Is Exploration too easy? Galactic center reached already before launch

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yea indeed. thanks for pointing that out. i've never thought about it much tbh, but of course it's no longer a really coherent, believable system at this point.

and i'm still wondering how FD sees this at what they will do if anything.
- either it's intended for some reason and they are fine with it.
- or they agree and change it for the release.

but that leaves 2 more weeks, and at the current pace, at which new discovery threads are posted, it will not take much longer than those 2 weeks and many iconic places will be discovered.
now if they nerf it for release and make a full wipe, would that mean we then need months to "re-discover" places that have already been reached in gamma?

Yep - the joy of discovery has been removed, and now exploration is just another grind.....
 
Yep - the joy of discovery has been removed, and now exploration is just another grind.....

Surely it would always be a grind, unless there was interesting things to do/discover? ie: If every system is nigh on the same as the last 30 you visited, then what's the incentive/reward?

If you start to notice every system matches the previous few dozen you've visited, and worse still you realise there is nothing else threatening to be found? How quickly will the incentive to keep looking last?

I know that sounds a little harsh/cynical, but I'm trying to be frank about the matter.
 
Surely it would always be a grind, unless there was interesting things to do/discover? ie: If every system is nigh on the same as the last 30 you visited, then what's the incentive/reward?

If you start to notice every system matches the previous few dozen you've visited, and worse still you realise there is nothing else threatening to be found? How quickly will the incentive to keep looking last?

I know that sounds a little harsh/cynical, but I'm trying to be frank about the matter.

I don't think its cynical. Its exactly like you described it. I've explored a few hundred systems since premium beta and at this point i can't find anything interesting anymore. There is just nothing special out there but npc-ships you are going to meet even if you're in the core at sagittarius a.

I mean... what explorer did not dream of getting to sagittarius a only to be interdicted by a sidewinder? The least we can hope for is to not getting fined for shooting him first! :D
 
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I don't think its cynical. Its exactly like this. I've explored a few hundred systems since premium beta and at this point i can't find anything interesting anymore.
This has alwasys been my fear... Hopefully on release more unique/unusual things will pop up to reward exploration!
 
Well I'm not too worried, I do think it sounds like the exploration mechanics could use a little more depth and I'm not sure that's going to happen before release. Looking at the design documents, it's apparent that exploration in uncharted space (without a hyperspace beacon?) is intended to have an additional step that makes exploring beyond the bounds of human space a more complex undertaking with miss-jumps and so on. As far as I know that's not currently in the game.

I do fully expect that Frontier will continue to add content in the rest of the galaxy (and fortunately with procedural generation there's a lot they can add that will work even if some pilots have already explored some systems). Procedural generation is always more interesting when the content, rather than undifferentiated randomness, has significant spikes and unique weirdness. I think it's related to the Pareto principal.
 
what was planned:
In Elite: Dangerous explorers are players who travel out into undiscovered areas of the galaxy, hoping to find previously undiscovered systems and locations. Explorers scan and record data wherever they go, and can sell that data on to various interested authorities. Explorers can also sell on data they have discovered to other players, allowing them to sell the co-ordinates of a valuable find to the highest bidder, or keep their discoveries to exploit for themselves.
Explorer players must discover different points of interest using different methods

Explorer players’ main method of making money is through selling details of points of interest they discover
Points of interest players can discover include:
Star Systems
Dark Systems (systems without a star, but other features)
Stars
Planets
Asteroids, comets
Moons
Structures
Other Phenomena

These Discovered locations may include:
Secret Locations
Resources
Events/Missions (time limited and permenant)
Beauty spots (usually attached to other entities)
Messages/Beacons

Players explore to build up the details on their galaxy map
When starting a new commander the player will have some details on their galaxy map
This will allow the player to travel to any locations they have map data to, without having to explore

Players can buy map data from authorities to expand their ships computers library of maps
New map data will allow the player to travel to new locations without needing to explore
Map data that is bought from authorities is not to the highest level of detail and can be improved with player gathered data
Map data includes hyperspace routes to systems and major points of interest in that system

Players can use scanning equipment and probes to detect systems and record new hyperspace routes
Scanners are used to detect any nearby systems that are within the players jump range
Scanners will give the player a vague indication of the direction of a system
High end scanners can give the player a better details of the system they have detected (is it a star, an asteroid field etc.)

