kickstarter project and beats most AAA titles into the floor already.

That's true now. In gamma nobody can buy their way into the game. People who buy the game now are effectively pre-ordering and have to wait. To delay release now would invoke a tremendous backlash.

I think the problem here isn't the developer so much as it is the industry. This is a rapidly evolving and changing industry and therefore it has its growing pains. The expectations placed on devs by the press currently tend to be unrealistic and generate unnecessary stress. The gamer public tends to be manipulated by the press, oftentimes via an equally manipulated developer. This has led to certain assumptions - like the expectation that beta should effectively be like a pre-release demo. But knowledge is the key - a better educated consumer base will make predatory marketing less effective and we'll be left with a more fair environment for both devs and consumers.
 
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And even more worrying is not a single report of anything out of the norm... ie: Not a single "rare" event or sight? ie: The huge worry every system is simply a variation on the previous you've seen...

If you know every system you visit will be a mixture of different orbital paths and different colors, does the drive to explorer diminish? Imagine if one of these explorers had reported an ice moon spewing out a stream/cloud of ice form active geiser? Or a strange asteroid which seems to have tunnels drilled into it you can fly/explorer around?

It doesn't worry me someone has already reached the core... It worries me they didn't report a single thing that stood out on the trip!

I respectfully disagree. Systems having different combinations of similar celestial bodies is something I expect, even in the far reaches of the galaxy. There have been a lot of things that stand out even in the nearer systems. The many screenshot threads about impressive sights people have discovered shows that there is definitely a lot to see (at least those are the things I hope to find. I don't expect alien bases and exploding stars where ever I go in far away systems). Furthermore, I believe FD have indeed hidden some nice variations and surprises throughout the galaxy. The first commander that found a black hole must have been impressed and surprised they were already included, even without any big announcement.

And to the question why it bothers me if someone already reached the centre: it takes away a lot of mystery. My worries are not that I am not the first to get there, but that an undertaking that should have taken much longer to complete (they haven't reached the centre in the time from 2300 to 3300, and noe someone gets there in 4 days? Sorry, but that is more than immersion breaking). Even if there is "only" a giant black hole in the centre in game, it's something we shouldn't have known for so much longer, IMHO.
 
as some probably have seen, the centre has already been reached
kudos to Zion Ravescene, infos in this thread (spoilers incl.)

now my question is, has FD planned or expected this?
from earlier interviews and dev diaries and the DDF it sounded very different.
exploration sounded like a real challenge, which would need proper planning and some luck too
the centre was supposed to be very difficult to reach, if at all

with mechanics like jump failures and searching for jump routes as well as finding the right celestial bodies to refuel this seemed plausible to take a very long time and maybe even need a team of pilots

now is that it? does exploration need new balance?
it surely would benefit from more mechanics, which we wont get till release.
how long will it take before many to most known interesting places will be reached? 1 more month?
are there enough interesting spots out there to keep exploration interesting for a longer time?

just a few question i ask myself atm, and bit of dissapointment.

What they did does not sound like exploration at all, but rather a race to the center of the galaxy. Totally different.
 
The black hole effects are a lot cooler in Space Engine and Interstellar. They should cause much radiation damage to ships when players get close.

No, the black hole in Space Engine is exactly the same as in Elite Dangerous: a black sphere with lensing effect.
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The black hole in Interstellar took a hell of a big computer quite some time to render. Elite Dangerous could add an accretion disc, but the effect won't be quite that ethereally pretty. And I suspect that the lensing effect is still a work in progress --as is the whole galaxy.
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Stability is important, but Gamma has too little content and variation for a soon to be released game. Maybe they'll add significantly more content, variation and random events at the release date that we haven't seen yet.

Some very important multiplayer co-op features aren't in gamma. People will judge this game as a shallow MMO that doesn't have basic MMO social tools yet.

