Make Trading less 17th Century....simple, easy, small change
- Thread starter Jeheil
- Start date
I am sorry, I do not understand your point. Markets by definition are places to buy and sell goods. They exist locally, as there is not just trade between starports but within the port itself. With the development of the proposed system, initially the data would be static, however, after a short while, the demand would be for the data to become live. From there it is a short step to allowing market speculation, buying and selling to influence the directions of markets. That is not what the game is about. I proposed the news ticker to allow for informed decisions, but allowing for the risk to still be present. The added benefit, as I see it to a news ticker, with market relevant information, is that, as you travel, new opportunities would become apparent, motivating the player to move away from the comfort of trading routes with clearly defined profits into seeking new markets, new opportunities, relieving the 'grind' from trade.
The OP proposal negates the risk, due to the short travel time between systems. To all intents and purposes the data is live, as generally, in this game trade is done between local systems, one or two jumps away. The current system allows for the markets to have oddities. Such as a net importer of Gold has a lower price for the product than a nearby net exporter. With market data in hand, these systems would be avoided, rather than a risk being taken, failing and seeking a new market.
As i said, build your spreadsheets, collate your tables, as you wish, but you put the effort in, to obtain the reward.
62nd Rule of acquisition: The riskier the road, the greater the profit.
The OP proposal negates the risk, due to the short travel time between systems. To all intents and purposes the data is live, as generally, in this game trade is done between local systems, one or two jumps away. The current system allows for the markets to have oddities. Such as a net importer of Gold has a lower price for the product than a nearby net exporter. With market data in hand, these systems would be avoided, rather than a risk being taken, failing and seeking a new market.
As i said, build your spreadsheets, collate your tables, as you wish, but you put the effort in, to obtain the reward.
62nd Rule of acquisition: The riskier the road, the greater the profit.
Nothing to do with wits is it.
Either A : I write it down with quill and papyrus and kill the habitation of many squirrels as well as leave the geese short of feathers
OR B : MY YEAR 3300 COMPUTER IS CAPABLE OF REMEMBERING THE PRICES IT SAW 15 MINUTES AGO
There is ZERO...NONE...NO...NADA...ZIP difference in game mechanics in my computer recording data for me or me having to manually note it down.
Nothing to do with risk, wit, immersion, gameplay, cheating, exploits or buying a ship from Chris Roberts for $2500 (actual true recently released SC Madness)
In my humble opinion it is immersion breaking to have to pluck a goose, squeeze a squid and mulch some wood to record the <suppressed> market prices.
A point of clarification in case you misunderstood my OP. The prices it shows are NOT real time, they are the prices that you saw when you were last there (hence the time indicator) OR the prices you purchased as they were when you purchased the price. Perhaps the clarification demonstrates the ZERO effect on wit or risk.
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Whilst I agree with the OP on the remember last data we saw cos we were there, I also like the idea of news being "real" ie having a probable effect on the markets.
OTOH, I'm sure this was a pretty nice feature of Space Trader on the Palm. "Plague in xxx"
I believe DB(OBE) doesn't want a "Merchant of Venice" in space which is one reason why we don't have warehouses or storage or have complex trading tools, but there is going to be some overlap!
OTOH, I'm sure this was a pretty nice feature of Space Trader on the Palm. "Plague in xxx"
I believe DB(OBE) doesn't want a "Merchant of Venice" in space which is one reason why we don't have warehouses or storage or have complex trading tools, but there is going to be some overlap!
I'm pretty sure that the plans for a ships log included recording the trade data for stations you visited.
Hopefully those plans will be realised at some point.
If they are then adding quick access to this information from the trade screen seems a reasonable time saving addition.
If they don't then I guess back to lots of pen and paper, or a tablet or alt-tabing to a spreadsheet... I'd prefer to avoid that but have to see how it goes. I'm not holding out much hope in the short term but perhaps later we will have these things.
Hopefully those plans will be realised at some point.