Players can then launch hyperspace probes that will give the player more information on the part of space they are looking at
Probes will give the player heat-map style data to help guide the player to the correct co-ordinates for a jump
Different probe ammo can provide different information, or react based on objects in the target system

Using the data they have gathered the player must align their ship as best they can with the target system and activate the hyperdrive to jump to the system
The player’s ship records data of any successful jumps the player makes
The pilots federation will always pay players for the first successful jump they make using the exploration method (If the player bought the map data for the jump they cannot sell the data), even if the player is not the first person ever to make the jump (the pilots federation use the data to improve their telemetry and keep maps up to date)
If the player is the first person to ever make the journey they receive a bonus for discovering the hyperspace route
The closer the player lines up their jump to the target system, the higher quality the data the players ship will gather on the jump. Higher quality data is worth more money when sold to authorities

If a player’s jump is not accurate enough they may suffer a miss jump
Longer distance jumps require a higher level of accuracy
A systems contents may also affect how accurate a players jump must be to avoid mis-jumping




Players use scanners to detect points of interest within systems
The player’s scanners detect various points of interest around the player
It takes time for players scanners to detect points of interest
Player’s proximity to a point of interest can affect the time it takes to detect
Players ship facing can affect the time it takes to detect a point of interest (e.g. pointing my ship at a undiscovered point of interest will allow me to scan it faster)

Different types of points of interest can require different player actions to detect
For example to detect a mineral rich formation of asteroids the player must launch probes around an asteroid field
The probes provide a cross section from their perspective of the asteroid field they’re launched at
Each additional probe the player uses provides more details on the target asteroid field

The player uses their scanner to view the data from the probes, and must tag the areas with the highest concentration of minerals in the field
Once this process is complete the point of interest is completed
The quality of the players scan of the area affects the value of the data
The quality of the player’s scan can affect the amount and type of materials found in the asteroids



Players can sell information they have gathered to other players as well as authorities. This is done through a trade interface similar to the trade goods trading interface. Players can sell hyperspace routes from their location to any single system they have explored to. The purchasing player then offers a price (this can be 0 if it is a gift), and if both players are satisfied they agree to the trade. Players can also trade in system data including locations of points of interest using the same method.
I’d like to gauge player interest in a community driven photography contest, which would be another way of explorers earning money.

Players can take photographs (essentially screenshots) from their view ports (with and without cockpit and GUI etc)
Player photographs can be submitted to a regular photography contest
Players can only submit one photograph each

Players can vote on a selection of the best photographs
The player(s) who get the most votes wins the competition
The winner gets a (in game) cash prize (plus prizes for 2nd 3rd most weird etc.)
The photograph (and other user submissions) will be used in appropriate places in the game (billboards, news papers, etc.)



Players who decide to go exploring are jumping into the unknown, and without high end kit, often with little to no knowledge of the dangers they are jumping in to. Alongside the risk of encountering hostility when jumping to an unknown system, explorers scanners attract a lot of attention, generating lots of heat. Explorer ships will need to be prepared to face hostile activity when exploring, and players need to be ready to fight for their claims or run for their lives.

Issues
Will exploration remain interesting and profitable long term?
What other things can players discover in a system that have value to sell?
What could the scanning process be for those discoverables?
Will players risk scanning for hyperspace routes or just buy data?



what we got:
fly around and point at stuff post about it on forum

Yeah, current implementation is so depressing :-(
I will probably still do some exploration, hoping to find interesting stuff but currently the process is so lacklaster and uninvolving that i cant see myslef doing it for long. And exlporation was supposed to be my main activity...
 
Harry Stone said:
Please please don't make exploration any more difficult than it already is! Do some first before questioning the game because a handful of power players owned a mechanic. For the rest of us mortals it's hard enough!

I agree. That is, the spaceship you start with can only reach a handful of systems each jump. Don't know how far other ships can jump.

We are talking about two different things here. No one in this thread is talking about limiting jump ranges. So rest easy :)

But we ARE talking about limiting the total number of jumps you can do before your ship needs servicing in a star port (among other things).
 
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If we were limited to only pre-explored stars at launch, and the remainder were not shown on the galaxy map until a route had been found, then exploration could be something like this:

Scan a nearby star (using a scanner specifically for the purpose). This gives approx distance, and a spectral analysis readout.
Jump to a neighboring system and find the same star (using a match of the spectral analysis conducted previously).
Repeat until at least three fixes have been obtained. This would then allow an explorer to get a rough idea of the hyperspace jump.
That explorer would then hyperspace to the unknown star, and would emerge some distance away (say 10,000 ls).
FSD close to the star to drop a nav beacon, which provides a better fix for subsequent explorers to follow.

Needing at least three position fixes beforehand would naturally limit the rate at which new locations could be uncovered (having more would enable the initial hyperjump to be closer).

I just thought of that of the top of my head, but to me, it seems a better exploration mechanic that what we have currently.