Content takes time to generate. detailed content takes a lot of time to generate. Space Engine looks great on the demo videos but when I see user reviews of it, the rough edges show in the graphics. And pretty as it looks, it is basically empty. For Elite Dangerous to feel alive and interesting a lot of content needs to be added and that. takes. time.
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People here are unbelievable. We all sign up to a game that has never been tried before. Never. A MMO flight sim set in an arena with four billion stars. EVE Online hasn't tried it, Star Citizen is still just a pipe dream. It has never been done before.
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But you all expect Frontier to get it right at the first try; for there to be no bugs, no balancing issues, no game dynamic issues; for your wildest dreams to just drop in your lap, regardless of resources, time constraints or technological limits. Look, this is a venture. There's going to be experiments, trying out stuff, changing things that seemed like a good idea but don't work that well in practice. It's going to take time to build it all and get it all right. A lot of time. Join the journey or buy a game console and stick to finished products, where you know exactly what you get.
 
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I have no problem with him getting there - good on him took thousands of jumps probably will probably have made millions in the process.

Sounds about right to me. Still plenty to discover
 
I respectfully disagree. Systems having different combinations of similar celestial bodies is something I expect, even in the far reaches of the galaxy. There have been a lot of things that stand out even in the nearer systems. The many screenshot threads about impressive sights people have discovered shows that there is definitely a lot to see (at least those are the things I hope to find. I don't expect alien bases and exploding stars where ever I go in far away systems).
Indeed the engine has given us some wonderful simulations of planets, stars and other basic stellar objects. But if every system turns out to be (excuse the simplification) more of the same, and people realise every system will simply be a different throw of the same dice, IMHO exploration will soon lose much of its interest.

There needs to be things that stand out. Those one in a thousand objects/views. FD mentioned such things a long time ago, but I've heard little/nothing since.

As I said before, my fear is we will have another Generation Ship syndrone from Elite in ED.

Furthermore, I believe FD have indeed hidden some nice variations and surprises throughout the galaxy. The first commander that found a black hole must have been impressed and surprised they were already included, even without any big announcement.
I do hope you are right!

And to the question why it bothers me if someone already reached the centre: it takes away a lot of mystery. My worries are not that I am not the first to get there, but that an undertaking that should have taken much longer to complete (they haven't reached the centre in the time from 2300 to 3300, and noe someone gets there in 4 days? Sorry, but that is more than immersion breaking). Even if there is "only" a giant black hole in the centre in game, it's something we shouldn't have known for so much longer, IMHO.
Indeed! Someone used a nice analogy earlier. In ED someone need only buy some wellies in order to climb Mt Everest. ie: Anyone can reach the galactic core with no skill, just simply throw hours at the problem.

And my concern is too much of the game has gone that way. Even combat (at least against NPCs) is seemingly just thrust in the blue and pitch... fire! And all the flight assist tricks that could be used against players are now limited to a single manoeuvre (flight assist off boost turn).


Anyhoo...
 
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No, the black hole in Space Engine is exactly the same as in Elite Dangerous: a black sphere with lensing effect.

The black hole in Space Engine does look nicer with a cool effect when you get very close. ED doesn't have that.


The black hole in Interstellar took a hell of a big computer quite some time to render. Elite Dangerous could add an accretion disc, but the effect won't be quite that ethereally pretty. And I suspect that the lensing effect is still a work in progress --as is the whole galaxy.

It doesn't have to be as detailed as the movie. An accretion disc would be a major improvement.

Content takes time to generate. detailed content takes a lot of time to generate. Space Engine looks great on the demo videos but when I see user reviews of it, the rough edges show in the graphics. And pretty as it looks, it is basically empty. For Elite Dangerous to feel alive and interesting a lot of content needs to be added and that. takes. time.

Of course it takes time. It would be a lot better if they added more variation of existing station interiors, more random events, rare anomalies, artifacts to discover in deep space, and more random scenarios with NPCs (now it's only attack, defend or escape). The Mechanics are in Gamma that can be expanded with more content.