If they are then adding quick access to this information from the trade screen seems a reasonable time saving addition.
If they don't then I guess back to lots of pen and paper, or a tablet or alt-tabing to a spreadsheet... I'd prefer to avoid that but have to see how it goes. I'm not holding out much hope in the short term but perhaps later we will have these things.
I really do like the idea of a news ticker in stations, it'd be more visible than the Galnet news. I've also never understood why we see down trending commodities, but not their opposite. Where I disagree with you is that my experience of trading so far has seen all profitable trade routes collapse in a matter of days. I may be able to make 1.5mill cr./hr+ at a route's peak but averaged over its lifetime, this will drop significantly. I've had routes <5ly long and others >40ly and in the two weeks since Gamma was released I have moved four times with around 25ly between each trade area.
I've chosen to specialise in trading multiple, high profit commodities along an established route; you could see me as a 34th century spice trader. I'm assuming, and please forgive me if I'm mistaken, that your style of play is more like being an itinerant pedlar, buying goods cheaply when you find them and then trusting your wits to turn a profit on the next jump.
I don't see anything wrong with either approach to trading, such is the diversity and scope of E
and what makes it such a great game. What I do have a problem with is the argument that I can't have access to the static prices for a system I visited or bought trade data for within the last 24 hours. There's only too much suspension of disbelief before things like this don't make sense.Slapping with the left glove indicates a duel to "wig removal" with unstrapped codpieces in the bath room, slapping with the right glove indicates a duel to the "smearing of lipstick" behind the stables.
Which do you choose sir?
Which do you choose sir?
I am well aware of the current capabilities of current IT communications. I am simply pointing out that, within the world, that this game provides, this information you wish to have does not exist. This is by design, within the game, and game lore. The information is wiped from the databanks of your ship's computer when you leave the station. You can replicate the data, via tablet, laptop, papyrus or stone tablet, as you see fit. You can even use crowd sourced databases such as Slopey's if you wish.
To be sure, I read and fully understood what you were asking for, historical data, what I pointed out was that this would be the thin end of a very pernicious wedge, to drive in automated tools for creating credits, not where, I believe, anyone wants to go.
There are more than sufficient tools in the game at present to allow anyone with more than sawdust between their ears, to make their way in the game, put in a little effort to develop the skills you need for the path you chose and reap them.
You and I may never agree on this, and that is fine, the world is full of people who disagree, but this game, like the world is what it is, and we adapt.
22nd Rule of Acquisition: A wise man can hear profit in the wind.
To be sure, I read and fully understood what you were asking for, historical data, what I pointed out was that this would be the thin end of a very pernicious wedge, to drive in automated tools for creating credits, not where, I believe, anyone wants to go.
There are more than sufficient tools in the game at present to allow anyone with more than sawdust between their ears, to make their way in the game, put in a little effort to develop the skills you need for the path you chose and reap them.
You and I may never agree on this, and that is fine, the world is full of people who disagree, but this game, like the world is what it is, and we adapt.
22nd Rule of Acquisition: A wise man can hear profit in the wind.
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We don't need to agree, when one of us is incorrect (there is no nice way of saying that without compromising with a falsehood).
Read the DDR, they fully intend to implement a trading computer showing local prices (no description of said rules). There is no game lore that says traders computers are EMP'd on station exit.
There is no rhyme nor reason to it.
I love ED, but I don't blindly defend it sans reason.
69th Rule of Acquisition : Read the DDR
And by way of apology if that sounded rude, some humour for you.
68th Rule of Acquisition : You do me, I owe you one
'Game lore' isn't something that can be relied upon and nothing outside of the current incarnation of the Elite universe can be regarded as such. For example, where are all the alien cat people? Where are the escape capsules, stardreamers and energy bombs? Why can't I jump into a system and request instantaneous trade information from a station before jumping out in search of a better one? The 'game lore' that you're referring to is a consequence of the limited capabilities of the IT systems of yester year and in E
this isn't an issue.As for 'game design' we don't have the game yet. We don't know how trading is going to be tweaked/fixed before the 16th (did anyone else notice that certain commodities have the *same* average price?) or how the game will evolve as there appears to be so much more to come.