Maybe I should be a game designer :p


...and what happens when there's an "unknown star" where there aren't three nearby systems - this will happen in less dense areas of the galaxy, and will happen a lot around the edges and surfaces of the galaxy?


-- Pete.

What you do mean by 'an unknown star'? With the method I outlined above, they're all 'unknown stars' until someone establishes a route to them. If it's not possible to get three fixes from known locations, then find another route to circumvent the dead-end. Once that star has been bypassed by other routes, it could then be possible to get a second/third fix from behind it, resulting in a new (valuable) shortcut.

And it could be be done so only one fix is necessary, although in that case, jumping to the target star with just one position fix should be highly risky, and the intrepid explorer could find themselves 2,000,000 or more light-seconds away from the star when they emerge from hyperspace, leaving them stranded. In that scenario though, someone will eventually be successful. Think of the discovery of the New World. In popular culture, Columbus apparently discovered it, but how many lost fisherman got blown off course, and (of those that didn't die at sea) ended up in a strange and distant land (before they probably got killed by the natives). We just don't know, because we never heard from them again.

At the moment, exploration doesn't feel like exploration to me, because all the 'roads' are already there. Getting from A to (distant) B is more like taking a long trip on a highway, with all the road-signs present (the Galactic map), telling you where to go.

Exploration should be about finding those routes, even if it's just hopping from system to (new) system as the fixes are established. The surveyors follow after, using their specialist equipment to conduct scans of each new system, looking for those golden asteroids. That isn't to say that an explorer cannot also be a surveyor though.

How may Nav beacons an explorer could carry would also limit the rate of expansion, so Nav beacons would be a necessary provision for an explorer.
 
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What you do mean by 'an unknown star'? With the method I outlined above, they're all 'unknown stars' until someone establishes a route to them. If it's not possible to get three fixes from known locations, then find another route to circumvent the dead-end. Once that star has been bypassed by other routes, it could then be possible to get a second/third fix from behind it, resulting in a new (valuable) shortcut.

And it could be be done so only one fix is necessary, although in that case, jumping to the target star with just one position fix should be highly risky, and the intrepid explorer could find themselves 2,000,000 or more light-seconds away from the star when they emerge from hyperspace, leaving them stranded. In that scenario though, someone will eventually be successful. Think of the discovery of the New World. In popular culture, Columbus apparently discovered it, but how many lost fisherman got blown off course, and (of those that didn't die at sea) ended up in a strange and distant land (before they probably got killed by the natives). We just don't know, because we never heard from them again.

At the moment, exploration doesn't feel like exploration to me, because all the 'roads' are already there. Getting from A to (distant) B is more like taking a long trip on a highway, with all the road-signs present (the Galactic map), telling you where to go.

Exploration should be about finding those routes, even if it's just hopping from system to (new) system as the fixes are established. The surveyors follow after, using their specialist equipment to conduct scans of each new system, looking for those golden asteroids. That isn't to say that an explorer cannot also be a surveyor though.

How may Nav beacons an explorer could carry would also limit the rate of expansion, so Nav beacons would be a necessary provision for an explorer.
exactly! take the discovery of new hyperspace routes and systems out of the surveyor role.
surveyors can all individually scan the same planet and get paid for it but the real discovery should only be made once (or maybe once per faction)
and YES, bring back the nav beacon! it will also allow players to blockade systems if they want, gameplay/emergent gameplay is just SO nerfed.
 
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The black hole in Space Engine does look nicer with a cool effect when you get very close. ED doesn't have that.

Nope, same effect. It just looks more interesting because in Space Engine you have a less uniform background glow in the starscape.

It doesn't have to be as detailed as the movie. An accretion disc would be a major improvement.

Takes time to program.

Of course it takes time. It would be a lot better if they added more variation of existing station interiors, more random events, rare anomalies, artifacts to discover in deep space, and more random scenarios with NPCs (now it's only attack, defend or escape). The Mechanics are in Gamma that can be expanded with more content.

It's about having a decent amount of variation and content to keep people interested for a long time. Now after you visited some dozen solar systems you've seen every major peace of content and game mechanic. Then the game recycles the same limited content.

And all that content, as you say, takes a lot of time to create. But you're not giving them that time; you want it all NOW.

The other way to extend a game's replayability is to let the players make their own fun. However, Frontier doesn't provide the necessary social tools for that (group missions, full trade between players, slaved drives, system chat etc).

Takes time, but you want it NOW.

There have been MMO space sims before ED: Jumpgate Evolution, Eve Online, Black Prophecy. The only differences are that ED has an awesome scientifically accurate, immersive, procedural simulation of the whole galaxy. The star systems don't have much content and random events though.