It's about having a decent amount of variation and content to keep people interested for a long time. Now after you visited some dozen solar systems you've seen every major peace of content and game mechanic. Then the game recycles the same limited content.

The other way to extend a game's replayability is to let the players make their own fun. However, Frontier doesn't provide the necessary social tools for that (group missions, full trade between players, slaved drives, system chat etc).

People here are unbelievable. We all sign up to a game that has never been tried before. Never. A MMO flight sim set in an arena with four billion stars. EVE Online hasn't tried it, Star Citizen is still just a pipe dream. It has never been done before.

There have been MMO space sims before ED: Jumpgate Evolution, Eve Online, Black Prophecy. The only differences are that ED has an awesome scientifically accurate, immersive, procedural simulation of the whole galaxy. The star systems don't have much content and random events though.

In my opinion the biggest issues are:
1. The star systems lack content and variation. Such as the guy who reached the center of the galaxy, what did he find? An underwhelming black hole distortion effect. The black hole posed no danger or radiation hazard. And the same distress beacon with a spawned NPC fighter that shouldn't be there. The whole thing is underwhelming.
2. Too few random events with NPC encounters. They can only interact with players through combat.
3. Missing multiplayer features means many people won't play it for more than a couple of weeks and people will criticize it.

The new players who will come here after release will complain about all that too if there's still little content and no decent social tools for an MMO.
 
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Firstly hats off to the guy who achieved the galactic centre, apologies for not remembering your name, long thread.

Secondly, it wasn't really exploration in the context of the game, it was a race! There would not have been time to do anything en-route. If my history serves me right, exploration usually starts once the end location has been reached. I wonder how much 'exploration' was done on the way to the South Pole? Not a lot probably, it was a race to the finish line. All the exploration and research (which is what this is about really IMHO) came afterwards and is still going on over 100 years later.

So I say yes well done for being the first there, but the 'exploration' will continue in earnest!
 
Repeat until at least three fixes have been obtained. This would then allow an explorer to get a rough idea of the hyperspace jump.
That explorer would then hyperspace to the unknown star, and would emerge some distance away (say 10,000 ls).
...and what happens when there's an "unknown star" where there aren't three nearby systems - this will happen in less dense areas of the galaxy, and will happen a lot around the edges and surfaces of the galaxy?

Maybe I should be a game designer :p
...or maybe not. ;)

-- Pete.
 
Just putting this out there because I remembered it, but I seem to recall somewhere that there are dark systems that don't show up on the galactic map. You can apparently reach them if your hyperdrive malfunctions. Apparently these systems can exist even in the midst of civilized space and nobody knows they are there. It's reasonable to believe this as well - some star types are so cool they wouldn't be visible even from the next star system over. It can sometimes be hard enough to spot brown dwarfs with your eye even within the same system. Assuming the systems that appear on the map are the result of a combination of the efforts of explorers and remote identification and planet detection via remote telescopes, one could assume that some star systems, even relatively close ones, may still be undetectable until you're literally right on top of them. If these systems are real, maybe we've underestimated FD's ability to hide stuff under our noses. Can anyone confirm these systems exist? I think if these systems existed, finding them and charting them would add another interesting dimension to exploration. Of course, we'd need to have some way to actually do it. As far as I know, it's not possible to force a misjump (yet).
 
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Just putting this out there because I remembered it, but I seem to recall somewhere that there are dark systems that don't show up on the galactic map. You can apparently reach them if your hyperdrive malfunctions. Apparently these systems can exist even in the midst of civilized space and nobody knows they are there. It's reasonable to believe this as well - some star types are so cool they wouldn't be visible even from the next star system over. It can sometimes be hard enough to spot brown dwarfs with your eye even within the same system. If these systems are real, maybe we've underestimated FD's ability to hide stuff under our noses. Can anyone confirm these systems exist? I think if these systems existed, finding them and charting them would add another interesting dimension to exploration.

there has been talking about it, but i don't think they are ingame.
 
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