I completely agree.
I totally agree with the OP, the trading system is messed up. If indeed we are in the year 3300 then why are we having to use pen and paper to makes notes of station prices. If we as humans in the year 3300 can make supercruise and space travel a viable living option surely we can make a computer to remember the market prices from the last few stations we visited.
I know a lot of people want this Elite to be like the old elite, me included as someone who played the original. But we need to add something else into this one, a better trading system is one. I for one love this game but don't really have the time nor patience to fly, dock, check, fly somewhere else, dock, check, oh sod it ill just get it for free as a pirate. I don't want it handed to me on a plate either, all I want is a better trading game mechanic than we have.
I know a lot of people want this Elite to be like the old elite, me included as someone who played the original. But we need to add something else into this one, a better trading system is one. I for one love this game but don't really have the time nor patience to fly, dock, check, fly somewhere else, dock, check, oh sod it ill just get it for free as a pirate. I don't want it handed to me on a plate either, all I want is a better trading game mechanic than we have.
This is the way I expected purchased trade data to work. Seems insane that we are still left guessing vaguely at the cost of something after paying money to get the data.
Trade computer should work like this, in my opinion.
1) The trade computer can store price data for commodities. It has a limited storage, for example, 50 stations worth of data can be stored.
2) Visiting a station (or alternatively, opening the commodity market) adds commodity data to your computer. If there is empty space, it is simply added, and time stamped. If the memory is full, the oldest data is removed, and this data added.
3) Purchasing trade data is the equivalent of adding data by visiting, but the data may already be somewhat out of date (0 to 12 hours?). The data age is shown before the player purchases the data. The data is added with the timestamp of when it was originally created, not when you added it to your computer. Remote data cannot be purchased if the player has newer data for that market already stored.
4) Data older than a certain limit (for example, 24 hours), is automatically removed from your computer as "stale" data.
5) Data from markets can be deleted individually, or the entire computer cleared, if desired.
6) Players can choose to "pin" market data. This means that this data will not be removed from the computer automatically, either by new data, or by becoming too old. Also, clearing the entire computer will not clear pinned data. Pinned Data can be unpinned, or deleted individually. Pinned data can be updated by newer data from the same market, from either visiting the market or purchased data.
7) When viewing a local market, stored data from another market can be used for comparison. The data will display the sell and buy price for the selected stored market data. Following the stored sell price, in brackets, will be a difference from the current stations buy price, for that commodity. Following the stored buy price, in brackets, will be the difference from the current stations sell price. Positive numbers will be in green, negative numbers in red. The largest positive difference for each column has it's cell background also coloured green, to quickly show the best trade.
8) Optionally, in the drop down to select market data for comparison, there could be green highlighting to show the most profitable station to trade with.
The primary focus of this is to reduce the amount of writing and calculation that the trader has to do, while not allowing them to completely avoid traveling to get the best information about trading. I would suggest, even, that with this system, it would be viable to remove altogether, the purchase of remote data from other systems, as that allows someone to sit in their preferred trade hub, or home base, and purchase all remote data possible to decide on their trading, without having to explore for fresh data to find good trade routes.
Trade computer should work like this, in my opinion.
1) The trade computer can store price data for commodities. It has a limited storage, for example, 50 stations worth of data can be stored.
2) Visiting a station (or alternatively, opening the commodity market) adds commodity data to your computer. If there is empty space, it is simply added, and time stamped. If the memory is full, the oldest data is removed, and this data added.
3) Purchasing trade data is the equivalent of adding data by visiting, but the data may already be somewhat out of date (0 to 12 hours?). The data age is shown before the player purchases the data. The data is added with the timestamp of when it was originally created, not when you added it to your computer. Remote data cannot be purchased if the player has newer data for that market already stored.