In my opinion the biggest issues are:
1. The star systems lack content and variation. Such as the guy who reached the center of the galaxy, what did he find? An underwhelming black hole distortion effect. The black hole posed no danger or radiation hazard. And the same distress beacon with a spawned NPC fighter that shouldn't be there. The whole thing is underwhelming.
2. Too few random events with NPC encounters. They can only interact with players through combat.
3. Missing multiplayer features means many people won't play it for more than a couple of weeks and people will criticize it.

The new players who will come here after release will complain about all that too if there's still little content and no decent social tools for an MMO.

Yeah well maybe new players need to realise that this is a work in progress. You make valid points --except for wanting it all, NOW. You can't have it NOW. You'll have to wait. It's not good enough for you? Come back in a year.
.
Star Citizen did it right, alright. They've got nothing yet but they're showing some pretty pictures and people are wetting themselves with excitement and buying at a hundred plus dollars a pop ships that don't exist and cannot be flown in a game that still has to be built. Elite Dangerous has a working game, ferchrissakes, that you can play, and it's not enough. Just go to Star Citizen. Look. Look at the pretty pictures. Look at the cut scene videos. Let's pretend that it's more than just some concept renders. Let's lambast Frontier for actually building a solid foundation first; for building a game, not just pretty pictures. Because style matters more than substance; spoon fed CGI matter more than a stage that you can project your own imagination on.
 
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Don't Explore & Drink too Much Beer

I really thought I was doing well, I had explored several systems, but could not work out why my damn scanner was not doing as it should in this new system? Eventually I realised I had been here earlier.....err and forgotten. I will log off and accept short term memory loss and beer go hand in hand. I like this game!:D
 
I would have hoped that to reach the centre would have required at least a team effort, maybe having fuel transfer between ships possible, and a fleet of ships setting off for the long journey, maybe some having to drop back and refuel to go pass it on to others, like a continues chain. Also some hazards along the way, badass factions to get past, maybe team triangulation to find hidden hyper jump routes, just more than a guy doing it in less than a week with one ship.
 
I would have hoped that to reach the centre would have required at least a team effort, maybe having fuel transfer between ships possible, and a fleet of ships setting off for the long journey, maybe some having to drop back and refuel to go pass it on to others, like a continues chain. Also some hazards along the way, badass factions to get past, maybe team triangulation to find hidden hyper jump routes, just more than a guy doing it in less than a week with one ship.
well with the DDF mechanics missing...all we now have is:
a stage that you can project your own imagination on.
(well we certainly have that! rofl)
I really thought I was doing well, I had explored several systems, but could not work out why my damn scanner was not doing as it should in this new system? Eventually I realised I had been here earlier.....err and forgotten. I will log off and accept short term memory loss and beer go hand in hand. I like this game!:D
We have found a solution to compensate for the lack of mechanics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
fantasize and get pished as a newt
Yeah well maybe new players need to realise that this is a work in progress.
is that your suggested buyer beware disclaimer message to potential new customers?
 
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We have found a solution to compensate for the lack of mechanics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
fantasize and get pished as a newt

Hey, it worked in the 8-bit days. :p


is that your suggested buyer beware disclaimer message to potential new customers?

It would be my description of the game: a continuously developing and expanding stage for space trading, exploring, bounty hunting etc. Don't like what you see now? Come back in a year.
 
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I would agree with that. But the thing to remember here, and this keeps getting missed for some reason, is that these are long term plans and not all of that stuff will be available on the 16th. That doesn't mean that development has ceased.

Uh, yeah, but nearly NONE of it it there, actually. I'm fine with "ongoing development" but I have the feeling what will come will be gated behind expansions, in effect making Elite a 200+€ game. The more it advances, the more it all starts to look like a giant scam.

Takes time to program.
you want it all NOW
Takes time, but you want it NOW.
--except for wanting it all, NOW. You can't have it NOW
So why in the nine hells is the game released ? That's the point. People want a complete game, because Frontier asks for the full price of a game. If the game costs 50€, can I pay 5€ every time I'm getting 10% of the complete game otherwise ? No I can't. FD just is delivering an extremely expensive beta shell, not a game.
 
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as some probably have seen, the centre has already been reached
kudos to Zion Ravescene, infos in this thread (spoilers incl.)

now my question is, has FD planned or expected this?
from earlier interviews and dev diaries and the DDF it sounded very different.
exploration sounded like a real challenge, which would need proper planning and some luck too
the centre was supposed to be very difficult to reach, if at all

with mechanics like jump failures and searching for jump routes as well as finding the right celestial bodies to refuel this seemed plausible to take a very long time and maybe even need a team of pilots

now is that it? does exploration need new balance?
it surely would benefit from more mechanics, which we wont get till release.
how long will it take before many to most known interesting places will be reached? 1 more month?
are there enough interesting spots out there to keep exploration interesting for a longer time?

just a few question i ask myself atm, and bit of dissapointment.

In my view exploration in its present form is far too easy, with low reward! OK you can trek "solo" across vast expanses of the galaxy with a trusty fuel scoop, but at the end of the day all the galaxies begin to look the same and dare I say it, start to get a little tedious! Especially when you get interdicted by an NPC, for the umteenth time, a 1000 ly into the boondocks? In my view there should be "hazards" and "Huge Riches" out there to be found......... in the form of other Life Forms, Remote Pirate Groups and Rare Booty! Most of all the ability to work as a team in Open Play, with the tools that a good MMO should give you to encourage proper exploration and colonisation!
 
In my view exploration in its present form is far too easy, with low reward! OK you can trek "solo" across vast expanses of the galaxy with a trusty fuel scoop, but at the end of the day all the galaxies begin to look the same and dare I say it, start to get a little tedious! Especially when you get interdicted by an NPC, for the umteenth time, a 1000 ly into the boondocks? In my view there should be "hazards" and "Huge Riches" out there to be found......... in the form of other Life Forms, Remote Pirate Groups and Rare Booty! Most of all the ability to work as a team in Open Play, with the tools that a good MMO should give you to encourage proper exploration and colonisation!

That's something I've aired my concerns about a couple of times (even just in this thread)... I sincerely hope my concerns are unfounded!

Surely it would always be a grind, unless there was interesting things to do/discover? ie: If every system is nigh on the same as the last 30 you visited, then what's the incentive/reward?

If you start to notice every system matches the previous few dozen you've visited, and worse still you realise there is nothing else threatening to be found? How quickly will the incentive to keep looking last?

I know that sounds a little harsh/cynical, but I'm trying to be frank about the matter.
Indeed the engine has given us some wonderful simulations of planets, stars and other basic stellar objects. But if every system turns out to be (excuse the simplification) more of the same, and people realise every system will simply be a different throw of the same dice, IMHO exploration will soon lose much of its interest.

There needs to be things that stand out. Those one in a thousand objects/views. FD mentioned such things a long time ago, but I've heard little/nothing since.

As I said before, my fear is we will have another Generation Ship syndrone from Elite in ED.
And even more worrying is not a single report of anything out of the norm... ie: Not a single "rare" event or sight? ie: The huge worry every system is simply a variation on the previous you've seen...

If you know every system you visit will be a mixture of different orbital paths and different colors, does the drive to explorer diminish? Imagine if one of these explorers had reported an ice moon spewing out a stream/cloud of ice form active geiser? Or a strange asteroid which seems to have tunnels drilled into it you can fly/explorer around?

It doesn't worry me someone has already reached the core... It worries me they didn't report a single thing that stood out on the trip!
Yep, there absolutely needs to be inventive/unqiue content & events out there (like you've suggested). Without them people will quickly realise exploration is little more than variation on a common theme.
Unless there is actually unique(ish) stuff to actually find/see in systems, for me exploration becomes little more than a tick box. Been there? Tick! Been there? Tick!

With visiting/exploring remote systems there needs to be the (rare) chance/risk of finding something unique and/or special. To me this must be pretty much hand crafted items, and/or, very special things built into the engine.

FD mentioned along time ago such stuff would exist I believe, but as yet I don't believe anyone has found such a thing. Maybe they will not be enabled until release.

But without them, systems - as pretty as they are - are pretty much just variations on a theme... and after you've seen 100, I doubt the 101st will hold must interest... Unless, there is the risk that 1 in every few hundred to so holds something truly interesting! Without that anticipation/risk, something is missing IMHO.
 
In my view exploration in its present form is far too easy, with low reward! OK you can trek "solo" across vast expanses of the galaxy with a trusty fuel scoop, but at the end of the day all the galaxies begin to look the same and dare I say it, start to get a little tedious! Especially when you get interdicted by an NPC, for the umteenth time, a 1000 ly into the boondocks? In my view there should be "hazards" and "Huge Riches" out there to be found......... in the form of other Life Forms, Remote Pirate Groups and Rare Booty! Most of all the ability to work as a team in Open Play, with the tools that a good MMO should give you to encourage proper exploration and colonisation!

I am in total agreement mate. I really feel for the great expedition group: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38013. They spent months planning for this, and provided a lot of publicity for Frontier. I feel they have been let down by them.
Things will probably be different after release, but the fact still remains...somebody has already been there....
 
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