4) Data older than a certain limit (for example, 24 hours), is automatically removed from your computer as "stale" data.
5) Data from markets can be deleted individually, or the entire computer cleared, if desired.
6) Players can choose to "pin" market data. This means that this data will not be removed from the computer automatically, either by new data, or by becoming too old. Also, clearing the entire computer will not clear pinned data. Pinned Data can be unpinned, or deleted individually. Pinned data can be updated by newer data from the same market, from either visiting the market or purchased data.
7) When viewing a local market, stored data from another market can be used for comparison. The data will display the sell and buy price for the selected stored market data. Following the stored sell price, in brackets, will be a difference from the current stations buy price, for that commodity. Following the stored buy price, in brackets, will be the difference from the current stations sell price. Positive numbers will be in green, negative numbers in red. The largest positive difference for each column has it's cell background also coloured green, to quickly show the best trade.
8) Optionally, in the drop down to select market data for comparison, there could be green highlighting to show the most profitable station to trade with.
The primary focus of this is to reduce the amount of writing and calculation that the trader has to do, while not allowing them to completely avoid traveling to get the best information about trading. I would suggest, even, that with this system, it would be viable to remove altogether, the purchase of remote data from other systems, as that allows someone to sit in their preferred trade hub, or home base, and purchase all remote data possible to decide on their trading, without having to explore for fresh data to find good trade routes.
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However you defend it, it's downright stupid that in 3300AD, trading computers don't exist, but we can crosscheck a random craft to see if it is wanted.
I have to agree when I bought trade data, I was expecting trade data - not a list of "does import/export" - this is pretty much worthless and can be worked out from the trade map or by just going there.
If I buy trade data I expect to see the current buy/sell price of items like I do when I log into any of my real life trading tools.
Maybe John Titor failed in his mission and they are still running on 68000's in the future?
If I buy trade data I expect to see the current buy/sell price of items like I do when I log into any of my real life trading tools.
Maybe John Titor failed in his mission and they are still running on 68000's in the future?
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But its no different to me writing it down... as below. The way it is already actively encourages players to stick to a profitable route. I would have preferred it actively encouraging me to move around more, but since the available information is already incorrect in terms of what economy types buy what etc, it makes moving around less desirable and much less profitable too.
I don't want external programs, I would rather the game accommodate a snapshot instead, IMO it would only add to the game making it more interesting in the long run.
Its not about difficulty making money either (I have made 16m in trading so far) but more about adding depth to the game.
There should be no need for external tools, but clearly there is. Every man and his dog has a method of making notes or using third party programs (I make notes)
I like this idea too
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Completely agree.
(Tapping sawdust from my ears) I have pencil, I have paper, I can write. This is historical data, exactly the same as the OP is suggesting is retained (perhaps for a very limited time or number of stations visited). The idea of trading is using information to make profit, that is how all markets work. All that is being suggested is some in game recording tool that would enhance immersion IMO. I do like the idea of a news ticker and would like to see that in game too.
OP have some rep
I don't see the logic in criticizing the simple mechanism proposed by the OP on the basis that it would somehow spoil gameplay, whilst encouraging the use of a tool that makes use of communal data not necessarily harvested by the pilot and which is therefore more likely to lead to exactly the situation you say you oppose.
Enhancing the commodity screen with personal data snapshots, whether the data is found by exploration or is purchased, is an elegant approach. Although not explicitly mentioned in either the DDF trading or log-keeping proposals it is completely in keeping with the spirit of those designs.
A module to add this function to the basic commodity display could also be offered in outfitting to expand the ship customization options for traders.
You mean something like this in the DD archives: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6299
- Market data availability
- When docked all available market data is available
- This may be modified by ranking
- When in system market prices are available
- Outside the system only general information is available
- Player’s trade history is available in detail
- Newsfeeds provide useful economic data for all systems
- When docked all available market data is available
- Market Data Content
- Historical data will be aggregated
- Full price data for limited time
- Then aggregated for full timeline
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